making lemonaide out of lemons

I'm with DaveNC, Clovenhoof and LilithsThrall. I find the idea of a sorcerer PC completely anti-Howard...
There's been many threads already about sorcerers and I agree that most of them base their powers on fear and gimmicks rather than on true sorcery, which is always dangerous and costly in REH stories.
 
Lemonade?

Anyway, it seems like it's important for the character to be useful in combat. That's not unreasonable, though it is easy to be useless in combat while playing lots of non-sorcerous characters.

Counterspells: Never seen these used in combat.

Curses: I've never seen the Ill-Fortune family cast and for good reason in my mind - they suck a ton, unless, of course, you just want to mess with people rather than kill them. Gelid Bones and Weapon Curse are the two that should see play, though Calm of the Adept is highly restricted in our campaign.

Divination: Never seen used in combat. Visions completely changes adventuring.

Hypnotism: Combat use? Not so much, except to take control of party members who have been mind controlled by the baddies. I don't see the harping on hit die limits. You don't have to mess with the powerful NPCs to get the job done.

Nature Magic: How is this not exceedingly strong at low levels? I have a character with a frickin' scorpion as an animal ally who had to carry most of the fighting. Try having a real animal ally. Losing XP is dumb as hell as a mechanic, but it's not the end of the world. Stuff (animals in this case) take up space and that's important even in higher level battles where the animals can't inflict any damage.

Necromancy: Stuff takes up space. Other than tactical combat uses of Raise Corpse, I can't see much combat use until you get to the "you die [maybe]" spells.

Oriental Magic: Heavily restricted in our campaign, so I don't know how effective it is.

Prestidigitation: Telekinesis and Greater are bizarre in that the descriptions explain basically a single effect that is incredibly narrow, though, of course the whole point of these spells is to fling alchemical bombs and poisons; assuming you have such, which seems to be the assumption for sorcerers in Conan, then you have a delivery system for your fireballs/whatever. Conjuring is the real telekinesis and a wonderfully flexible spell, if not a good combat one. Blast Wave has minor random tactical uses. Conjure Item is a lot more interesting after I bothered to read what it does, though the impact in combat is indirect. Deflection sounds unlikely to work since exceeding attack rolls is really hard. Basically, not a good combat style but a great general use style.

Summoning: Irrelevant IMO as whatever you do is going to be broken.

Overall:

Sure, there's very little combat punch in sorcery. That seems to be the point. If there were, everyone would play sorcerers. Nature is the obvious style if you feel the need to be involved in combat at lower levels, probably replaced by alchemy and Prestidigitation at mid levels, and Necromancy at higher levels though it depends upon what the GM allows and throws at you.

Meanwhile, outside of combat, sorcerers are a complete terror. If you want to be effective in combat, play a barbarian. If you want to do stuff no one else can do, play a scholar who does magic. I think it's way too much to expect sorcerers to completely overshadow fightery types.
 
We also have a Scholar in the group. I wasn't too keen on having one, but the player wanted to have a magic user, and I didn't want to ban the class either. So I warned her that scholars aren't that mighty at low levels. As far as I remember, the character hasn't cast a single spell yet, and is poking around with a staff in combat, and otherwise has been useful mainly due to knowledge skills. I suppose she (female player, male character) is going to build something of a martial artist, or maybe a summoner later on, but we'll have to see what happens.

I'm also considering to switch the game to thulsa's sorcerer variant (the Savant), which isn't as restricted in spell acquisition. Apart from that, the scholar class isn't going to see a lot of changes in my game.
 
In my game, magic is grim ,dark and mysterious and always stays in the background. It's a thing of rituals, pacts and sacrifices. I don't use much battle spells or other magic stunts. When assaulted physically by the players, my sorcerers generally don't stand a chance (although they might try a few tricks to attempt an escape). My sorcerers aren't armored battle frenzied fighters wielding soul stealing swords. I leave that for another game.
 
Todays gaming session just came to an end. I think it saw good example of sorcery being used innovatively.

Long background shortened - the characters were in a village overtaken by Mitran fanatics that they assumed to be cultists of the Golden Lord in disguise. Local baron agreed to help the characters to cross a river and continue on their journey if they'd help him get rid of the cultists in a way that would discredit the leaders in the eyes of the followers. Just murdering them was out of question, as it would cause a riot - and he preferred to have his peasants-turned-fanatics back alive to work on the fields. They came up with a plan, which involved a lot of minor magic use to cause a very flashy end result.

