making lemonaide out of lemons

[thulsa]

Having had my rant, what are the tricks other players here use in order to make the class playable without breaking the rules? I ask because, while the class sucks mechanics-wise, its an intriguing class flavor-wise, one I'd love to play if it were playable.

See the Savant class at http://hyboria.xoth.net/classes/savant.pdf

- thulsa

 

[Hervé]

Thulsa.
Always here to save the day.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I like the Savant class, but I'm curious..who here thinks it goes in the face of canon?

 

[Majestic7]

I haven't seen the need to use the Savant otherwise, but I stole Alchemist class ability. I tweaked it so that it works for one + Int modifier number of alchemical recipes. Otherwise it is like in Savant - you can choose whether to take Knowledge is Power or Master Alchemist. I really don't think that the class differs much from vanilla Scholar, though according to my house rules, it is possible for sorcerers to learn spells outside their level ups from mysterious texts, other sorcerers and demons. It is just not easy and each of those methods have their drawbacks. Learning stuff from, say, the Book of Skelos takes months of studying, learning something from another sorcerer takes time and gives him power of the master over the student and knowledge coming from demons tends to be tainted. Especially they don't tend to tell everything about the magic they teach.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I haven't seen the need to use the Savant otherwise, but I stole Alchemist class ability. I tweaked it so that it works for one + Int modifier number of alchemical recipes. Otherwise it is like in Savant - you can choose whether to take Knowledge is Power or Master Alchemist. I really don't think that the class differs much from vanilla Scholar, though according to my house rules, it is possible for sorcerers to learn spells outside their level ups from mysterious texts, other sorcerers and demons. It is just not easy and each of those methods have their drawbacks. Learning stuff from, say, the Book of Skelos takes months of studying, learning something from another sorcerer takes time and gives him power of the master over the student and knowledge coming from demons tends to be tainted. Especially they don't tend to tell everything about the magic they teach.

Okay, but do you think it creates a spell caster which is against canon?

 

[LilithsThrall]

Okay, but do you think it creates a spell caster which is against canon?

I'm getting the sense that people are avoiding answering this question.
I'll give my answer.
No, it isn't.
The entire "the sorcerer class _should_ be unbalanced" argument is wrapped around the idea that
a.) there are so few low level sorcerers in canon
b.) sorcerers in canon all end up dead, usually at the end of a sword and usually pretty quickly once the hero of the story gets past all the sorcerer's magic and minions

My reply has been, if there's so few low level sorcerers in canon, then you can't ague from canon that low level sorcerers should suck. Further, its far too easy in the game to get past the sorcerer's magic and, as for minions, that's just plain broken - a sorcerer NPC can do a total party kill so easily that you actually have to go out of your way to explain why they don't.

 

[Spectator]

OK LilithsThrall (LT) Sorcerors are less than optimal.
They aren't walking howitzers like DnD magic-users, we all know that.
So... do you have any suggestions on how to fix them?

 

[LilithsThrall]

OK LilithsThrall (LT) Sorcerors are less than optimal.
They aren't walking howitzers like DnD magic-users, we all know that.
So... do you have any suggestions on how to fix them?

First, I sincerely hope that we all can work together to make the sorcerer better.
Second, I'd like to see a greater level of mutual trust between everyone involved in this discussion. Towards that end, I'd like you to explain why you brought up "walking howitzer"?
Third, my personal opinion regarding changes to the sorcerer..
This isn't high fantasy, this is sword and sorcery. Sorcerers should be of the sword and sorcery type. We should identify what a "sword and sorcery type" sorcerer is and work towards that - within the constraints of REH conan cannon.

 

[Scorpion13]

Okay, but do you think it creates a spell caster which is against canon?

