Sturn said:
aspqrz said:
It's just as stupidly bad with Missile weapons. Revolvers are TL5 but, somehow, Autopistols are TL6.
Have they never heard of the Webley-Fosbury? An Automatic Revolver!
Likewise, somehow a Bolt Action Rifle is TL5, but an AutoRifle is TL6. Say what?
Anyone who knows their technology will know that a TL5 (!) Lee Enfield is actually higher tech (in terms of need for precision machining) than an AK-47 of TL6!
While I understand completely what you are saying, you are missing a point I think.
Nope. Not at all.
Sturn said:
I don't know enough to argue all of the reasons, but there is a reason why revolvers were around for many years before automatic pistols were common. They were still much easier and simpler to make. There were early autopistols, but they were rare. They could be made, but perhaps it wasn't easy or efficient. Perhaps it was too darn expensive.
The point I was making is that, in reality, there is no real difference in machining a chunk of metal into a revolver vs machining a chunck of metal into an automatic.
They both require precision machine tools and, in reality, once those are developed there is absolutely no reason why you cannot do both. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. Null.
The real limitation is the metallic cartridge tech, not machining the barrel, or slide, or screws or whatever.
Sturn said:
Your examples include what may be considered prototypes, not things that were common to the era. Possible, sure. Common, no. Prototype rules in some Traveller rulesets in fact allow you to make items one TL higher.
Sorry, but no, they do not include prototypes.
The point is, and the point you are missing entirely, is that there is no technoligical reason why AutoPistols and Revolvers should be rated as different Tech Levels.
You seem to be arguing from the basis that "the TMB says it is so, so it must be so" ... my point is that the
machine tools needed to make the two weapons had existed for many years and there was
no technological change or development (not once metallic cartridges had been perfected)
required to manufacture AutoPistols.
This has nothing to do with prototypes at all.
Sturn said:
Do you really think the British Army of 1895 wouldn't have rather been armed with an assault rifle such as the AK47 over that of the Lee Enfield? There is a reason such a weapon didn't come about until later, even if technically possible. It isn't just capability, it's knowing exactly what to do or doing it well.
Wrong again. I am arguing that Tech Levels merely measure what was invented, not what could have been invented and that the latter measure is more relevant.
As for the Lee Enfield example, well, what you don't know (and, really, unless you're into the history and development of science and technology pretty heavily, there's no reason that you would :wink: ) is that the Lee Enfield is a magazine fed rifle (well, actually, you
may know that) and that there is actually
no reason why it could not have been issued with multiple magazines for quick reloading ... except for the stated fact that the British Army ordnance people (Generals) were worried that the rifle, being so quick firing anyway compared to muzzle loaders or single shot Martini Henry models that the soldiers would use too much ammo. Hence the fact that it was only ever issued with one magazine and reloaded through the action either one round at a time or with a stripper clip.
The capacity to be a replaceable magazine rifle was always there, it was never used for
cultural reasons.
So, unless you are suggesting that TLs aren't actually measuring technology, but are really measuring
cultural blind spots ... and therefore should be referred to as "CLs" (Cultural Levels) ... your point actually makes
my point.
Now, don't get me wrong - I am not telling you (or, indeed,
anyone) that they "must" apply real world factors to Traveller ... that's entirely a player/GM decision and, lets face it, most won't
care ... I am merely pointing out something that is self-evident to anyone who has done some
serious game designing and has a grasp of history and technology (and of the history
of technology). If you choose to say its not important, then that's fine with me :wink: !!!
Sturn said:
A stone age human could make rope, could carve wood and stone, but didn't make a trebuchet. Someone had to come up with the plans first, even if the technology was there.
OK. You're shipwrecked on a world with Stone Age tech ... by chance, completely buck naked and with nothing in the way of possessions ... but you have the gift of the gab and manage to convince one of the local God Kings that you can destroy the walls of his enemy's city state (and,
no, TL0 is
not pre-agricultural nor is it pre-city state ... think the Aztecs, and Tenochtitlan, for a start ... they were, at best, Chalcolithic ... late TL0) ... so, using only locally produced rope, wood cut with only locally manufactured stone tools, and your own intangible knowledge of mathematics and military history, you manufacture a Trebuchet,
Is it TL0, the TL of the planet and of the tools used to manufacture it, or have you raised the TL of the planet to TL1/2 (in MongTrav its not clear whether TL1 or TL2 covers the late Middle Ages)? Or have you raised the planet to TL9, because you come from a culture that has at least Jump-1?
There is actually no problem and only one sensible answer (well, that's IMNSHO, of course 8) :wink: ) ... they're still TL0. It's just that you don't
need TL1 or TL2 to manufacture a Trebuchet.
Phil
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