The group first acquired a bull and painted it white. Then the alchemists cooked together slowly but brightly burning flammable paste and several doses of Flamepowder. The Hypnotist of the group procedeed to go to look for some victims, whom he forced to engage in public homosexual behavior. This caused the fanatics to beat them up and drag them to their priests for punishment. It was proclaimed that the leader of the "Mitran" priests would preach to the masses in the evening and proclaim punishment for the three immoral men caught in act.

Two of the men snuck at the square beforehand, during day. Other bluffed the guards while the sorcerer, the one with Gelid Bones, hid inside the wooden platform where the high priest would come to hold his sermons. Then the rest of men proceed to prepare the bull for the evening by covering it with the flammable paste. As the moment of the evening sermons drew closer, two infiltrated the religious crowd. The other sorcerer silently pulled their bull through deserted alleys to behind the plaza where the sermon would be held. Route to the platform from the spot was covertly covered with Flamepowder.

As the high priest started preaching, chastising the three "perverts" tied to poles near the platform, the sorcerer hiding with the bull cast Summon Beast, invoking a wolf to come. Then the wolf proceeded to the platform, being obviously friendly with the high priest - the dog and wolf symbolizing in Mitran religion people who are not really truly faithful even when they pose as such, but rather seek to do harm from within. The two men who were within the crowd started to agitate them, pointing out symbolism of the strange event. Meanwhile, the bull was killed with coup de grace and reanimated with Raise Dead. Paste on its body was set aflame and the necromancer guided the animated bull on its way to the square. The faithful gathered to listen to the sermon saw a flaming white bull appear, each strike of its hooves causing a small explosion (from Flamepowder) and leaving behind it trail of flames and smoke. The crowd, already struck by religious fervor, was hit by hysteria, as they say what appeared to be embodiment of Mitra appear before their very eyes. The two good speakers hidden among the crowd did their best to further inflame fervor of the people around them.

The high priest was now completely out of his frame of mind, unable to understand what the hell was going on. Thus he had no way to avoid a stealthy touch on his foot through the boards of his platform. I'm not sure whether the spell cast was Death Touch or Gelid Bones but it did its trick, causing the priest fall flat on his face just as the flaming white bull pounded its way up on the platform. The crowd watched in religious awe as the avatar of their god trampled the priest in to mass of unrecognizable gore. Then the necromancer controlling the creature sent it to run at the bottom of the nearby river, followed by fanatical crowd. The two men running with the mob did their best to start a riot - succeeding to turn the fanatics on their own priests, shredding them to pieces in religious revelry as they believed that Mitra himself had sent a heavenly bull to show that their leaders were misleading them.

With good planning and smart usage of alchemical tricks and a few basic spells, the group managed to create a convincing counterfeit miracle. The touch spell from underneath the platform was not really necessary for the plan to work - poison, sneak attack or anything like that would have been enough to make the priest fall before the bull - or it could have just trambled him to death. Story of the "miracle" would travel wide and far, with effect on communities in a similar situation that neither the cult nor the group might not have been able to foresee.
 
Scholar is insanely powerful with the right build.

Knot wind can basically take out one opponent every round for 1PP per round, and takes them entirely out of the combat if they're on a ship near the rail.

Gelid bones is also basically a kill shot, since you can then torture them to death over hours.

Dread serpent kills.

Greater Telekinesis on a high Dex character with Spawn of Dagoth Hill feat. Character carries around a dozen loosely-bound bardiches in the guise of selling them as a merchant would. Pop a snap to loose the bardiches as a free action and cast GT, hitting opponents for 2d10 for every single power point spent. For a mid-level caster (5ish), that can be 20d10 damage with 10PPs. With opportunistic sacrifice, most of those PPs can be gained back and used on another opponent the following round. And now you're at a bonus to hit, thanks to your previous kill(s).

Compare that to an archer of that level.
 
Greater Telekinesis on a high Dex character with Spawn of Dagoth Hill feat. Character carries around a dozen loosely-bound bardiches in the guise of selling them as a merchant would. Pop a snap to loose the bardiches as a free action and cast GT, hitting opponents for 2d10 for every single power point spent. For a mid-level caster (5ish), that can be 20d10 damage with 10PPs. With opportunistic sacrifice, most of those PPs can be gained back and used on another opponent the following round. And now you're at a bonus to hit, thanks to your previous kill(s).

Now I can tell why I hate D20 so much... :shock:
 
librarycharlie said:
Greater Telekinesis on a high Dex character with Spawn of Dagoth Hill feat. Character carries around a dozen loosely-bound bardiches in the guise of selling them as a merchant would. Pop a snap to loose the bardiches as a free action and cast GT, hitting opponents for 2d10 for every single power point spent. For a mid-level caster (5ish), that can be 20d10 damage with 10PPs. With opportunistic sacrifice, most of those PPs can be gained back and used on another opponent the following round. And now you're at a bonus to hit, thanks to your previous kill(s).

Compare that to an archer of that level.

Emm...except that Greater Telekinesis requires the character to still hit the opponent and he can only send flying one item per scholar level. So level five sorcerer can only send flying five bardiches and has to hit with every one of them with BAB of +3. Of course, I'm not sure if Greater Telekinesis has been changed in the Second Edition, but this is how it reads in the Atlantean Edition. So, although the spell is certainly a good one, it is not as good as you claim. It can only be used a few times a day, requires attack roll vs dodge defence which is not easy to achieve by pure scholars and carrying big weapons all the time everywhere is not very plausible.
 
As I've said, the Sorcerer is insanely weak, *but* there are a few spells which are game breaking in the other direction. Greater Telekinesis is one of them. Flying bardiches are okay, but look at what alchemical weapons can do in the same build.
In any event, the end point is the same. The Sorcerer class sucks as a PC. It isn't balanced in any conceivable manner. In the majority of cases, it is far weaker than the other PCs. In a few ways, it overwhelms the game.
It makes me wonder how much game design experience the guy had who wrote the class and why mongoose doesn't fix it.
 
The "problem" is Mongoose did their best to reproduce the way sorcerers are in the Howard tales, and they actually did a pretty good job of that considering they were confined to the D20 system. If they balanced the sorcerer so that it was as effective as other classes in straight up combat, it wouldn't be as close to Howard as it currently is.
 
LilithsThrall said:
As I've said, the Sorcerer is insanely weak, *but* there are a few spells which are game breaking in the other direction. Greater Telekinesis is one of them. Flying bardiches are okay, but look at what alchemical weapons can do in the same build.
In any event, the end point is the same. The Sorcerer class sucks as a PC. It isn't balanced in any conceivable manner. In the majority of cases, it is far weaker than the other PCs. In a few ways, it overwhelms the game.
It makes me wonder how much game design experience the guy had who wrote the class and why mongoose doesn't fix it.

You've said this a few times. Based on what?

First of all, there is no sorcerer class. There's a scholar class. Can you point to what you think is weak about it? Can you make some effort to compare against the other classes?

My view is that there's only three PC classes in the game worth playing: barbarian, thief, and scholar. Scholar could easily be the most powerful of those because there are substitutes for everything besides magic.

The weak classes that blow my mind in terms of game balance are the soldier and noble, though the borderer and nomad are the most pointless classes since barbarian is just strictly better. I base this on the ludicrously low skill ranks the soldier gets, which makes it incapable of doing anything besides fighting, of the awful special abilities the noble gets, of how both have numerous dead levels where they get nothing of value, of how their saves are weak.
 
I just don't understand this thread.
Someone gripes about the sorceror/scholar (I'll call him a sorceror) being rather weak.
WE all agree but say hey this aint DnD, its REH. But there are some neat spells that he can cast such as...
Then he says the sorceror still sucks.
We say, hey, try house ruling, he says no that's altering the rules, I only play RAW.
Then this thread goes on a few times back and forth.

OK I don't get what's going on. I understand if you don't like the game as its written, don't play it.
If you want to play the game as written, well suffer the good and bad together.
If you want a sorceror to have coole spellcasting abilities and spells, what is stopping you from writing your own spells and sorcery system? Just because Vincent D. or Thulsa writes a spell doesn't make it any more or less thanif you wrote it. So if you wanted to write-up a "Magic Missile" spell, just do it. If you want twink the rules to level the playing field, just do it.

It amazes the heck out of me how hidebound some people are on this forum to be completely obstinate in their ways and then get argumentative when someone tries to point an alternative way.

Now I'm all for constructive arguments here, it is a forum after all, but some of this is just pointless. This may be why one of the other threads "Has this forum stalled?" be so appropriate.
 
