Military Vehicles

[atpollard]

Ah, the infamous "Imperial Data Package" from, IIRC, TNE.

Which makes the thought of sub=TL12 cultures with regular contact with or part of the 3I ... twaddle :wink:

Phil

So how is the African Space Program coming along?
They have access to the same NASA files and internet that I do.

Perhaps TL takes something more than access to data.

 

[FreeTrav]

Someone had to come up with the plans first, even if the technology was there.

True, but this leads to another problem with Tech Levels. They follow the sequence of discoveries and inventions of Europe's real world history, but this is just one of many possible and quite different sequences, at least for all of the earlier technology levels.

[emphasis mine]
This is a very good point, and one that is also repeatedly made on the Baen Books forums, in the discussion groups for the 1632 series*. The point is repeatedly made that the 'down-timers' (those not from Grantville of the year 2000) don't think the way 'up-timers' (from Grantville 2000) do, and may arrive at different solutions to a problem, even if they have good information about the solution that was common up-time. The availability of knowledge and infrastructure - and supporting technology - is a big factor in this, and as the infrastructure develops, different answers may come to the fore, for reasons of economics, infrastructure availability, competing needs, and so on.

For example, things went rather differently in Arabia, India, China and also Mesoamerica. There some of the technologies were invented at different technology levels than in Europe (some much earlier, some much later), some technologies were invented and discarded, some were missed completely ...

Exactly - and sometimes we just don't know why it happened that way.

With such differences in the speed and sequence of technolgical development in different civilizations of one species on one planet, it becomes somewhat difficult for me to imagine that other species on other worlds really would experience a technological development with tech levels that would be remotely similar to our real world history.

They might; they might not. It would depend largely on their perceived needs at various stages of their development. The best you could say is that this stuff over here will be developed before that stuff over there, simply because there's no apparent way to develop that stuff over there without having knowledge that derived from having developed this stuff over here.

As I see it, the reality is that there should be two different "tech level" scales - the first one would be conceptually similar to the classic TL scale from Traveller, and represents "TL development ab initio", or from first principles. This includes the conceptualization of the technology - the "Here's a need; how can I fill it - or fill it better?" level of development. The other TL scale addresses the physical possibility - given that you've been handed the answer to the need already worked out, how do you build what you've been handed, given your current actual abilities and infrastructure?

The various racial homeworlds (i.e., where the Ancients abandoned human or vargr populations, or where native sophonts evolved) will have developed their technology on the first scale, from conceptualizing to implementation, and building on what they previously implemented.

However, the fallback and recovery represented by the Long Night, and by the Crash, should put most worlds on the OTHER scale - the knowledge is there, but the infrastructure and ability may not be. That's potentially the more interesting situation, especially if/when interstellar trade returns to the world, because the economics of the situation is going to affect redevelopment - it may be cheaper to import a bunch of technicians to build a cellphone network, even if you're also importing the cellphones, than it would be to use the native-regrown copper-wire technology to build your communications infrastructure. That, in turn, can lead to the PCs visiting, and seeing groat-drawn xyloid (the local wood analogue) wagons as the main transportation mode (they're cheapest) - and yet, when they run from the law after killing someone, find that they're met by the local cops a thousand kilometers away... and when the PCs express puzzlement (and the players express outrage at the referee), the local pulls out his cellphone, and sarcastically asks the PCs if they've ever heard of such things. The DGP World Builder's Handbook attempted to address the variability of tech level in different areas of endeavor, but stuck to the classic definitions of the tech levels (development ab initio). The other scale is NEEDED - but how do we decide what TL various things should be assigned to?

(And just to complicate things, there's also Ken Pick's analysis of tech levels, where the overall psychology of a society comes into play. Do the various plateaux come at the same places, if the knowledge is predistilled, and only the infrastructure is truly lacking?)



* For those not familiar with the series, the premise is that a small town in West Virginia of the year 2000, through some unexplained handwaving involving the appearance of a "ring of fire", finds itself in Thuringia (Germany) of the year 1631. The entire series is essentially a complex skein of answers to 'and then what happened?'.

 

[aspqrz]

Ah, the infamous "Imperial Data Package" from, IIRC, TNE.

Which makes the thought of sub=TL12 cultures with regular contact with or part of the 3I ... twaddle :wink:

Phil

So how is the African Space Program coming along?
They have access to the same NASA files and internet that I do.

