emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Greg Smith said:
I wondered if somebody would say that about chess.....
Motion to Change the beam trait.
- Thread starter Geekybiker
- Start date
I wondered if somebody would say that about chess.....
Twin-Linked Aldades
Mongoose
In the above numerical work, doesn`t the Drakh heavy raider have a 5+ instead of used 4+ dodge (no book near myself)?
CZuschlag
Mongoose
In UK Grandmaster Michael King's introduction to "Winning with the Najdorf", he counters:
"In terms of the mathematical games theory, chess is a game of complete information and Black's information is always greater -- by one move!"
Unfortunately, that isn't enough, at GM-level the sides are pretty badly balanced -- about 70:30 or worse for wins. Ususally, tournaments have two passes vs. every opponent, one with Black and one with White.
"In terms of the mathematical games theory, chess is a game of complete information and Black's information is always greater -- by one move!"
Unfortunately, that isn't enough, at GM-level the sides are pretty badly balanced -- about 70:30 or worse for wins. Ususally, tournaments have two passes vs. every opponent, one with Black and one with White.
CZ - your look at just how tough the hull 4 ships are is reasonable but ultimately objective at best and one-dimensional at worst. It's a good starting point but weapons loads, etc. need to be looked at more objectively if you are to compare them fairly. One example would be the Xorr (and all of the Vree for that matter) where SM and turreted/multi-facing weaponry is worth about an extra 25% of their value (well, the games designers/playtesters feel this anyway). The Xorr is actually probably the best Vree ship available all things considered although this doesn't prove that any of them are poor/good/too good.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Tank said:
chess is usually held up as being one of the most balanced games there is, I just wondered who'd point out that one side always goes first....
The original point which appears to have been lost is that game balance does not equal bland and boring. A heavily imbalanced game can be more boring than a balanced one
Tank
Mongoose
Your right game balance may not always be bland and boring but you dont want to play against a practically cloned fleet in different clothing.
The game blance in ACTA is set in the priority levels of ships and their respective abilities, its not supposed to come down to one on one from the outset really as this is a fleet based game with all the bumf that that entails.
The game blance in ACTA is set in the priority levels of ships and their respective abilities, its not supposed to come down to one on one from the outset really as this is a fleet based game with all the bumf that that entails.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Tank said:
Absolutely, agreed on both points.
I think ACTA has done a great job of making each fleet "different"
emperorpenguin said:
Game balance is not so much the problem - it's the balance within the priority levels (every War-level ship has to be balanced with all the others, even if it's "supposed" to be better). With the limited priority levels it can be difficult to introduce variety - for everything you add to a new ship at a given level, you have to take something away to keep it within artificial level constraints. Otherwise such things as making this or that weapon slightly better or worse would just be a matter of add or deduct a few points to "fix" any balance issues rather than having to tweak the ship stats themselves.
The PLs make it a lot simpler to choose forces, but in return they restrict a lot of the "authenticity" of the vessels - a Minbari war-level ship *should* be better than an EA war-level ship. With points values you'd just end up with (as a very simplistic example) the Minbari ships being 120 points each versus 100 for EA ships, and the Minbari player would field five against six EA ships in a tournament-style game.
Those of us who prefer scenario play can always happily set something up with three Minbari vessels escorting a smaller ship across the table and the Minbari aim being to get the smaller ship off the opposite edge while six EA vessels attack. Thats not really an issue because we can do that whatever the system for choosing ships in tournament games is, the real issue for us is the artificial "tweaking" of stats (that a lot of us think are perfectly realistic the way they are, even if they're not balanced) because of the need to fit the ships into priority levels without one being better than any other at the same level.
There's no space for a ship thats "better than Battle, not quite as good as War", even if such a thing exists in the canon of B5. If you can't do that, then ACTA is a game with pieces that look like B5 ships, as opposed to a game with pieces that represent B5 ships.
The best fix I can see here would be for Mongoose to keep ACTA the way it is (and continue tweaking ships to fit PLs in a balanced way) , and produce a completely seperate set of rules for "B5 space combat simulation", with the emphasis on simulation - it'd use all the exact same models, just a completely seperate set of rules (in other words - a whole new set of customers just for the price of producing a single book)
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Triggy,
Your evaluation of the Xorr is intriguing; unfortunately, I cannot agree with it. We have, separately, classified this as a mistake ship within my local group. You took a Xorr? You made a mistake...
We find it an explosion in a jar, rarely able to get close enough where its SM capability makes any difference at all. For example, consider the expected yield on it from 1 CAFed Omelos (which will happen, usually, at least to half the Xorrs when opposed by an equivalent number of Omelos).
14 dice of pulsars: 75% hit -> 10.5 hits -> 10.5/10.5 damage + 1.75 crits (typical crit is 1.1/2.0) -> 14.35/17 and Disruption Torpedoes can easily generate the remaining 3.85/3.
Even straight dice find this ship on the losing end:
14 puslars -- > 7 hits (other math same as before, just apply 7/10.5 factor): 9.57/11.33. D-torps: 2.67 hits --> 4.90/4.45 + 0.45 crits --> 5.89/6.25. Net: 15.46/17.58 is crippled and skeletoned by large amounts. How useful is SM going to be now?
