making lemonaide out of lemons

[Clovenhoof]

Nevertheless, low-level D&D arcane casters are also useful as a second arse. Level 1 Wizard: 1 grade 1 spell per day for 2-5hp damage? Be still my beating heart.
It's quite normal for most fantasy RPGs that magic users are very weak in the early phases, and very deadly late on.

 

[LilithsThrall]

That's not true.
It takes 1gp and 1 day for that first level wizard to make a scroll. He also has a laundry list of spells (many of which are potentially too powerful, like sleep) to call upon. He also has a number of cantrips which are quite effective in combat - he can cast many of them per day and can create scrolls of them for cheap.

Besides, when has d20 ever been the standard by which Conan should be measured? That's like arguing that its okay for a professional computer scientist to have the same kind of trouble a 6th grader has with arithmetic. I expect more out of Conan because, over all, its a better system. It just has this one huge flaw in it.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Besides, when has d20 ever been the standard by which Conan should be measured?

The comparison to SRD D20 is natural because, well, it's based on the SRD. It may be like comparing a Mustang to a Ford Falcon; one may be so much more attractive but the underlying platform is the same.

Conan D20 has enough issues of its own; my biggest beef with it is the unrivaled dominance of Two-Handed Weapons, as discussed in other threads.

The Scholar class's lacking in combat effectiveness is not one of these issues. As I said previously, the Scholar isn't meant to kick butt in front-line combat. But he has a lot of other aces up the sleeve which no other class can even dream of. Scholars are the class, for example, that pull the strings behind the scenes and have some enthralled mooks to do the fighting for them. That's totally in-genre with S&S in general and certainly for Conan in particular.

I repeat: if you want a more combat-oriented Scholar, make houserules. I predict there's never going to be an official class that blatantly contradicts the canon.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I predict there's never going to be an official class that blatantly contradicts the canon.

I'll ask you the same question I asked before. What is non-Canon about bumping up the power of Lesser Ill Fortune from -1 to something more substantial?

 

[Scorpion13]

I predict there's never going to be an official class that blatantly contradicts the canon.

I'll ask you the same question I asked before. What is non-Canon about bumping up the power of Lesser Ill Fortune from -1 to something more substantial?

Its non-canon in that it contradicts the idea that neophyte sorcerors wouldnt have powerful spells.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I predict there's never going to be an official class that blatantly contradicts the canon.

I'll ask you the same question I asked before. What is non-Canon about bumping up the power of Lesser Ill Fortune from -1 to something more substantial?

Its non-canon in that it contradicts the idea that neophyte sorcerors wouldnt have powerful spells.

Give an example of a neophyte sorcerer in the canon whose magic wasn't of a power level to defend him.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Let me put it that way: in canon stories we find not neophyte but _experienced_ sorcerers who, in the end, had not the power to defend themselves, nine times out of ten.

Off-hand I can think of only one sorcerer who survived the story, and that was one who had allied with Conan. And he was real badass too.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Let me put it that way: in canon stories we find not neophyte but _experienced_ sorcerers who, in the end, had not the power to defend themselves, nine times out of ten.

Off-hand I can think of only one sorcerer who survived the story, and that was one who had allied with Conan. And he was real badass too.

The sorcerers were the bad guys. Of course they lost against Conan.
That doesn't mean that sorcerers are inherently weak.

 

[Krushnak]

Give an example of a neophyte sorcerer in the canon whose magic wasn't of a power level to defend him.

The neophytes of mount Yimsha. They used physical and alchemical attacks and relied on the magic wards set up by the master to deter Conan and the hillmen.

 

[Korppis]

LilithsThrall, this has been pointed out before, but I'll do it again. The name of the class is "Scholar".

That's overly pedantic and no particular contribution to the discussion. Do you have something meaningful to add or do you wish to merely pick nits?

He did, you just did cut off his actual point:

It is NOT a DnD Wizard, with no important contribution to party success other than it's magic. The class has a list of handy class features, and a butt load of skill points, rivalled only by the thief. The spell casting is an optional class feature. It is perfectly possible to build a scholar with no magic at all.