Perhaps TL takes something more than access to data.

And, of course, time.

The 3I is 1100 or so years old, and the most recently settled part of it, according to Canon, is the Spinward Marches, which, IIRC, has been largely settled for 400 years or so. I suspect that, in 2409 or therabouts (assuming that we [the human race, that is, not just Traveller players :lol: ] don't do ourselves in one way or another) we can expect Africa to be reasonably close to whatever the then prevailing Tech Level is.

And, of course, if we really want to get picky - South Africa ...

http://www.space-travel.com/reports/South_Africa_To_Establish_Space_Agency_999.html

... has had its Space Agency since January :shock:

Egypt has a National Authority for Remote Sensing And Space Sciences which uses Satellites, even if it doesn't have/launch any.

Algeria has the Agence Spatiale Algérienne which has a satellite, I think (its in French), with the Centre National des Techniques Spatiales

Nigeria has the National Space Research and Development Agency and they have plans to launch their own satellites from their own launch vehicle (based on technology imports, of course, probably Chinese since their two Satellites seem to have been launched on Chinese rockets).

So "Africa" seems to be doing OK, and won't take 400 years to manage it, either :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

So it seems that having time and access to trade makes enough of a difference :wink:

Phil

 

[rust]

"Here's a need; how can I fill it - or fill it better?"

And for non-human species on other worlds, the meaning of the question
(which needs they have) and the options to develop an answer to it could
well lead to technologies that would be impossible to fit into any general
TL concept.

In my view, the technology of such a species would be determined by the
environment of the species and this environment's natural resources, by
the physiology of the species and by its cultural ideas.

For example, a planet with a slightly different early history than our Earth
would have neither coal nor oil deposits, a species able to fly (or to climb
walls) would probably develop a completely different transport technolo-
gy, transport infrastructure and architecture, and a species that conside-
red circles "satanic" instead of "perfect" would rarely use wheels.

What I dislike about tech levels is not so much that they over-generalize
our real world technology development. I find it much worse that they in
a way restrict the technologies to be found in the setting to those a human
society on an earthlike world would be likely to develop.

In my view, each species and each world of a setting should be unique
and rather different from all others, and therefore should also have its
own unique technology development.

True, such an approach would make life much more complicated for the
poor guy who has to design the setting. But it would also create a setting
with a lot more "sense of wonder" than the usual "Oh, they are TL 3, so
they have steam technology".

 

[CosmicGamer]

A scout shows up in a system, checks it out, and writes a report. The TL for the system is determined on the 'best fit' based on his (or her[or it's]) reference scale.

I never expect it to be an exact match.
I never expect their future development or past development to mirror the system the scale is based on.

I now think of the age weight height scale. There are expectations regarding what the weight and height of children should be at different ages. How often does a child develop exactly the way the scale says?

 

[rust]

I never expect it to be an exact match.
I never expect their future development or past development to mirror the system the scale is based on.

Yes, this is probably the best way to handle it.

 

[Dave Chase]

One of my issues with they way TL handles things in general (which has been touched upon before in a way), is what about a culture or race that instead of developing the metal way of doing things, do doing a pure biological way of doing things.

Say a metal/mineral poor world or one that just doesn't use metals due to culture issues.

How does TL apply to them?

Dave Chase

 

[rust]

How does TL apply to them?

Quite a problem, I am afraid.

For example, if a culture uses animals to draw their vehicles, this is most
likely classified as TL 0. However, if the vehicles themselves are animals,
the results of millenia of applied biosciences and biotechnology, their TL
should indeed be much higher - at least as high as the TL of a "metallic
tech" device that has the same capabilities.

But this could make a creature like the geneered Dragons of the Pern no-
vels the TL equivalent of at least an air/raft - if the observer could distin-
guish between "naturally occuring" and "biotech-created" creatures.

 

[AndrewW]

For example, if a culture uses animals to draw their vehicles, this is most
likely classified as TL 0. However, if the vehicles themselves are animals,
the results of millenia of applied biosciences and biotechnology, their TL
should indeed be much higher - at least as high as the TL of a "metallic
tech" device that has the same capabilities.

But this could make a creature like the geneered Dragons of the Pern no-
vels the TL equivalent of at least an air/raft - if the observer could distin-
guish between "naturally occuring" and "biotech-created" creatures.