Add to this the fact that a Torotha can hit it with an AJP bomb and virtually guarantee that it is crippled without so much as rolling a die! Insane for what is supposed to be an iconic ship, much less one considered good.
And how badly would you need SM anyways, the thing has two 90's and nothing over range 10 -- backing up makes no sense! SM is powerful when you get into the furball, we find the Xorr has absolutely no ability to stay in the furball to start with. One player I respect, by the name of Zach, saw the tournament list and immediately quit the game as making his models pointless. Without the Xixx and the Xaak, he found no combat ship in the fleet worthwhile in the slightest. We have tried, without success, to change his mind, by either example or argument. Only scouts have since made the cut. He, sadly, sold all his figurines last month, and swore off the system.
Your evaluation of the Xorr is intriguing; unfortunately, I cannot agree with it. We have, separately, classified this as a mistake ship within my local group. You took a Xorr? You made a mistake...
We find it an explosion in a jar, rarely able to get close enough where its SM capability makes any difference at all. For example, consider the expected yield on it from 1 CAFed Omelos (which will happen, usually, at least to half the Xorrs when opposed by an equivalent number of Omelos).
14 dice of pulsars: 75% hit -> 10.5 hits -> 10.5/10.5 damage + 1.75 crits (typical crit is 1.1/2.0) -> 14.35/17 and Disruption Torpedoes can easily generate the remaining 3.85/3.
Even straight dice find this ship on the losing end:
14 puslars -- > 7 hits (other math same as before, just apply 7/10.5 factor): 9.57/11.33. D-torps: 2.67 hits --> 4.90/4.45 + 0.45 crits --> 5.89/6.25. Net: 15.46/17.58 is crippled and skeletoned by large amounts. How useful is SM going to be now?
Add to this the fact that a Torotha can hit it with an AJP bomb and virtually guarantee that it is crippled without so much as rolling a die! Insane for what is supposed to be an iconic ship, much less one considered good.
And how badly would you need SM anyways, the thing has two 90's and nothing over range 10 -- backing up makes no sense! SM is powerful when you get into the furball, we find the Xorr has absolutely no ability to stay in the furball to start with. One player I respect, by the name of Zach, saw the tournament list and immediately quit the game as making his models pointless. Without the Xixx and the Xaak, he found no combat ship in the fleet worthwhile in the slightest. We have tried, without success, to change his mind, by either example or argument. Only scouts have since made the cut. He, sadly, sold all his figurines last month, and swore off the system.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
I agree with czuschlag on this one, to my mind the best Vree ships are the xixx and xaak, I don't rate the xorr at all
Xorr? Best? Hmm...
I respect you Triggy but on this one I believe your wrong. The ship cannot pass through the initial strike envelope of most opponents. It's max forward move is fifteen inches. With hull four and only eighteen damage points, a measly twelve to cripple, its simply not going to make it vs any beam capable or double damage ship. At skirmish or smaller the ship will have some use as you may survive and if you do in an uncrippled state and get behind, you can proceed to fight, but this is not a ship that can fill the ranks at raid or above where the eighteen inch and longer weapons begin to appear in significant numbers.
I do respect the ships weapons, ten dice of super ap is not to be laughed off. Six of those are even twin linked. However, against the interceptor races this ship will suffer. Most two interceptor ships will remove half or more of the expected hits. Add in the very short range of ten inches where most ships secondaries are getting perisouly close and you have a ship looking for a mission, or at least a ship looking for a mission it might survive.
Ripple
I respect you Triggy but on this one I believe your wrong. The ship cannot pass through the initial strike envelope of most opponents. It's max forward move is fifteen inches. With hull four and only eighteen damage points, a measly twelve to cripple, its simply not going to make it vs any beam capable or double damage ship. At skirmish or smaller the ship will have some use as you may survive and if you do in an uncrippled state and get behind, you can proceed to fight, but this is not a ship that can fill the ranks at raid or above where the eighteen inch and longer weapons begin to appear in significant numbers.
I do respect the ships weapons, ten dice of super ap is not to be laughed off. Six of those are even twin linked. However, against the interceptor races this ship will suffer. Most two interceptor ships will remove half or more of the expected hits. Add in the very short range of ten inches where most ships secondaries are getting perisouly close and you have a ship looking for a mission, or at least a ship looking for a mission it might survive.
Ripple
emperorpenguin said:
I wasn't actually looking at the SFoS lists so the only comparisons for the Xorr are the Xill, Vaarl and Xaar. None of these are fantastic for a mainstream fleet. You're probably right on how easy it is to destroy a Xorr in general and in larger games as my estimation of it is based upon assuming it gets in to the furball with the enemy (generally at low PLs to avoid big guns). At the moment the Vree are tough in tournaments and yes they need their variants more than perhaps any other list out there.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Why were the variant ships dropped from the tourney list, anyone know?
The Drazi only have 1 variant (the Strikehawk), and this even has its own different mini than the original ship! TBH I'm not even sure why its called a variant, it should be a different ship really.Reaverman said:But you cant have Varients tourney's. Mind you, saying that, the Drazi have varients in their fleet lists.
Similar threads
