Let's just call it "Traveller", shall we?

[EDG]

That lot didn't bring down GDW, but they did nearly destroy the online community around Traveller. The timely arrival of the World Wide Web ultimately allowed the community to route around the damage (as the internet is known to do) as it were, but there are reasons the TNE fans keep largely to themselves online, even now.

I think the internet actually exacerbated it, myself. If there wasn't an instant way to communicate ideas and opinions, I don't think the hate would have been anywhere near so much and wouldn't have spread as fast either. People would have formulated their opinions on their own, without influence from others.

The internet's a mixed blessing really...

 

[far-trader]

I'm in.

The current version has already, I'm sure, outsold all previous edition core books...

Do we really need yet more hyperbole without facts? I mean how are you even going to start making a fair comparison? Number of sales by word? By page? What page size? Converting past currency to present? Yeesh.

It's cool you like it and all but give me a break...

...or I suppose I can start throwing out proclamations as well to counter the RTT love festival

Just say you like it, and why if you care to, but please don't keep tossing invented statistics out about how RTT is the salvation of humanity. At least not without the 8 out of 10 cats polled "Word of God" backing you up

 

[zozotroll]

Hey I am in and I am so old I dont really remeber what year I played my first game, but for sure before 1980.

And I certainly bought a ton of GDW stuff besides Tarvaller. If they had kept doing system 7 I would still be buying that to this day.

 

[EDG]

Just say you like it, and why if you care to, but please don't keep tossing invented statistics out about how RTT is the salvation of humanity. At least not without the 8 out of 10 cats polled "Word of God" backing you up

Didn't Matt say that Traveller had sold out of its first print run? How many copies is that, I wonder? I seem to recall Hunter Gordon saying that T20 had sold around 10,000 copies in all its lifetime, and I thought Matt said that their print runs were in that ballpark. If Traveller's outsold even a d20 version of the game then it's got to be doing pretty damn well (or the T20 one did pretty damn poorly for a d20 game...).

 

[-Daniel-]

I'm in.

The current version has already, I'm sure, outsold all previous edition core books...

Do we really need yet more hyperbole without facts?

Um, Yes we do. How else am I to get my laughs at work? :wink:

:lol:

Daniel

 

[captainjack23]

The internet's a poor sample of anything really - there's lots of gamers out there who don't care enough about a game to want to sign up for discussion boards about it.

well, I did provide actual non-internet data...in fact that was the bulk of my post, lame and limited as it was...why no thoughts on that ? You were the one opining the lack of evidence, after all. I'm not trying to be an ass here, but you seemed to think having something to base an opinion on was important, and then you just seem to blow it off ? I mean, I'm not gonna do all the heavy data lifting -you are the one making the statements about who buys and who doesn't.

So what do you base your ideas on, then ? I'd actually, non sarcastically, non-trollingly be interested to hear why you think what you do about the traveller audience...it could be important.

And what's with all the stuff about "old guard "anyway ? You know, it includes you too...I mean, you started two editions ago, and have writing credits in traveller, and a traveller website, and you're active on how many forums ? And no offense intended, but you are hardly an early twenty something burning-wheel-indy-gamer. I mean you bought MGT, right ? So did I, and apparently so have lots of old time traveller players... So who exactly is it that you feel are unimportant in the scheme of things of traveler sales ? Who is it that claimed they brought down GDW and why does that matter ?

 

[far-trader]

Didn't Matt say that Traveller had sold out of its first print run? How many copies is that, I wonder? I seem to recall Hunter Gordon saying that T20 had sold around 10,000 copies in all its lifetime, and I thought Matt said that their print runs were in that ballpark. If Traveller's outsold even a d20 version of the game then it's got to be doing pretty damn well (or the T20 one did pretty damn poorly for a d20 game...).

It wouldn't be bad at all, but without sales figures it's just a guess. I honestly don't recall Matt saying that (but might have missed it). Nor do I recall Hunter saying how many had been printed or sold (but that could be the memory going). I do recall the first print run of T20 selling out very quickly and seem to recall it being 5000.

Still, even that figure has a long way to go to RPG Gold (100,000 units) which CT did do for the core rules (Basic LBB1-3), High Guard supplement, and Mercenary supplement. Long before the reprints, pdfs, and CD which also seem to be selling well even after all this time*. Long before all this new fanlged internets Back when word of mouth was actually face-to-face after travelling (there's that word again ) for hundreds of miles (truly, for me anyway) on the trek to an actual brick and mortar game store. And competing on the shelves of those few and far between stores with that hard cover nicely bound glossy color full size thick tome piece of eye candy D&D, with that odd sized simple black cover saddle stapled thin book series.

It's a nice goal though, RPG Gold for Mongoose Traveller. Tell you what, the day it does go Gold I'll join the movement and call it simply Traveller 8) (heck, I'll even buy a copy if I still haven't by then :lol: )

* Basic (Classic) Traveller may be double Gold by now but I have no idea. And before you say it... yes that does not translate directly in individual players.