You were asking why "sorceror" was presented at the beginning of the book with other core classes and not at the end of the book with npc:s/monsters (like NPC-class commoner).
As far as i can see you have handled Scholar just as a barbarian or soldier with downgraded fighting potential and couple of spells... but scholars first and foremost duty in a team isn't as a front-line fighter killing the enemies side by side with barbarians and soldiers. Scholar is a class with either as many skill points as a thief (when beefed up with spellcasting abilities) or most skilled character in party (non-spellcasting scholar, trading sorcery styles on skill-boosting feats and advanced spells on extra skill points). Unless the games you are playing in are mostly hack'n slash á la old-school D&D with most of the focus on fighting against next monster DM throws against you and little focus on events outside of combat, scholar is a character who shines (together with noble who shines in social skills) mostly outside the combat encounters. Scholar has also alchemy and herbal skills as his class skills with lots of skill points to use on them so he is able to create those nasty (or helpful) poisons and potions. If that is the main focus of the scholar, why should he -also- be "balanced" to be equal in combat with other characters.

If you -really- want to create a scholar who can collect as many killing trophies as that axe-swinging barbarian next to him you should get Argos&Zingara sourcebook and create a non-sorcereous scholar character with Knowledge: Zingaran fencing, Skill focus on that knowledge skill, and feats Knowledgeable and Driven to win (which allows you to use your base Will -save instead of your str or dex -bonus in fighting).

If you are creating a sorcerous scholar your character will still have tons of skill points and there are lots of useful spells (at least in Atlantan Edition, doesn't have 2nd edition yet). Ritual sacrifice and opportunistic sacrifice are mandatory for succesfull spellcasting sorcerer, with ritual sacrifice you can quicly get x2 to x5 of your normal PP:s and with opportunistic sacrifice (combined with Rule of Success) your scholar will propably have no worries about PP:s

Counterspells (exspecially greater warding) can really save your groups butt if you are facing enemy spellcasters and have some time to cast protecting spells beforehands. And hey, it uses magic attack roll so it's effectiveness -will- improve when you are leveling up. Expecially if there is slightest chance that evil sorcerer has some high level necromancer spells or curses it is nice to have at least some kind of extra protection against them.

Incantation of the Amalric's witchman could first look like one-trick pony but concidering that in Conan RPG there are very little or none of magical weapons ability to remove supernatural opponent's DR and special immunities can really save your day.

Hypnotism and Gelid Bones have been handled several times and even you had said tat they are useful abilities to have... Gelid bones isn't only good for making your opponents easy targets to kill, it is also great for capturing someone alive.

Divination spells can be useful or waste of time but it all depends on your GM. If your campaings are mostly railroaded combat encounters those spells are propably waste of time, on the other hand if knowledge about what you will be facing and gathering information have any function at all in your campaing they are really useful. Exspecially Mind reading is great as a lie-detector (if someone is knowlingly trying to lie to you in a conversation, hide some information or is planning to betray you these things are propably his surface thoughts on that moment).

Animal summoning spells in Nature Magic can be useful even in combat, excpecially animal ally (which upgrades with levels, you can have lion, bear or sabre-tooth tiger with boosted abilities on a lower mid-levels) and greater summoning (allows summoning of large animals).

Necromancery and demonology are mostly waste of time while you are on a lower levels, but as pointed out before Raise Corpse (which is just a basic spell) can give even low-level sorcerer undead minions which are ultimately loyal (unlike slaves) and force terror checks on opponents, and demonic pact (demonology basic spell) will allow you to barter with your demonic ally for some extra help (even fighting against your opponents).

Telkinesis and greater telekinesis spells can really make your sorcerer an human catapult (literally), if you run out of your alchemical chemicals and poisons you can start hurling boulders against your opponents. At least in AE there are no weight limit on how heavy items you can toss with greater telekinesis and lesser one lets you throw anything in your hands which means if you can rise it from the ground you can also throw it with your telekinesis.

 

[kintire]

Give an example of a neophyte sorcerer in the canon whose magic wasn't of a power level to defend him.

Thutothmes' acolytes, who fought the Khitans with knives, not spells.

It takes 1gp and 1 day for that first level wizard to make a scroll. He also has a laundry list of spells (many of which are potentially too powerful, like sleep) to call upon. He also has a number of cantrips which are quite effective in combat - he can cast many of them per day and can create scrolls of them for cheap.