Or what if the animals are really mechanical creations made to appear to be animals? Ones that might not be distinguishable from real animals to the Scouts? Perhaps the whole culture keeps up such an appearance of low tech to visitors.

 

[BP]

The problem is the interpretation of what TL means.

Tech Level, as a level, is not an absolute measue - rather it represents a range of capabilities that are applied in general - not specific techniques.

How Tech is implemented is less relevant than 'what' is done. I.e. - Jump or Gravitics can be done by a drive, psionics, a creature, etc. - it doesn't really matter the means - the culture posses the capability.

Re-read page 4 of MGT Core in this light, and there really is no problem assigning TL if a society using, say, biological systems.

This also addresses the common issue of TL progression and non-RW matchups. TLs are very broad catagories - much like stereotypes - they represent generalities only.

 

[rust]

How Tech is implemented is less relevant than 'what' is done. I.e. - Jump or Gravitics can be done by a drive, psionics, a creature, etc. - it doesn't really matter the means - the culture posses the capability.

This would put a car drawn by an animal, a car with a steam engine, a
car with a combustion engine and a car with a fusion battery into the
same technology level of civilizations using powered land transport.

 

[lastbesthope]

Well I like the book, now I have example MEks I can start working on my A:2089 conversion.

LBH

 

[BP]

How Tech is implemented is less relevant than 'what' is done. I.e. - Jump or Gravitics can be done by a drive, psionics, a creature, etc. - it doesn't really matter the means - the culture posses the capability.

This would put a car drawn by an animal, a car with a steam engine, a
car with a combustion engine and a car with a fusion battery into the
same technology level of civilizations using powered land transport.

Well put rust - my phrasing is (typically) not the best . (Emphasis on the 'less relevant' above.) Again - semantics and interpretation. Wikipedia does a better definition perhaps:

Wikipedia[/url]"]Technology is a broad concept that deals with human as well as other animal species' usage and knowledge of tools and crafts, and how it affects a species' ability to control and adapt to its environment. ... However, a strict definition is elusive; "technology" can refer to material objects of use to humanity, such as machines, hardware or utensils, but can also encompass broader themes, including systems, methods of organization, and techniques. The term can either be applied generally or to specific areas: ...

Using your example:

The 'car' drawn by animal has limited endurance.
The steam run car - has limited power ratio (generally).
The combustion car has more power ratio.
The fusion battery car has even more.

How the fusion battery works is irrelevant - however, the fusion efficiency is - and modern science currently has no other equal way (there are better). Thus the power ratio - fuel to energy (effeciency) is greater as one move up in TL using these real world examples. The 'what' is done may be equivalent to the how - though other means could be used. TL use examples. Examples have equivalents - though some don't (fusion level power efficency without fusion or some higher tech equivalent) without more exotic fiction than Traveller generally covers.

The conceptual problem is that 'Powered land transport' does not have a TL per say. The 'what' of a combustion engine is that exploding fuels are used for motive force. The how is irrelevant - though fossil fuels may be the primary example - be it a gasoline or a diesel or some other type. (Though technically a 'stirling' engine would not count - it still fits in the TL 5 given power efficiency).

Granted, the examples used for TL and the arbitrary assignments to gear are not always the best. It is just a generality. When it comes to trying to quantify technology (an abstract definition to begin with) - no level of detail would ever really be enough - and anything more than what Traveller already uses would have limited gain (and some of what Traveller already uses is a bit overkill - TL 10 for instance...).

TL has some merit in modifying stats/cost and determining general availability - all things which can be modified independently as needed of course (taking other things into account on a case by case basis). Personally, I would like a 'better' system - but without adding complexity (which most people probably would not care for - as in your earlier example with your players) - I'm not sure there is one.

 

[rust]

Personally, I would like a 'better' system - but without adding complexity (which most people probably would not care for - as in your earlier example with your players) - I'm not sure there is one.

I agree, I also do not (yet ?) know any better system - but I still do not
like it, like the entire UWP.

 

[BP]

I like the 'concept' of the UWP and other 'encoding' classifications... but they are too simplistic for my personal taste...

The real problem is pencil and paper RPG - and this in turn is Real World TL restricted - well actually we have the Tech - just not the market motivation (but we are getting there!)...