I'm getting the sense that people are avoiding answering this question.
I'll give my answer.
No, it isn't.
The entire "the sorcerer class _should_ be unbalanced" argument is wrapped around the idea that
a.) there are so few low level sorcerers in canon
b.) sorcerers in canon all end up dead, usually at the end of a sword and usually pretty quickly once the hero of the story gets past all the sorcerer's magic and minions

My reply has been, if there's so few low level sorcerers in canon, then you can't ague from canon that low level sorcerers should suck. Further, its far too easy in the game to get past the sorcerer's magic and, as for minions, that's just plain broken - a sorcerer NPC can do a total party kill so easily that you actually have to go out of your way to explain why they don't.

So, you want low level sorcerors to be able to make people's heads explode?

What are you asking? Either you want them to be spell-slinging monsters (which, BTW, is something I liked being different from D&D, that is, making players think of different ways to handle situations besides "Bling, magic") or you dont.

 

[Style]

Personally, I'm a big fan of sorcerers being able to cast very powerful spells, even at low levels, they are just extremely difficult to perform, unreliable, and dangerous. I'll stay out of the rules discussion how to implement this, as I don't play the system being discussed.

 

[Spectator]

OK LilithsThrall (LT) Sorcerors are less than optimal.
They aren't walking howitzers like DnD magic-users, we all know that.
So... do you have any suggestions on how to fix them?

First, I sincerely hope that we all can work together to make the sorcerer better.
Second, I'd like to see a greater level of mutual trust between everyone involved in this discussion. Towards that end, I'd like you to explain why you brought up "walking howitzer"?
Third, my personal opinion regarding changes to the sorcerer..
This isn't high fantasy, this is sword and sorcery. Sorcerers should be of the sword and sorcery type. We should identify what a "sword and sorcery type" sorcerer is and work towards that - within the constraints of REH conan cannon.

In regards to your comments:
1. I agree, Idon't think I distrusted anybody yet, after all no-ones trying to sell anyone anything off eBay yet.
2. "Walking howitzer" = the 5th level magic-user flinging a fireball at a bunch of peasants in DnD. Something that is not able to be done in Conan as the rules are written. Unless your guy gets the Wand of Crimson Fire (Skrolls of Skelos and from the book Red Nails).
3. I'm confused. You want to work within Canon, but the previous posts indicate that you are not happy with how Canon is limiting the sorceror. The only possible rectification to this would be allowing the sorceror types to advance twice as fast (1/2 the experience points required to level up) and/or disable some of the pre-reqs for certain spells, and/or allow the sorceror to gain more spells and access more schools of magic, and/or asquire more power points faster. I have to say that the spells in the 1st edition and 1st ed. of skrolls of Skelos, are pretty canonical. Very non-flashy un-DnD type spells.

On a personal note, the way I would make the sorceror more balanced for a PC who chooses to operate as one by:
1. allowing more sorcerous feats to be included as level feats as opposed to having to buy them with feats. For example, at 4th level the sorceror could get "ritual sacrifice" or "meditation" free. At 8th level; Poison Use. At 12th level; Steely Gaze etc...
2. I would alter the fundamental way of awarding experience points to sorcerors by allowing them to level up faster and awarding points based on the spells cast. I would probably stop this advantage at 10th level.
3. I definitely would award a Bonus power point at each level, not the current system.
4. Disable the cumbersome pre-reqs for certain spells. Such as having to know oriental magic, to be able to cast Gelid Bones.
5. Alter the spell point cost for certain spells such as "Doom of the Doll" to cast that costs 10 pp/round. to effective use that spell on a mid level character would cost about 60 points. Too much.
6. Alter the spells within certain bounds. For Example if you know Hypnotic suggestion, instead of having to burn 2 spell slots for Ranged and Mass Hypnotism, I would fold those into Hypnotic suggestion slot and if you wanted to cast them, well they would 'cost' the same as before.
7. ELIMINATE THE CODE OF HONOR will bonus. That is the biggest UNLEVEL-er in the playing field. 8th level Sorcerors get screwed when their target 1st level Cimmerian Barbarian shrugs off their dread serpent spell due to his cimmerian will bonus and his COH bonus. LT, there was a thread many moons ago and you will find it a very unpopular topic here since so many people are playing with one.
8. For starting PCs, if everyone rolls up a 1st level soldier, barbarian, thief, etc... Allow your PC sorceror to start off at 4th level.