And he has 2/level skill points, d4 hit dice and no class abilities other than spells, and extra metamagic feats.

LilithsThrall, this has been pointed out before, but I'll do it again. The name of the class is "Scholar".


That's overly pedantic and no particular contribution to the discussion. Do you have something meaningful to add or do you wish to merely pick nits?

Even leaving aside the fact that you ignored the rest of my post, its not a nitpick. You were then and still are treating the Scholar as if it was solely about the magic, which its not.

 

[Hervé]

Everybody's arguing about the usefulness of spellcasters in Conan, reasoning in terms of number crunching. The fact is that Sorcerers in Conan stories rarely use battle spells. I don't see any reason for them to do so in the game. Furthermore, playing a sorcerer is purely anti Howard. No Howard hero would rely on magic to conquer his foes.
I just think you guys played D&D a bit too much, and that clouded you vision... :wink:

 

[LilithsThrall]

And he has 2/level skill points, d4 hit dice and no class abilities other than spells, and extra metamagic feats.

He really only needs intelligence, not wisdom and charisma as well. That means that he's likely going to be able to max out his intelligence, which will give him significantly more skill points than just 2. Scholars need all three stats to be high and, so, can't max one of them out.

 

[kintire]

He really only needs intelligence, not wisdom and charisma as well. That means that he's likely going to be able to max out his intelligence, which will give him significantly more skill points than just 2.

But still far less than the scholar. In fact, even if he has Int 18 it will only be 6 per level, 7 if he's human, which is less than a Scholar with Int 10. Not to mention the Scholar's much better class skill list.

Everybody's arguing about the usefulness of spellcasters in Conan, reasoning in terms of number crunching.

Yes. LilithsThrall has put forward the idea that the Scholar class is mechanically unbalanced, hence the subsequent discussion has focussed on mechanics. Extrapolating people's Total Theory of RPGs from a discussion of one specific question is unsafe.

The fact is that Sorcerers in Conan stories rarely use battle spells

He caught only glimpses of that brief, fiendish fight- saw men swaying, locked in battle and streaming blood; saw one Khitan, fairly hacked to pieces, yet still on his feet and dealing death, when Thutothmes smote him on the breast with his open empty hand, and he dropped dead, though naked steel had not been enough to destroy his uncanny vitality.

By the time Conan's hurtling feet left the stair, the fight was all but over. Three of the Khitans were down, and slashed and cut to ribbons and disemboweled, but of the Stygians only Thutothmes remained on his feet.

He rushed at the remaining Khitan, his empty hand lifted like a weapon, and that hand was black as that of a negro. But before he could strike, the staff in the tall Khitan's hand licked out, seeming to elongate itself as the yellow man thrust. The point touched the bosom of Thutothmes and he staggered; again and yet again the staff licked out, and Thutothmes reeled and fell dead, his features blotted out in a rush of blackness that made the whole of him the same hue as his enchanted hand.

A Nemedian priest loosed black magic again in the streets of Tarantia to slay men who still were loyal to your memory. I myself saw it. Armed men dropped like flies and died in the streets in a manner no man could understand.

The horde had halted. From the extreme wing rushed a chariot, the naked charioteer lashing the steeds like a madman; the other occupant was a tall figure whose robe floated spectrally on the wind. He held in his arms a great vessel of gold and from it poured a thin stream that sparkled in the sunlight. Across the whole front of the desert horde the chariot swept, and behind its thundering wheels was left, like the wake behind a ship, a long thin powdery line that glittered in the sands like the phosphorescent track of a serpent.

"That's Natohk!" swore Amalric. "What hellish seed is he sowing?"

The charging knights had not checked their headlong pace. Another fifty paces and they would crash into the uneven Kushite ranks, which stood motionless, spears lifted. Now the foremost knights had reached the thin line that glittered across the sands. They did not heed that crawling menace. But as the steel-shod hoofs of the horses struck it, it was as when steel strikes flint — but with more terrible result. A terrific explosion rocked the desert, which seemed to split apart along the strewn line with an awful burst of white flame.