LilithsThrall said:
As I've said, the Sorcerer is insanely weak, *but* there are a few spells which are game breaking in the other direction. Greater Telekinesis is one of them. Flying bardiches are okay, but look at what alchemical weapons can do in the same build.
In any event, the end point is the same. The Sorcerer class sucks as a PC. It isn't balanced in any conceivable manner. In the majority of cases, it is far weaker than the other PCs. In a few ways, it overwhelms the game.
It makes me wonder how much game design experience the guy had who wrote the class and why mongoose doesn't fix it.

Didn't the example I wrote about that flaming bull show that sorcerers are extremely useful, simply by the virtue of being able to do things that would not be otherwise possible and that even the most basic spells can be used very succesfully to change things at a larger scale?

What comes to using Greater Telekinesis to lob alchemical items being somehow game breaking - it will cost a lot. Throwing, say, five Kothic Fires with the same spell means that the shot you just sent flying cost 2500 sp! Even if the character made the bombs himself, it still was worth half of that. It is simply so expensive that it is not a viable tactic to be used all the time and there is not endless amount of alchemical stuff available on the market - or opportunity to make them everywhere. I really don't have trouble with a sorcerer hitting someone with five Kothic Fires in the same round with Greater Telekinesis. First, he will need to hit with each with his poor BAB. Second, he can most likely only do that once and it will take considerable amount of resources since the bombs are so valuable. If it takes out some big bad guy, well, I guess the money was well spent. Hidden Death use makes hitting with them more likely, sure, but it is not as overpowering in any way at all.
 
Hervé said:
It just seems like, as always with D20, some people are confusing Role playing and Roll playing.

...but if some people like rollplaying, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Although I certainly prefer a certain style of gaming and there are some styles I certainly don't like, I still think everyone can play as they like. Being able to enjoy the same game in a different ways is just a strength, not a weakness.
 
It just seems like, as always with D20, some people are confusing Role playing and Roll playing

Your prejudice is noted. Confusing role playing with Roll playing is not particularly associated with d20. What's more, the accusation too often serves as a dismissal of attempts to make systems work, and that seems to be the case here.

As I've said, the Sorcerer is insanely weak,

You've said that a scholar doesn't perform that well in combat, which is generally true. This is the first time you have said that it is insanely weak in general, which is absurd.
 
I agree with you Majestic7. Everyone can use the game as he likes, no problem about this. It's just a bad joke about technical stuff I personally never be able to understand on a tabletop Rpg. D20 is a game of combos and technical stuff that reminds strongly of video games. For me, using scripted attacks and spend my time in number crunching simply doesn't have anything to do with roleplaying. It might be OK for WoW or FF but it doesn't fit my (narrow? :wink: ) vision of roleplaying. Anyway, it's a personal view and I'm as free to see things that way as others are to build up improbable combos...
 
Considering those "five bardiches", that is clearly a kind of twinking I'd never allow in my game, effective or not. I'm really not obsessive about packs and storage locations, but that character ain't pulling out five big polearms out his ass. Normally you can carry _one_ two-handed weapon (usually over the shoulder). Maybe two, but that's going to look mighty stupid.

If you want to fake a merchant, you'll need a pack animal or a cart, unto whichever your merchandise will have to be secured so it doesn't fall off or clang around. Zip, no objects "lying around".

You _may_ have a single bardiche that you hurl at your enemy with Telekineses. That's fine, you pay PP, you may do damage. But since the roll is a Ranged Attack Roll, I'm not at all convinced a Scholar shouldn't receive a -4 nonproficiency penalty for trying to attack with a Martial Weapon. Unlike throwing a rock, it matters which end hits the target.

Scholars have a number of dangerous and deadly spells at their disposition; probably the most badass one is the aforementioned Dread Serpent. Make a Will Save or Die. How much more deadly do you want it?
 
Well, wouldnt it be more effective and fit the setting more both if the sorceror in question had a bunch of daggers or knives coated in poison to hurl at his foes instead of bardiches? I mean, bardiches are hug great axes, basically, right? Even if you found a bunch of them, somehow, how would he carry them? And if you dont, they arent cheap. Or at least, not as cheap as a dagger or knife.

And with poison, you also get that opportunity to terrify your opponents if the poison in question is a particularly gruesome one.

Just a thought.
 
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