making lemonaide out of lemons

[LilithsThrall]

Sorcerers suck. We all know it. The rules are atrocious and the class is woefully inadequate. I got in a dispute with the other players at our table Friday. They argued that the class doesn't suck and then spent the night having their sorcerers not play by the rules (one used telekinesis to take a weapon out of a villain's hands and used bust barrier to destroy something other than a barrier, the other summoned an elemental despite not being of high enough level to cast that spell).
If you need to ignore the rules in order to make the class playable, that's a good indication that sorcerers suck.
Having had my rant, what are the tricks other players here use in order to make the class playable without breaking the rules? I ask because, while the class sucks mechanics-wise, its an intriguing class flavor-wise, one I'd love to play if it were playable.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I should add that there are a few spells which actually are powerful - shapechange, summon demon, etc., but these are -far- too powerful and unbalance the game in the other direction.
So, they should be avoided.
That limits the options in the other direction.
So, how do you as players of the game, avoid the suckiness of the Sorcerer? What tricks do you use to make the Sorcerer playable without breaking the rules?

 

[Majestic7]

I'm running a campaign that started at level two, with two sorcerers. They have never sucked. Another one is very good at combat, while the second excels at social situations. Thus, I don't understand your claim.

However, I've houseruled that the armor spell failure does not exist. That is just stupid thing that has passed over from D&D with no basis on Hyborian lore. Those two sorcerers are as well multiclassed - first one has one level as soldier and the second one is noble/tempter/sorcerer.

 

[DaveNC]

In our games, we don't use the Sorcerer as a Player Character, exactly for the reasons that you describe. At the lower levels, they are practically worthless. As NPCs and villians, they are great because they really up the ante with those very powerful spells.

Also, when you think about the REH Conan stories, the Sorcerers were more schemers and dangerous through summoning demons than in actual combat itself. Once Conan got past the hencemen and demons from the pit, the Sorcerer's head would come off pretty easy!

 

[LilithsThrall]

I'm running a campaign that started at level two, with two sorcerers. They have never sucked. Another one is very good at combat, while the second excels at social situations. Thus, I don't understand your claim.

However, I've houseruled that the armor spell failure does not exist. That is just stupid thing that has passed over from D&D with no basis on Hyborian lore. Those two sorcerers are as well multiclassed - first one has one level as soldier and the second one is noble/tempter/sorcerer.

Tell me more about these sorcerers. One excels at social situations, you say? Did he/she fall into the trap of taking hypnotism spells (which will become useless as he gains levels)? What does the other one do to be good at combat?

 

[Clovenhoof]

Yeah.... what DaveNC said.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Yeah.... what DaveNC said.

Then the Sorcerer should have been in the back of the book with the other monsters and NPCs. Its confusing that its listed in the player character section.

 

[Majestic7]

Tell me more about these sorcerers. One excels at social situations, you say? Did he/she fall into the trap of taking hypnotism spells (which will become useless as he gains levels)? What does the other one do to be good at combat?

RAW you can use magic power attack to overcome HD limitations on spell and since 2nd Edition, sorcerers come inbuilt with that ability - no need to spend a feat on it. One of the few things I incorporated from the new edition. Yeah, but now that you mentioned it, I have another house rule concerning sorcery in place - no HD limits.

The "social sorcerer", Dionysos, has Necromancy, Hypnotism, Divination and Nature. He has lately really saved asses of the whole party several times with the overgrowth spell, that is very useful. Divination has given many times strategic and tactical advantages with Visions, Psychometry and now Dreams of Wisdom. Raising the dead can be surprisingly useful, since the walking corpses freak out people and can set off traps. Hypnotic Suggestion and Dominate has proven to be useful at a variety of situations. Even just plain Entrance can be useful in combat, when the party includes someone with sneak attack. Dread Serpent is just plain murder. However, these hypnotism spells are less useful RAW.

The more combat-orientated sorcerer has Curses, Oriental, Counterspells and Necromancy. He is stuck with a three-point obsession that hampers his spellcasting quite a lot. However, Gelid Bones and variable curses has proven to be rather useful. Calm of the Adept is a rather good, long-lasting boost spell. Many spells of Oriental Magic are rather useless RAW - such as Warrior's Trance - but we changed that so that it lasts one minute per level instead of one round - and the enchantment bonus comes to armed combat as well. The warding spells have saved the day several times and Incantation of Amalric Witchman is a wonderful spell to have for a (demonic) rainy day.

So, although the sorcerers are stronger with my house rules in place, they'd certainly have been useful without them as well. Mainly some spells have been designed badly and the spell failure from armor simply does not make any sense. Scholar as a class is very cool. If I were playing Conan instead of being GM, my character would be a non-sorcerous Scholar, something of an archeologist, perhaps dabbling with Alchemy and archery (through multiclass of a level or two).

 

[Krushnak]

I find sorcerer's to be fine. The HD limit on the hypnotism spells is only a problem if the uses the Fethed up rubbish from d&d and scales most npcs up in hd all the time, they are awesome at low level and are always awesome to deal with towngaurds, mooks and rousing rabble on your side. The trick is to be inventive and encourage thinking out side the box with your sorcerous pc's. they are not meant to be powerful at low level, they can be dangerous but if you come into a Conan game with the impression or expectation that sorcerers should be a powerhouse early on then i think we may have been reading about a different Conan.

Magic powerattack has already been stated and is now a free feature for all sorcerers can push the hd limit as high as they want or make the save dc quite high.

I've had 2 sorcerers in my game. one is still the party, the other blew himself up. to elaborate i let him use the old defensive blast(i told him i didnt like it but would let him use it cause it was our very first time with conan) but with the warning that a roll of a nat 1 on the magic attack roll would result in magical backlash. the second time he used db he rolled a 1, then rolled a 1 on the will save, then rolled a nat 20 on the degree of disaster table. he blew himself up but took half an island and dozens of pictish savages with him.

one thing i do in my game is never let the rules stand in the way of the story. if the rules hinder something cool from happening or kills the moment then i use gm fiat and brush it aside. one example of this is allowing the sorcerer to use spells from a style he knows without actually knowing the spell. pc knew counterspells and lesser ward but needed to get the effect of greater ward to banish a demon from a child. so i had him roll a know arcana check and make a magic attack roll against some arbitrarily set dc and he passed it was a memorable moment for him as he managed to save the child ut hurting himself in the process.

 

[LilithsThrall]

RAW you can use magic power attack to overcome HD limitations on spell and since 2nd Edition, sorcerers come inbuilt with that ability - no need to spend a feat on it.

If true, this is very encouraging. But where is it stated in the book?

Hypnotism can be useful, sure, as long as you aren't running into the hit die limit. Since you've house ruled that, your example is outside the realm of discussion.

variable curses has proven to be rather useful

Which curses have been useful, exactly? And how?

but we changed that so that it lasts one minute per level instead of one round

It seems you've house ruled quite a lot in order to make the class playable. My original question was, "what are the tricks other players here use in order to make the class playable without breaking the rules?"

So, although the sorcerers are stronger with my house rules in place, they'd certainly have been useful without them as well.

Seriously, I want to believe you, but you've provided no evidence to support that claim. That leaves me wondering how it can be possible.

The trick is to be inventive and encourage thinking out side the box with your sorcerous pc's

I keep hearing this. That's why I asked for the tricks Sorcerer character players use to make the class playable without breaking the rules. I still haven't gotten an answer to that question.

one thing i do in my game is never let the rules stand in the way of the story. if the rules hinder something cool from happening or kills the moment then i use gm fiat and brush it aside.

That's all fine and good, but you are telling me that to make the class playable, you have to igore the rules. You're agreeing with me.

 

[Majestic7]

Hypnotism can be useful, sure, as long as you aren't running into the hit die limit. Since you've house ruled that, your example is outside the realm of discussion.

Umm, no? Using magic power attack keeps hypnotism useful even without my house rules. Plus like Krushnak said, there are often lower HD people around in variety of circumstances who can be affected with hypnotism even without magic power attack. Perhaps not in combat - but in other situations, such as dominating a servant of a noble manor to open the side door for the party to enter. Just because some spell is not useful in combat against 10 or 20 HD foes does not mean that it is not useful at all. It all depends on the circumstances. If the nature of the campaign mainly involves fighting 20 HD monsters, hypnotism won't be much of an use - but neither will Gather Information, unless you try to ask the monsters about their weak spots. Does that mean social skills are useless or broken? I don't think so.

Which curses have been useful, exactly? And how?

Greater Ill-fortune has spoiled the day (actually, months) for both NPCs and PCs when they have been on the receiving end. Gelid Bones is a curse and definetely useful. The curse that causes all wind around the target to die has had several strategic uses in the campaign. Foxing is a horrible, horrible curse for killing someone safely from afar. The same goes to Doom of the Doll.

It seems you've house ruled quite a lot in order to make the class playable. My original question was, "what are the tricks other players here use in order to make the class playable without breaking the rules?"

It is completely playable without "breaking the rules". Just use magic power attack to overcome HD limits and the like. Whether the sorcerer is capable of wearing armor or not is not a big deal. This is especially true as Scholar as a class is perfectly playable even without any spells at all. So are you talking about Scholar class or sorcerers? They are not always one and the same.

Seriously, I want to believe you, but you've provided no evidence to support that claim. That leaves me wondering how it can be possible.

Evidence? Should I provide recording of a gaming session or something? (I'd put a smiley here if I'd use them..) But seriously, I could think of a hundred places where unmodified spells used without effect of our house rules have saved the day. In last two sessions, casting Sorcerous Garden delayed pursuing horsemen several times with its overgrowth use. Without the spell, the group would have been forced in to a fight they could not have win - two or three times, if not more. Gelid Bones has paralyzed dozens of foes in combat that had been very hard to vanquish otherwise. Calm of the Adept has saved life of the caster from a very nasty stuff that would have fell on him otherwise. Domination and Suggestion, used in par with Conan rules (the victim has had HD under the limit) has given critical information or other help at various places. Visions has given the party information they had not received otherwise, together with Psychometry, as well as warning them of mortal dangers - so they've been able to prepare for them.

Raise Corpse has provided a servant, that has both set off traps in tombs, scared weak-willed opponents and drawn fire from the enemy - not to mention carrying, dragging and moving heavy stuff. Finally, Warding and Greater Warding has prevented sorcerous doom falling on the characters many times or provided cure for on-going effects. Incantation of Amalric Witchman once incapacitated a demon that would have otherwise been impossible to win. The War of Souls is not a spell, but it has proven to be a decisive factor in two critical combat encounters.

I could come up with more examples - especially if I started to take in to account spells that NPCs, both friendly and hostile have used - but there's a few. Note that those are only the ones found from the basic book. There are more useful spells, used succesfully, from other books. Scent of Rot and Fear (or something like that) has been a life-saver, for example.

I keep hearing this. That's why I asked for the tricks Sorcerer character players use to make the class playable without breaking the rules. I still haven't gotten an answer to that question.

Perhaps that's because there are thousands and thousands of things to do, depending on the situation at hand. Like I said, if the game is primarily only about endless combat, low-level sorcerer won't be able to do much usually. In other places, sorcery can be extremely useful. Divination and Nature magic are especially powerful, as they allow the caster to do things that are pretty much impossible, or at least very hard, to do by mundane means. Counterspells are very powerful for the same reason.

That's all fine and good, but you are telling me that to make the class playable, you have to igore the rules. You're agreeing with me.

You really don't have to do anything at all to make the Scholar class or the sorcerers "playable". It's just that they don't fit for all players - they won't be killing loads of enemies with a greatsword, so if that is what the player wants, he won't get it.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Before I go on to any other point, where is this 'sorcerous power attack' you keep talking about?

Now, let's go on to each example you've provided
* "Greater Ill-fortune has spoiled the day (actually, months) for both NPCs and PCs when they have been on the receiving end."
Let's assume that the character maxes out his Wisdom. He gets 8pp at first level. When he gets this spell, he'll have 10 PP. This spell costs 8 PP. So, he casts it and drops down to 2 PP. He's basically using all he's got to cast this spell and, of course, the target still gets a save. Let's remember, Sorcerers usually don't enter combat fresh out of a power ritual.

*"Gelid Bones is a curse and definetely useful."
Yeah, sure, Gelid Bones is a nice spell. I just think its pretty damning that its the spell almost everyone brings up when somebody is talking about how weak sorcerers are. One-trick ponies aren't a good thing.

*"The curse that causes all wind around the target to die has had several strategic uses in the campaign."
I have no idea what curse this is.

*"Whether the sorcerer is capable of wearing armor or not is not a big deal."
I haven't said a word about whether sorcerers are able to wear armor. I'm holding off on commenting on that.

*"In last two sessions, casting Sorcerous Garden delayed pursuing horsemen several times with its overgrowth use. Without the spell, the group would have been forced in to a fight they could not have win - two or three times, if not more."
A bit single-purpose, but, yeah, I'll admit that if you are in a very narrowly defined situation, sorcerous garden will be useful.

*"Calm of the Adept has saved life of the caster from a very nasty stuff that would have fell on him otherwise."
What, the +1 bonus to his AC? There's less than a 5% chance that a +1 bonus will be significant.

*"Domination and Suggestion, used in par with Conan rules (the victim has had HD under the limit)"
I've agreed that the hypnotism spells can be useful as long as you can avoid the hit die trap.

*"Raise Corpse has provided a servant, that has both set off traps in tombs, scared weak-willed opponents and drawn fire from the enemy - not to mention carrying, dragging and moving heavy stuff."
Slaves are cheap and having one is less likely to get you burned at the stake.

*"Warding and Greater Warding has prevented sorcerous doom falling on the characters many times or provided cure for on-going effects"
yeah, I'll acknowledge this one.

*"It's just that they don't fit for all players - they won't be killing loads of enemies with a greatsword, so if that is what the player wants, he won't get it."
I don't need a character to kill loads of enemies with a greatsword. I just need him to be useful in combat without doing the same thing over and over again. Having seen the Temptress have litle to nothing to during combat, I'm not interested in playing a character stuck in the same quandary.

 

[throrII]

Liliths, it sounds like you are refusing to listen to anyone who says otherwise. You are being shown how the sorcerer class functions, despite your claims.

If you are ascerting that the sorcerer class is not a front line combat class, you are right. sorcerer's are best used to protect (wards, etc), cripple (curses), influcence (hypnotism) or cause great damage from behind the scenes (necromancy-especially Black Plague and the like). Somem of these may not be the best 'combat' spells, but they can be very important in non-combat, pre-combat, or social situations. Much like D&D wizards, they are weaker at low levels, but can be world-bending at higher levels.

This is not D&D, with fireballs out the a$$ and lightning bolts out any other oriface of your choice. Actually, lightning bolt exists, as 'Bottled Thunder'. The spells are virtually the same, only the components and application thereof are a little different and more strictly defined.

You seem to only know the core book spells, I suggest you get 1e Scrolls of Skelos, Free Companies, and Pirate Isles---there are several new spells in each.

 

[LilithsThrall]

<snip>

How can you, with one breath, accuse me of not listening, and in the very next breath, ask, "If you are ascerting that the sorcerer class is not a front line combat class"? I think that demonstrates pretty clearly who isn't listening. Also, when did I ever protest that Sorcerers don't cast fireball??

 

[Majestic7]

Before I go on to any other point, where is this 'sorcerous power attack' you keep talking about?

As a feat, in Scrolls of Skelos. I don't own the second edition, so I can't give you the page where it is at that book. If you are asking how it works, it simply means that the sorcerer can burn extra power points to get +1 for his Magic Attack and get the HD limit up.

Now, let's go on to each example you've provided
* "Greater Ill-fortune has spoiled the day (actually, months) for both NPCs and PCs when they have been on the receiving end."
Let's assume that the character maxes out his Wisdom. He gets 8pp at first level. When he gets this spell, he'll have 10 PP. This spell costs 8 PP. So, he casts it and drops down to 2 PP. He's basically using all he's got to cast this spell and, of course, the target still gets a save. Let's remember, Sorcerers usually don't enter combat fresh out of a power ritual.

Mine do. When they know they are going in to combat, they prepare by smoking black lotus, sacrificing animals (and slaves and prisoners) and energy draining. Things are of course different if they are surprised. Plus, why do you assume that curses and spells in general, are cast only in combat? There are a plenty of spells - such Greater Ill-Fortune - that can be cast through a magical link. If you know you are going after someone, you can use Hypnotism, stealth or just old-fashioned bribing to get a magical link of them it possible - then cast a few hexes their way the day before you trash in their place to cut their throats, for example. Or curse a fleeing enemy with his blood on your sword being the magical link, so that if you happen to cross paths with him again, the chances are that he is at disadvantage then. Magic use does not equate combat. In fact, smart sorcerer uses his magical means to avoid combat or make sure the combat is won even before it has began. You should as well note the Rule of Success - if the spell goes through as intended, casting it again is at halved PP cost. These cheaper castings continue all the way to 1 PP. "Pushing it" allows the sorcerer to further expand his powers by casting one final spell so that he goes at negative points. This is usually not something to look forward to, but may save his life at a bad situation.

*"Gelid Bones is a curse and definetely useful."
Yeah, sure, Gelid Bones is a nice spell. I just think its pretty damning that its the spell almost everyone brings up when somebody is talking about how weak sorcerers are. One-trick ponies aren't a good thing.

Well, Dread Serpent and Death Touch are even stronger spells. My campaign has just seen Gelid Bones used a lot - and it is a curse. You asked for curses.

*"The curse that causes all wind around the target to die has had several strategic uses in the campaign."
I have no idea what curse this is.

I don't remember name of the spell and can't be bothered to skim through books trying to remember. It is most likely in Pirate Isles. It causes wind around the target to die down and not appear again. So it causes ships to get stranded middle of ocean etc. Rather specialized, but still very good.

*"Whether the sorcerer is capable of wearing armor or not is not a big deal."
I haven't said a word about whether sorcerers are able to wear armor. I'm holding off on commenting on that.

That pointed towards my house rules. They only change sorcerers really by allowing them to wear armor and ignoring HD limits. I do use spells converted from Call of Cthulhu in my game - but this discussion is about Conan vanilla spells. Official Conan spells actually see far more use both by PCs and NPCs. I as a GM mainly use CoC spells only when I want to freak out the players.

*"In last two sessions, casting Sorcerous Garden delayed pursuing horsemen several times with its overgrowth use. Without the spell, the group would have been forced in to a fight they could not have win - two or three times, if not more."
A bit single-purpose, but, yeah, I'll admit that if you are in a very narrowly defined situation, sorcerous garden will be useful.

There has never been a battle in the history of man where the ability to completely control the movements of your enemy, if available, have not been a key to success. Sorcerous Garden overgrowth is not simply useful in one situation - it is useful in all combat situations, if you can use magic openly. You can put your enemies inside a jungle, while leaving yourself free space as you see fit. It is awesome advantage. Besides, the strategic usages of the same spell are great as well - such as growing Black Lotus for your own use. It is one of the best spells in the game.

*"Calm of the Adept has saved life of the caster from a very nasty stuff that would have fell on him otherwise."
What, the +1 bonus to his AC? There's less than a 5% chance that a +1 bonus will be significant.

No, the main thing is that Calm of the Adept makes the character immune to all spells from Hypnotism school - includes illusions of all kind. It can be a great boon at various circumstances. It as well negates the bonus sorcerers with Hypnotism get to their magic attack rolls in the War of Souls. I'm not sure if this latter part is RAW or not, but that is how we play it and it seems like a logical conclusion. The rules are ambivalent.

*"Raise Corpse has provided a servant, that has both set off traps in tombs, scared weak-willed opponents and drawn fire from the enemy - not to mention carrying, dragging and moving heavy stuff."
Slaves are cheap and having one is less likely to get you burned at the stake.

..but slaves don't cause Terror checks to your enemies. Killing one of your foes and then having his companions see him raise as an undead being, mindlessly howling as his soul is on its way to some nameless Hell is not exactly everyday experience. Sure, if you do that middle of street in Tarantia, it won't be very smart ( though that will surely give a few points of Reputation, hehe) - but that's the thing with all schools of sorcery, perhaps with the exception of Hypnotism that is often stealthy. Slaves don't as well obey you mindlessly. You can't tell them to jam a trap of whirling blades with their bodies and except them to obey or the like.

I don't need a character to kill loads of enemies with a greatsword. I just need him to be useful in combat without doing the same thing over and over again. Having seen the Temptress have litle to nothing to during combat, I'm not interested in playing a character stuck in the same quandary.

Ah I see - you want the sorcerer to be useful in combat. You should have said that in the first place. It is very, very different from saying that sorcerers are unplayable. They are just better at things not directly related to combat. However, they can excel at combat as well, though in different ways than any other character. They are at their best in controlling the battlefield and killing/disabling the big bad evil guys, while the muscle wade through the sea of bleeding mooks. If you want to think of a way for a sorcerer to kill someone by properly using his powers, you should think like an assassin, not like a axe-wielding barbarian. Being crafty, stealthy and ruthless is the key. Just like the sorcerers Howard describes. They operate through guile and intellect, not sheer force.

I should add that it seems you are familiar only with spells from the core book or am I wrong here? For example, the Scrolls of Skelos has a plenty of very strong Hypnotism spells. If you've seen them and still say that Hypnotism - and sorcerers in general - are useless in combat, I can only say that you are just plain flat wrong.