In that instant the whole foremost line of the knights was seen enveloped in that flame, horses and steel-clad riders withering in the glare like insects in an open blaze. The next instant the rear ranks were piling up on their charred bodies. Unable to check their headlong velocity, rank after rank crashed into the ruins. With appalling suddenness the charge had turned into a shambles where armored figures died amid screaming, mangled horses.

This warrior, leaning on his spear, and yawning from time to time, started suddenly to his feet. He had not thought he had dozed, but a man was standing before him, a man he had not heard approach. The man wore a camel-hair robe and a green turban. In the flickering light of the cresset his features were shadowy, but a pair of lambent eyes shone surprizingly in the lurid glow.

"Who comes?" demanded the warrior, presenting his spear. "Who are you?"

The stranger did not seem perturbed, though the spear-point touched his bosom. His eyes held the warrior's with strange intensity.

"What are you obliged to do?" he asked, strangely.

"To guard the gate!" The warrior spoke thickly and mechanically; he stood rigid as a statue, his eyes slowly glazing.

"You lie! You are obliged to obey me! You have looked into my eyes, and your soul is no longer your own. Open that door!"

Stiffly, with the wooden features of an image, the guard wheeled about, drew a great key from his girdle, turned it in the massive lock and swung open the door. Then he stood at attention, his unseeing stare straight ahead of him.

A woman glided from the shadows and laid an eager hand on the mesmerist's arm.

"Bid him fetch us horses, Khemsa," she whispered.

"No need of that," answered the Rakhsha. Lifting his voice slightly he spoke to the guardsman. "I have no more use for you. Kill yourself!"

The fire died out but the glow remained, a quivering ball of lambent green that pulsed and shimmered on the flags before Khemsa's feet. The wide gaze of the tribesmen was fixed upon it. It wavered, elongated; it turned into a luminous green-smoke spiraling upward. It twisted and writhed like a great shadowy serpent, then broadened and billowed out in shining folds and whirls. It grew to a cloud moving silently over the flags--straight toward the grille. The men watched its coming with dilated eyes; the bars quivered with the grip of their desperate fingers. Bearded lips parted but no sound came forth. The green cloud rolled on the bars and blotted them from sight; like a fog it oozed through the grille and hid the men within. From the enveloping folds came a strangled gasp, as of a man plunged suddenly under the surface of water. That was all.

Khemsa touched the girl's arm, as she stood with parted lips and dilated eyes. Mechanically she turned away with him, looking back over her shoulder. Already the mist was thinning; close to the bars she saw a pair of sandalled feet, the toes turned upward--she glimpsed the indistinct outlines of seven still, prostrate shapes

"What is that to you, dead man? Have you so quickly forgotten my strength, once lent to you, that you come armed against me, you poor fool? I think I will take your heart, Kerim Shah!"

He held out his hand as if to receive something, and the Turanian cried out sharply like a man in mortal agony. He reeled drunkenly, and then, with a splintering of bones, a rending of flesh and muscle and a snapping of mail-links, his breast burst outward with a shower of blood, and through the ghastly aperture something red and dripping shot through the air into the Master's outstretched hand, as a bit of steel leaps to the magnet. The Turanian slumped to the floor and lay motionless, and the Master laughed and hurled the object to fall before Conan's feet--a still-quivering human heart.

And more!

No Howard hero would rely on magic to conquer his foes.

The ENTIRE PLOT of Hour of the Dragon is about Conan fetching a source of magic to defeat his foes. Anyway, we are not all obliged to play Howard's heroes. Pelias or Hadrathus or Zelata exist too.

And anyway... NO Howard Hero? even Solomon Kane?

 

[Majestic7]

Everybody's arguing about the usefulness of spellcasters in Conan, reasoning in terms of number crunching. The fact is that Sorcerers in Conan stories rarely use battle spells. I don't see any reason for them to do so in the game. Furthermore, playing a sorcerer is purely anti Howard. No Howard hero would rely on magic to conquer his foes.
I just think you guys played D&D a bit too much, and that clouded you vision... :wink:

Why should the game be only about playing "heroes"? Sometimes it is equally fine to play villains... Besides, Howard has heroes who arguably use magic. The character Incantation of Amalric Witchman is named after is one example. I'm not sure if you can call Epimetreus a hero - he is more like a plot device - but he is certainly on the side of the "good guys" - if there are any in the Hyborian Age - and uses magic to reach his goals. In the Scarlet Citadel, without help from Pelias, Conan had been unable to stop his enemies. The incantation Kull uses to make snakemen reveal themselves could well be named as magic. Several of Howards modern heroes at least dabble a little in the occult, enough to have a few warding words and motions available against supernatural foes. There are plenty of examples.