Off the top of my head I think that's the way to do it, if you wanted to.

 

[LilithsThrall]

<snip>

1. I agree

Great, because I believe there are some very smart people on this board who have a lot to offer and I'd like to get their input.

2. "Walking howitzer" = the 5th level magic-user flinging a fireball at a bunch of peasants in DnD. Something that is not able to be done in Conan as the rules are written. Unless your guy gets the Wand of Crimson Fire (Skrolls of Skelos and from the book Red Nails).

But quote where I said that I wanted a 5th level magic-user flinging fireballs at a bunch of peasants in Conan. See, this is what I don't understand. If no one has pushed for a 5th level fireball cannon in Conan, why even mention it? When I read this quote, I got the distinct impression that you don't trust me to want a sorcerer of a more sword and sorcery bent. When I read this quote, I got the distinct impression that you think I want a DnD style wizard in Conan.

3. I'm confused. You want to work within Canon, but the previous posts indicate that you are not happy with how Canon is limiting the sorceror. The only possible rectification to this would be allowing the sorceror types to advance twice as fast (1/2 the experience points required to level up) and/or disable some of the pre-reqs for certain spells, and/or allow the sorceror to gain more spells and access more schools of magic, and/or asquire more power points faster. I have to say that the spells in the 1st edition and 1st ed. of skrolls of Skelos, are pretty canonical. Very non-flashy un-DnD type spells.

I want to work with the cannon - as in the novels that REH wrote, not the game system that Mongoose wrote. On the other hand, I'd like to stick to the game system Mongoose wrote wherever everything else is equal.

On a personal note, the way I would make the sorceror more balanced for a PC who chooses to operate as one by:
1. allowing more sorcerous feats to be included as level feats as opposed to having to buy them with feats. For example, at 4th level the sorceror could get "ritual sacrifice" or "meditation" free. At 8th level; Poison Use. At 12th level; Steely Gaze etc...
2. I would alter the fundamental way of awarding experience points to sorcerors by allowing them to level up faster and awarding points based on the spells cast. I would probably stop this advantage at 10th level.
3. I definitely would award a Bonus power point at each level, not the current system.
4. Disable the cumbersome pre-reqs for certain spells. Such as having to know oriental magic, to be able to cast Gelid Bones.
5. Alter the spell point cost for certain spells such as "Doom of the Doll" to cast that costs 10 pp/round. to effective use that spell on a mid level character would cost about 60 points. Too much.
6. Alter the spells within certain bounds. For Example if you know Hypnotic suggestion, instead of having to burn 2 spell slots for Ranged and Mass Hypnotism, I would fold those into Hypnotic suggestion slot and if you wanted to cast them, well they would 'cost' the same as before.
7. ELIMINATE THE CODE OF HONOR will bonus. That is the biggest UNLEVEL-er in the playing field. 8th level Sorcerors get screwed when their target 1st level Cimmerian Barbarian shrugs off their dread serpent spell due to his cimmerian will bonus and his COH bonus. LT, there was a thread many moons ago and you will find it a very unpopular topic here since so many people are playing with one.
8. For starting PCs, if everyone rolls up a 1st level soldier, barbarian, thief, etc... Allow your PC sorceror to start off at 4th level.

Off the top of my head I think that's the way to do it, if you wanted to.

This is a good place to start. It includes some things I'd thought about and some things I hadn't, which is why I think its important to get community input. I'd like to see what other people have to add to this.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I still don't follow the whining about the COH bonus. Most classes have crappy Will saves, which scale much worse than Magic Attack bonus. A COH is a restriction as much as a boon, and while it gives low-level chars quite an edge, it doesn't scale and in the end the high-level Sorcerer and Honorable Fighter will be roughly on par.
Without COH, any scholar could simply ride anyone's ass home. The first NPC sorcerer would almost guarantee a TPK.