 

[LilithsThrall]

If you know you are going after someone

That's a gigantic assumption you've got there. Most times, the GM has set it up so we have no idea what we're heading into.

There has never been a battle in the history of man where the ability to completely control the movements of your enemy, if available, have not been a key to success.

Except that this spell isn't all that useful in most combats because it affects your party as well.

the main thing is that Calm of the Adept makes the character immune to all spells from Hypnotism school

No, it doesn't.

If you want to think of a way for a sorcerer to kill someone by properly using his powers, you should think like an assassin, not like a axe-wielding barbarian. Being crafty, stealthy and ruthless is the key.

This is the first really solid piece of advice I've gotten in this thread. Thanks.

I should add that it seems you are familiar only with spells from the core book or am I wrong here?

You're right. I'm eagerly anticipating the release of Secrets of Skelos in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Majestic7]

That's a gigantic assumption you've got there. Most times, the GM has set it up so we have no idea what we're heading into.

That is one of the many things sorcery is good for. Divination. Cast Visions on the place and you then have an idea.

Except that this spell isn't all that useful in most combats because it affects your party as well.

No, it does not - unless they wade in the jungle. Straight excerpt from the spell description in AE - "The sorcerer may designate places within the area that are not affected." So the caster may select within the area of overgrowth parts, however and where-ever he wishes, that are not affected by the overgrowth. Such as a path leading outside for the party - or single five feet squares for them to stand on. Whatever the caster wishes and sees sensible at the moment.

No, it doesn't.

I'm afraid you remember it wrong or have misread it? AE, page 213, Calm of the Adept. "Furthermore, you are completely immune to all spells and spell-like abilities of Hypnotism sorcery style for the duration of this spell." This is certainly the main use of the spell, not +2 to Wis, Cha and Dex.

 

[LilithsThrall]

That is one of the many things sorcery is good for. Divination. Cast Visions on the place and you then have an idea.

Assuming you have time to cast divination. The GM in our game sets a tone which is so chaotic that its not at all clear where we're going when. It makes sense in hindsight, but not before hand (and I've been playing RPGs for years, so I know how to figure things out).

No, it does not - unless they wade in the jungle. Straight excerpt from the spell description in AE - "The sorcerer may designate places within the area that are not affected." So the caster may select within the area of overgrowth parts, however and where-ever he wishes, that are not affected by the overgrowth. Such as a path leading outside for the party - or single five feet squares for them to stand on. Whatever the caster wishes and sees sensible at the moment.

The caster can determine where the unhindered parts of ground are. Then the enemy will fade back and hit from a different angle. They'll back you into the jungle if they can.

I'm afraid you remember it wrong or have misread it? AE, page 213, Calm of the Adept. "Furthermore, you are completely immune to all spells and spell-like abilities of Hypnotism sorcery style for the duration of this spell." This is certainly the main use of the spell, not +2 to Wis, Cha and Dex.

Conan 2nd ed, "You gain a +2 to any Will save made to resist spells of the Hypnotism school or similar mesmeric effects." I'm writing it straight from the book.

 

[Majestic7]

Assuming you have time to cast divination. The GM in our game sets a tone which is so chaotic that its not at all clear where we're going when. It makes sense in hindsight, but not before hand (and I've been playing RPGs for years, so I know how to figure things out).

Mmh, but can't you choose where you are going? Or is it more about railroaded encounters from place A to place C without a chance to choose? If you can't really plan anything or the like, sure, it maims most of divination.

The caster can determine where the unhindered parts of ground are. Then the enemy will fade back and hit from a different angle. They'll back you into the jungle if they can.

Yeah, but the caster can drop the jungle on them, trapping them inside. Or two castings can cover a huge amount of land, leaving only one narrow pass through. The uses are really great - good placing can make wonders! It is all about tactical eye on the situation. After seeing it in action now and having it maim my best attempts to kill all the player characters, I can say that it is very effective when it is properly used.

Conan 2nd ed, "You gain a +2 to any Will save made to resist spells of the Hypnotism school or similar mesmeric effects." I'm writing it straight from the book.

Well, I don't have the second edition. A shame, they made the spell useless if that's the only use it has, plus +2 on three stats. Well, I'm sticking to AE. I really can't see why they did that...

 

[Spectator]

Cuz I am a spelling asshole; it's "Lemonaid" not "Lemonaide."