 

[Korppis]

Everybody's arguing about the usefulness of spellcasters in Conan, reasoning in terms of number crunching. The fact is that Sorcerers in Conan stories rarely use battle spells. I don't see any reason for them to do so in the game. Furthermore, playing a sorcerer is purely anti Howard. No Howard hero would rely on magic to conquer his foes.
I just think you guys played D&D a bit too much, and that clouded you vision... :wink:

Conan himself didn't only ally himself with an sorcerer in both Hour of a Dragon and Scarlet Citadel but did also use sign of Jebbal Sagh to drive away summoned beasts in Beyond the Black River... Although he was not a sorcerer he was willing to take advantage of their help if it was needed.

 

[Hervé]

Most of the sorcery used by Conan allies is more defensive than offensive, like Wards and Counterspells are in the game. Offensive magic is generally a sign of great evil and isn't too common in the stories, eventhough you can always find counter examples like the Master of Ymsha ripping off the heart of poor Kemsha.

As for playing villains, I agree that it can be fun (at least for time), but again we're getting away from the Howard spirit. It's quite contradictory with all the praise of the "canonical" stuff on this forum. It's no use to spit on pastiche when you allow a corrupted demon bargaining sorceror in your party (and I don't even speak of multi bardiche throwers :wink: )... I don't find this too much canonical. but again, it's only a point of view.

 

[Majestic7]

As for playing villains, I agree that it can be fun (at least for time), but again we're getting away from the Howard spirit. It's quite contradictory with all the praise of the "canonical" stuff on this forum. It's no use to spit on pastiche when you allow a corrupted demon bargaining sorceror in your party (and I don't even speak of multi bardiche throwers :wink: )... I don't find this too much canonical. but again, it's only a point of view.

I'm so big Howard purist that the next step would be to build a personal shrine dedicated to him at some corner of my apartment. Yet I disagree with you very strongly. I think playing according to canon means having the world portray the same kind of spirit as in Howards stories - not to just mindlessly mimic them. Every character can't be Conan - or at least if every character is but a copy of Conan, the game will be very boring. I think any and all characters from Howards stories are good targets of emulation for player characters - whether it means Xaltotun, Taramis or Zelata. Why is allowing a corrupt demon bargaining sorcerer in a party against spirit of Howard - when he writes about such characters? Isn't it extremely well in the spirit of Howard to tell a story of a character who dabbles in magic and ends up having it devour his soul and corrupt his very being in to mockery of human life? I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand the logic. Perhaps it is because I tend to approach RPGs and other stories as well from a simulationist point of view, thinking that even the bad guys need to be full, believeable characters - not just moving parts of the scene located there so the "heroes" can defeat them.

 

[kintire]

It's no use to spit on pastiche when you allow a corrupted demon bargaining sorceror in your party (and I don't even speak of multi bardiche throwers

There is a big difference between "canonical" as in the background and "Canonical" as in mimicking the stories. The pastiches are complained about (at least by me) when they make characters who have already been established in the background (especially Conan) do wierd out of character things or when they contradict the background Howard has established either in fact, for example geographical mistakes, or in theme, for example C ot Isles presenting Mitra as a Big Glowy Cloud Of Goodtm

Its a very different matter objecting when people tell different stories in that background. There ARE corrupted demon bargaining sorcerers in Howard's background. There are also sorcerers who don't seem to be corrupted or demon bargaining (eg Zelata). Conan doesn't like sorcery and doesn't like associating with sorcerers, but he will if necessary and there is nothing to say everyone is like him. A party with a sorcerer in it will be a tale with a different feel to Conan's, but it won't be uncanonical in the sense the pastiches are.

edit: although I too have reservations about the "Backpack Full Of Bardiches" plan...

 

[Style]

I'm so big Howard purist that the next step would be to build a personal shrine dedicated to him at some corner of my apartment.

:lol: