More Balanced Player Races

[Darkholme]

So for my game; the players expressed interest in having fairly balanced player races.

I as the GM was interested in having them all use the same rolling method, so they could use Roll & Arrange, which doesnt really work well if youre rolling different dice for each stat.

So: Using Vikings as the Base, I decided all races get +6 total modifiers, and no more than +6 in any one score.

I designed the races with flat bonuses and penalties, and gave everyone the same fixed attribute total.

We ended up with Vikings, Elves, Dwarves, Gorilla-Men, Humans, Orcs (Elf+Gorilla.), Ourangutan-Men, and Nymphs.

Some had more negatives, some less, but the totals all equalled The defaults +6. *humans go +1 to 5 stats, and +2 to POW cause the player wanted the humans to do alot of magic.

Thoughts?

Any suggestions on how I could have done it better (it was an on-the-spot decision when the players were deciding on the races that would be on the world)?

 

[rust]

While I am not a fan of balanced races, I would see this as a
"player thing", so if the players think your solution is fine, go
with it. :wink:

Just out of curiosity, the vikings of the setting are non-humans ?

 

[alex_greene]

Someone, channelling Inigo Montoya, once told me that while I keep using the term, he did not think it meant what I thought it meant.

I learned, then, that "game balance" means "every player gets their shot," not "the strongest character gets nerfed to the level of the weakest character."

Even the lowliest of characters can bring something to the adventure, even if it is a wel-honed sense of when to fight and when to cut and run, really quickly, from a fight with an opponent that outclasses them. As long as they get to contribute, and not just sit there while the team's tanks grab all the glory for wading through a sea of mooks, swords swinging.

 

[Mixster]

Thoughts?

You, sir, are a genius.

I really like the idea, and I'm a fan of giving players both the roll and arrange method, a set of balanced races, and a little extra love.

I'm really interested in seeing what stats you have for each race.

 

[soltakss]

Personally, I'd change the Character Generation a bit anyway.

I'd have a Background Bonus that can be applied to any skills for the Background, a Profession Bonus that can be applied to any skills available to the Profession, a Free Point bonus that can be applied to any skills and a skill limit to ensure that they are not abused. That way, it should be possible to tailor a PC in a dynamic way rather than beign restricted to +10% this skill, +20% that skill.

As to races - it's difficult to balance creatures with vastly different stats. If you gave everyone a points build with the same points then you would get ducks with super INT/POW/DEX because of their low SIZ and trolls with high SIZ but every other stat being low. It is better to have a points total for each race individually and accept that some races have higher stats.

 

[Simulacrum]

Personally, I'd change the Character Generation a bit anyway.

I'd have a Background Bonus that can be applied to any skills for the Background, a Profession Bonus that can be applied to any skills available to the Profession, a Free Point bonus that can be applied to any skills and a skill limit to ensure that they are not abused. That way, it should be possible to tailor a PC in a dynamic way rather than beign restricted to +10% this skill, +20% that skill.

As to races - it's difficult to balance creatures with vastly different stats. If you gave everyone a points build with the same points then you would get ducks with super INT/POW/DEX because of their low SIZ and trolls with high SIZ but every other stat being low. It is better to have a points total for each race individually and accept that some races have higher stats.

I find myself agreeing with all of that. The Professional Skills are at present total +50%, so given FPS alocation is higher, don't define the character as much as they could. Even if you allowed a higher maximum allocation from FPS to a skill gained through Professional background (say allow +30 or more to that) with a lower cap on allocation to non-professional skills it would make the background more meaningful.

On creature balance I get that this matters in an 'assumed world' where there are not setting specific challenges for certain races - but I'm not a fan of straightjacketing all raises into the same total characteristic points. You don't have to balance by stats - it may be race x has less stats but gains special skills or abilities, or has some stuff they just can't do. where it's a problem is where you get some big characteristic dice, none at a lesser level than humans, and only buffs like 'can see perfectly well in the dark' rather than flaws like 'won't go into water and can never learn to swim' or 'take double damage from iron'. You might also advantage human characters by giving them 'cultural skills' that some 'non-humans' just don't have. by which I don't mean they are all primitive (which is a culture type rather than a handicap), I mean they actually get less skills in the Lores department or have a significant cap on social skills because their braqins work differently.

 

[Mixster]

On creature balance I get that this matters in an 'assumed world' where there are not setting specific challenges for certain races - but I'm not a fan of straightjacketing all raises into the same total characteristic points. You don't have to balance by stats - it may be race x has less stats but gains special skills or abilities, or has some stuff they just can't do. where it's a problem is where you get some big characteristic dice, none at a lesser level than humans, and only buffs like 'can see perfectly well in the dark' rather than flaws like 'won't go into water and can never learn to swim' or 'take double damage from iron'. You might also advantage human characters by giving them 'cultural skills' that some 'non-humans' just don't have. by which I don't mean they are all primitive (which is a culture type rather than a handicap), I mean they actually get less skills in the Lores department or have a significant cap on social skills because their braqins work differently.

I agree, the races don't need to be shoehorned into a certain amount of total skill points, but they could be good at some things while bad at others. Some races could be natural spell-casters, and others could naturally be better at other stuff.

Another design goal I'd have for making a bunch of balanced fantasy races would be that every race should be able to play every archetype. The fact that Halflings can't be Warriors if using the monsters of legend book annoys me a lot. I mean sure, they are probably better thieves, but there should still be some of them that attempt to take straight up fights, Don Quixote style.

 

[Loz]

Another design goal I'd have for making a bunch of balanced fantasy races would be that every race should be able to play every archetype. The fact that Halflings can't be Warriors if using the monsters of legend book annoys me a lot. I mean sure, they are probably better thieves, but there should still be some of them that attempt to take straight up fights, Don Quixote style.

I can't speak for the Monsters of Legend book, but Monster Coliseum, on which MoL is based, never placed such a restriction on halflings - and thievery is never mentioned. To quote from the text in MC:

Professions: As per civilised but with an emphasis on crafting and husbandry professions rather than militaristic ones (although Halfling warriors are no unknown).

Of course, MoL may be different.

 

[Mixster]

Professions: As per civilised but with an emphasis on crafting and husbandry professions rather than militaristic ones (although Halfling warriors are no unknown).

Of course, MoL may be different.

It wasn't because the book doesn't speak of it, but when you have a damage modifier of -1d4 to +0, you are a pretty bad warrior. I mean you can hardly damage anyone.

 

[rust]

It wasn't because the book doesn't speak of it, but when you have a damage modifier of -1d4 to +0, you are a pretty bad warrior. I mean you can hardly damage anyone.

Give that halfling a light crossbow, and he is just as dangerous as any
other crossbowman of any other race, doing the same 1D8 at a range
of 100 meters.

 

[Mixster]

It wasn't because the book doesn't speak of it, but when you have a damage modifier of -1d4 to +0, you are a pretty bad warrior. I mean you can hardly damage anyone.

Give that halfling a light crossbow, and he is just as dangerous as any
other crossbowman of any other race, doing the same 1D8 at a range
of 100 meters.

Except that other races can actually use bows or slings, that have a faster firing rate and the possibility of adding a strength modifier, as well as a better range.

 

[Darkholme]

As to races - it's difficult to balance creatures with vastly different stats. If you gave everyone a points build with the same points then you would get ducks with super INT/POW/DEX because of their low SIZ and trolls with high SIZ but every other stat being low. It is better to have a points total for each race individually and accept that some races have higher stats.

I'm inclined to agree with you.

The "Same Stat bonuses" was to appease the players, who asked for it.

I do think that roll+arrange is worth keeping though, so I'd like to see the races set up to use the same rolls with different modifiers (perhaps even rolled modifiers).

While I am not a fan of balanced races, I would see this as a
"player thing", so if the players think your solution is fine, go
with it. :wink:

Just out of curiosity, the vikings of the setting are non-humans ?

Yeah. When we were fleshing out the setting, players had the option of either making a new race or making a subrace (for cheaper). Vikings and Humans have completely unrelated origins; and therefore vikings and humans in this setting are as different as elves and gorillas. Ironically Dwarves are a subrace of Elves.

I personally didnt feel a need for all of the races to have the same overall adjustments, but that made half my group quite happy Except for one player who wanted to play a 30 ft tall giant an the rest of the players said no. I did like being able to give the players "roll and arrange" though.

Here are the Races we ended up with. Roll as per usual in Legend Core, and add the following modifiers.

Each Empire is a pantheon+the race they made+subraces.

Elven Empire:

Dwarves
Str +3
Con +6
Siz -3
Int +3
Pow -3
Dex
Cha

Elves
Con -3
Int +3
Pow -3
Dex +4
Cha +5

Giant Empire
Giant
- Monsters
Ogre
- Monsters

Mannish Empire

Men
Str +1
Con +1
Pow +2
Dex +1
Cha +1

Nymph Empire

Nymphs
Str -2
Con -2
Siz -2
Pow +3
Dex +3
Cha +6

Viking Empire

Nords
Str +3
Con +3

WatooWatoo Empire

Gorillas
Str +4
Con +4
Siz +4
Int -3
Pow -2
Cha -1

Ourangutan
Str +3
Con +3
Siz +3
Int +2
Pow -3
Dex -2

 

[soltakss]

Another design goal I'd have for making a bunch of balanced fantasy races would be that every race should be able to play every archetype. The fact that Halflings can't be Warriors if using the monsters of legend book annoys me a lot. I mean sure, they are probably better thieves, but there should still be some of them that attempt to take straight up fights, Don Quixote style.

I would be surprised if any race in Legend was designed to specifically not have a particular profession.

The whole point of Legend is that it is very open, with any race being able to take up any profession. The fact that a race has a background that does not list a profession simply means that it is unusual. Banning halflings from being warriors would be as bad as banning orcs from being healers and would make no sense to me.

It was mentioned elsewhere that halflings make poor warriors, with a low daamge bonus, but they also have a high DEX and hence should have more Combat Actions. With magic that balances things out. Also, halfling warriors would probably not go up against giants, trolls and dragons (Bilbo Baggins aside) but would instead go against little opponents, leaving bigger foes to Bigguns.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

It was mentioned elsewhere that halflings make poor warriors, with a low daamge bonus, but they also have a high DEX and hence should have more Combat Actions. With magic that balances things out. Also, halfling warriors would probably not go up against giants, trolls and dragons (Bilbo Baggins aside) but would instead go against little opponents, leaving bigger foes to Bigguns.

Halflings should make clever use of Combat Manoeuvres - using Trip to bring large foes down to their level, for instance...

 

[Philotomy]

It wasn't because the book doesn't speak of it, but when you have a damage modifier of -1d4 to +0, you are a pretty bad warrior. I mean you can hardly damage anyone.

They suck at basketball, too. What really gets me, though, is that ogres make terrible ballerinas. :wink:

 

[caul]

I have to admit (keep in mind I'm new here) I'm kind of lost on this topic. When it comes to balancing the races, are you wanting to have every race use the base human characteristic rolls and then apply your listed bonuses? Why, don't they all have their own characteristic rolls as per MoL or other sources?

Now for the halfling warrior argument, I don't see a problem with any warrior have a DB of +0 (average), not everyone can be the Rock. OTOH while a DB of -1d2 to -1d4 might suck, it doesn't make a character incapable of being a warrior...just a more interesting one...

 

[Mixster]

it doesn't make a character incapable of being a warrior...just a more dead one...

FTFY.

Ok, so to clear up something:

The whole point of Legend is that it is very open, with any race being able to take up any profession. The fact that a race has a background that does not list a profession simply means that it is unusual. Banning halflings from being warriors would be as bad as banning orcs from being healers and would make no sense to me.

My suggestion was exactly that a system that bans a few races from using some character archetypes is silly, it wasn't a suggestion to ban them.

---

Then there's the point of whether you "can" make a halfling warrior, well, you'd have to roll inexplicably good stats, since the chance of you actually having a damage modifier of 0 is 6⁻³ or 1/216. You are probably going to fight with at least a -1d2 modifier. Aha, you might counter, you can just use a bigger weapon where that negative modifier wont matter as much. Well, I say, if you are the theoretically most powerful a halfling can be, the best weapon (as in highest damage die) you can use is a great hammer. If you aren't one of the 1 in 12 halflings that can use a double handed weapon, you are probably stuck with a shortspear or a Rapier (but let's not be silly and use the worse weapon of the two)
So you've probably ended up using a shortspear. Now get out there with your other halfling buddies and your 1d8+1-1d2 damage if you are lucky. And you can start wailing away at enemies with an average of 4 damage. Which is about the same damage that a decent (+1d2) human does with his Dirk (1d3+2+1d2 is actually 5.5).

So let's assume that you are actually playing this comic relief halfling in a campaign, and you start tripping/disarming things, which is about the only thing you do. You are sticking to your Heater Shield/Short Spear combo like just about any other halfling, and like every other halfling, although more accurate, you are much less deadly with you sling than the average Joe.
If you then actually get in a fight were you stand a decent chance against an opponent, perhaps because he's a peasant with no experience at all, he could simply walk away from your stunty legs and throw stones at you.

And you may say, it's the DMs job to tailor his encounters to his PC (which I might not fully agree with, but let's for sake of argument say that I do). The other players will not need enemies that don't wear armour in order to wound them, nor will they not get more of a benefit out of the fact that they can also trip/disarm their opponents.

So unless your DM is (as) crazy about halflings (as me), and allows just everything you do with Ropes to solve the problem Luke Skywalker strike or something similar. Combat halflings are simply not an option due to the way the legend combat system work.

Don't get me wrong, the combat system work great for Damage modifiers of +0 to +1d8. But outside this range it gets complicated. Actually the humans in the combat system that go below +0 in damage work great as well, they are often old and fragile, and hence wouldn't be much of an issue in a real fight. But having a player play a character that describes his career as being a guy who solves problems with quick wits and his sword, a halfling warrior, (which is, according to Monster Coliseum, not unheard of) be utterly unable to help his party with his sword is just mean.
(Going over +1d8 damage modifiers screw the system over because suddenly you don't care much about base damage or range, all you want is as big a weapon as possible so your opponents can't parry you, I suggest Military Flail + Hoplite Shield).

It wasn't because the book doesn't speak of it, but when you have a damage modifier of -1d4 to +0, you are a pretty bad warrior. I mean you can hardly damage anyone.

They suck at basketball, too. What really gets me, though, is that ogres make terrible ballerinas. :wink:

Actually, ogres don't make terrible ballerinas. They have the same Dex and Cha as humans and dance is a common skill. Nor do they make worse seductionists or anything.
So making a social Ogre is a totally doable and workable character concept. But making a fighting halfling is not. Am I really the only one that finds this obnoxiously annoying?

 

[rust]

Am I really the only one that finds this obnoxiously annoying?

Well, I find it about as annoying as the fact that a cat is
useless for pulling a plough. If you want halflings in your
setting, their name alone should be a sufficient warning
that they are no big, strong warrior types, and therefore
should better look for other useful roles.

 

[Philotomy]

Actually, ogres don't make terrible ballerinas. They have the same Dex and Cha as humans and dance is a common skill.

Nah, they're still terrible ballerinas. Try doing a pas de deux with a lift when your ballerina is an ogre!

I guess you could say an ogre ballerina is okay if the male dance partner is also an ogre. (Kinda like a halfling warrior works just fine if he's fighting other halflings.)

Am I really the only one that finds this obnoxiously annoying?

I must admit that I don't see the problem. A child-sized warrior is at a significant disadvantage when his enemies are larger. I think that's as it should be.

 

[Loz]

Combat halflings are simply not an option due to the way the legend combat system work.

Not once have you mentioned:

Number of Combat Actions
Combat Style %
Use of Combat Manoeuvres.

A typical MC/MoL Halfling has 3 CA. If he's player character warrior he can get his Combat Style up to a reasonable 70% or so without effort. Give your halfling a shortsword and target shield and he's now up to 4 CA. The shortsword can be used to Bleed; the shield can be used to Stun, as well as defend against larger weapons.

In a fight, knowing that his damage capability might be compromised, judicious use of Trip, Disarm, Bleed, Outmanoeuvre, Change Range, Stun Location and Overextend will all more than compensate for his lower damage capability. In the case of Stun Location, note that as long as just one point of damage gets through, then the location can be immobilised. How about if the halfling and his chums gang-up on a foe? That huge, brutish troll will go down beneath weight of numbers if the halflings are clever and cunning.

By focusing solely on how much damage a halfling can impart is missing about 90% of the available options and opportunities the combat system provides. Of course, if the player with the halfling wants to dumb everything down and simply wade-in hoping to slice enemies to ribbons, then sure, he won't be as effective as someone wielding a greatsword with a +1d4 damage modifier. But if crafty and using a variety of different CMs, his CA and his skills wisely, he can be every bit as effective as other warrior species.