The way the Conan system works, with all the MD rules and Save or Die spells, any encounter is pretty much all-or-nothing. There are no ties and no even matches.
And either way, it's altogether Conanesque that the Barbarian beats the Sorcerer in the end. He can hardly do that if he dies from the first spell ever flung at him.

 

[Spectator]

Okay,
ABout Codes of Honor, well I think RAW, the +3 is way too strong. I don't play them for these reasons:

1. I'm not sure how being a gentleman or a noble savage should allow you to beat a dread serpent spell better than an equally leveled non-honorable character.

2. I'm not sure why your character is less likely to crap his pants when the a Xuchotl dragon charged him as opposed to an equally leveled non-honorable character.

3. THe COH is a holdover of an alignment system (IMHO), that rewards teamwork, brotherly love, etc... The reward should be great teamwork and that's it, there should not be an additional reward to play that way, heck, why don't we give every gentleman and noble savage a Akbitanan weapon, a coat of mail, and a horse on top of it.

4. The only stat I would pad were I to play with a COH is CHARISMA, and it would get a plus 1 bonus for being honorable.

5. As Clovenhoof pointed out most classes have crapy will saves. Fine it gives that low to mid level sorceror a fighting chance at staying alive. If most of the sorcerors spells rely on will saves then by having a super-duper +3 bonus for his opponents totally blows.

6. Think about a +3 bonus is equivalent to giving your PC 6 statpoints in WILLPOWER.

 

[LilithsThrall]

it's altogether Conanesque that the Barbarian beats the Sorcerer in the end. He can hardly do that if he dies from the first spell ever flung at him.

I'm not at all convinced that's true. Sorcerers have killed hundreds, maybe even thousands of barbarians, soldiers, and other martial types in the REH books.
Its just that the hero of the story beats the bad guy in the end. The fact that Conan was the hero doesn't mean that every hero is a barbarian, that all barbarians are heroes, or even that sorcerers can't be heroes.

 

[Hervé]

I like the idea that a Sorceror could wipe a whole city from afar but wouldn't stand a chance facing a axe wielding berserker. That's quite typical of the Conan stories. As it has been stated, Conan is not D&D, even if the rules are close. A Conan sorceror cannot throw fireballs at will from a magic staff.
Not in my campaign, anyways.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I like the idea that a Sorceror could wipe a whole city from afar but wouldn't stand a chance facing a axe wielding berserker. That's quite typical of the Conan stories. As it has been stated, Conan is not D&D, even if the rules are close. A Conan sorceror cannot throw fireballs at will from a magic staff.
Not in my campaign, anyways.

See, when I read the Conan stories, I read of Sorcerers ripping peoples' hearts out of their chests when face-to-face, of mind controlling them, of killing them with a touch of the hand, etc. I guess we're reading different Conan books.
As for Conan not being DnD, I've just about given up repeating myself over and over and over again that no one in this thread has asked for a DnD wizard in Conan.

 

[Clovenhoof]

See, when I read the Conan stories, I read of Sorcerers ripping peoples' hearts out of their chests when face-to-face, of mind controlling them, of killing them with a touch of the hand, etc.

So? All of these spells have been carried over to the game. An able sorcerer can always try to pull these off. But still there is little that would protect him from an axe blow to the chest.

 

[Krushnak]

But still there is little that would protect him from an axe blow to the chest.

actually there is. Ward by Will lets you change pp for dr(1 for 2 i think). not crash hot but it can let you survive a while longer to run away.

 

[Scorpion13]

Yeah, but it eats up PPs like a madman, and each casting only lasts a round.

A sorceror in melee combat with a barbarian is in as much trouble as a barbarian is if he's across the room from an even halfway prepared sorceror.