 

[EDG]

well, I did provide actual non-internet data...in fact that was the bulk of my post, lame and limited as it was...why no thoughts on that ? You were the one opining the lack of evidence, after all.

Because it's an anecdote, and doesn't really give us any real data? What happens in your neck of the woods (even if it is fully and accurately reported by all involved, which given the nature of this sort of thing I doubt) may be completely different to what happens in mine or anyone else's.

We need full on, targeted marketing surveys of the kind that WotC did for D20 to get a useful answer here for the question of who is buying what and why. Anecdotes (from anybody) unfortunately just won't cut it.

I mean, I'm not gonna do all the heavy data lifting -you are the one making the statements about who buys and who doesn't.

I'm not actually. Far-trader was the one that commented about how people were flinging around "facts" without evidence. And yet I've heard a lot of older fans of the game going on about how any new version needs them to buy it to become successful, which is a similarly baseless statement.

And what's with all the stuff about "old guard "anyway ? You know, it includes you too...I mean, you started two editions ago, and have writing credits in traveller, and a traveller website, and you're active on how many forums ? And no offense intended, but you are hardly an early twenty something burning-wheel-indy-gamer.

Too damn right. I tried Burning Wheel and found it to be... well, hands down the single most frustrating roleplaying experience I have ever had, and the worst designed game I'd ever seen. And I put a lot of effort into trying to make sense of it too. It was absolutely incompatible with me and how I and my group plays games.

And I'm really not "old guard". It's not the activity that matters, or how much one has written, or how many forums one frequents - it's more a matter of mentality really. I think that there are people who just stick to what they know and fear and complain about any kind of change, and I think there are people who embrace change and run with it and move forward all the time. It's basically Stasis vs Dynamism - the Static types are what I call "old guard", and I count myself among the Dynamic types (and there's people who don't give a damn either way too, of course ).

Also, I don't actually have a Traveller website anymore.

 

[Omega Man]

:shock:
For a thread concerning the dropping of all branding adjectives immediately prior to any instance of the word "Traveller" in the name of unity, we sure seem to be spending plenty of quality time speculating about the perceived value of the various demographic groups within our community and along with them the perceived value, through sales, of the various versions of Traveller of which the Mongoose version was niether the first nor will it be the last version thereof.

:?
Frankly, I'm not seeing the connection here between the case for "just Traveller, please" and the claims and speculations that some X version of Traveller sold more copies than the Y version or sold more quickly. Am I just that blind? Does it really matter to the Traveller name discussion what age demographic figures most prominently so far in Mongoose Traveller sales? If so, how?

:lol:
And despite my confusion, I find myself closely watching this thread! Maybe I'm just rubbernecking in the hopes of seeing some carnage. Who can say.

 

[EDG]

Eh, it meandered that way, threads do that . Though it may be a bit relevant since what I call the "old guard" seem to be somewhat more resistant to the idea of just calling it "Traveller" than everyone else. But it's up to them really - I just think it'd have to take something very catastrophic and totalyl unexpected to stop Mongoose's momentum with the game, so I don't share their cynicism about it.

 

[GypsyComet]

And what's with all the stuff about "old guard "anyway ? You know, it includes you too...I mean, you started two editions ago, and have writing credits in traveller, and a traveller website, and you're active on how many forums ? And no offense intended, but you are hardly an early twenty something burning-wheel-indy-gamer. I mean you bought MGT, right ? So did I, and apparently so have lots of old time traveller players... So who exactly is it that you feel are unimportant in the scheme of things of traveler sales ? Who is it that claimed they brought down GDW and why does that matter ?

I'll admit that's the first time I've seen that particular claim as anything other than sarcasm since Loren debunked the "TNE killed GDW" myth a decade ago. The short of it is that the First Gulf War and one or more enthusiastic book distributors are what killed GDW. GDW is now up there next to TSR in the cautionary tale about dealing with the big book distribution houses without reading the fine print. It's what killed both companies. Anyone who says TNE was "a failure" has no idea what they are talking about.

This "Old Guard" thing is a label for those members of three groups (the TML, GEnie's Traveller crowd, and HIWG) who reacted loudly, repeatedly, and (eventually) hatefully to one or more elements of TNE. The GEnie and HIWG groups were urbane enough to voice their displeasure directly to GDW early on, though a few became loud later. The *normally* model society of the CT/MT era TML became a screaming wildfire of anger for months, with acidly hateful posts continuing well into the TNE run. These attitudes led to the TML splitting along edition lines for about two years. That ended during the period when setting up mailing lists was starting to get simple enough that it was no longer limited to the cognicenti, and special interest lists started to spring up. The TNE crowd headed for specific lists en mass and never looked back. This was seen as "TNE going into exile" as far as the remaining TML crowd was concerned, but the reality was that those years of resentment and hostility had driven the players and contributors away from the TML. They didn't come back. The rise of the Web made sure of it over the next few years, but the attitude of the TML to T4 and GT, and later T20, didn't help.

The "Old Guard" are typified by the TML of the last 15 years, but that doesn't mean they are at the center of online Traveller anymore. They have their place in history. Many of the "not this again, please" argument topics within Traveller started on the TML in the late 80's.

And before you ask me about being bitter, let me emphasize that it has everything to do with the TML, and not with Traveller in general. I contributed to TNE and T20 (the contributor credit in T4 Starships is a typo that I'll explain later, if need be), and hold no strong edition preferences.

I like Mongoose's Traveller, but I will not accord it the honor of no edition acronym.

 

[captainjack23]

Because it's an anecdote, and doesn't really give us any real data? What happens in your neck of the woods (even if it is fully and accurately reported by all involved, which given the nature of this sort of thing I doubt) may be completely different to what happens in mine or anyone else's.

We need full on, targeted marketing surveys of the kind that WotC did for D20 to get a useful answer here for the question of who is buying what and why. Anecdotes (from anybody) unfortunately just won't cut it.

Technically, anecdotal evidence is unattributable data -not just data that can be questioned. What you are identifying is a local sample of convenience, which is only an issue if generalization is required; what I was saying was simply what I saw in front of me - and why I thought what I did.

So what I thought was a casual discussion was your request for a research proposal. My bad.
In which case, you are right. There is no evidence about sales...or customer base....so you're okay with your observations about who matters and who doesn't ,also being equally anecdotal ?

I'm still curious what you base your ideas about sales and marketing on - I based mine on a local observation, biased though it is .

I mean, I'm not gonna do all the heavy data lifting -you are the one making the statements about who buys and who doesn't.

I'm not actually. Far-trader was the one that commented about how people were flinging around "facts" without evidence. And yet I've heard a lot of older fans of the game going on about how any new version needs them to buy it to become successful, which is a similarly baseless statement.

Did I miss that part of this thread ? Where someone was going on about that ? Was it with the "we crushed GDW" part that seems to have been deleted ?

And I'm really not "old guard". It's not the activity that matters, or how much one has written, or how many forums one frequents - it's more a matter of mentality really. I think that there are people who just stick to what they know and fear and complain about any kind of change, and I think there are people who embrace change and run with it and move forward all the time. It's basically Stasis vs Dynamism - the Static types are what I call "old guard", and I count myself among the Dynamic types (and there's people who don't give a damn either way too, of course ).

Wait. All that says is that they have a cooler category if they agree with you...and like what you like. That surely isn't your whole point, is it ? Its based on some really wretched pop psychology, if it is. :wink:

 

[Deniable]

I'll continue to give Mongoose the credit they deserve and refer to it as 'Mongoose Traveller.' Dropping the Mongoose doesn't save much, is a likely source of confusion and, in my mind, seems like a slap in the face to them. They've built a good product, they should be credited for it. MGT deserves to stand on its own merits without cheap attempts to marginalize the other versions.

 

[AKAramis]

I, also, am "old guard" as it were.

To me, the OTU is not Traveller, but one setting for use with Traveller.

MoTrav will be just "Traveller" for me when there are no other editions for routine sale under the Traveller trademark. That means no CT reprints nor CD's, no MegaTraveller PDF's nor CD's, no TNE PDF's nor CD's, no T4 PDFs, no GT books nor PDFs, no Hero Traveller, and no T5.

Unless and until it's the only available ruleset under the trademark, it's not going to "unify" the fanbase. It will add to the overall fanbase, but it won't unify it.

 

[far-trader]

I'll continue to give Mongoose the credit they deserve and refer to it as 'Mongoose Traveller.' Dropping the Mongoose doesn't save much, is a likely source of confusion and, in my mind, seems like a slap in the face to them. They've built a good product, they should be credited for it. MGT deserves to stand on its own merits without cheap attempts to marginalize the other versions.

Well said. It bears the full quote.

 

[captainjack23]

I'll admit that's the first time I've seen that particular claim as anything other than sarcasm since Loren debunked the "TNE killed GDW" myth a decade ago. The short of it is that the First Gulf War and one or more enthusiastic book distributors are what killed GDW. GDW is now up there next to TSR in the cautionary tale about dealing with the big book distribution houses without reading the fine print. It's what killed both companies. Anyone who says TNE was "a failure" has no idea what they are talking about.

Yeah, the gulf war factbook, right ? Trying to duplicate an earlier and coincidental gaming book windfall ? I worked in sales for what is now alliance game distribution at the time, that is what I understood, also. Man, talk about making sales decisions based on faulty data, too.

So, anyway, EDG, given the above, and given the state of the internet and mailing lists back then, I suspect that anyone giving you that line is either unhinged or pulling your chain. Or both.

This "Old Guard" thing is a label for those members of three groups (the TML, GEnie's Traveller crowd, and HIWG) who reacted loudly, repeatedly, and (eventually) hatefully to one or more elements of TNE.
<snip>

Probably about two or three dozen regulars, if my memory serves me on the topic. Which is a very small brush to use to paint anyone who didn't start playing this year or isn't 100% comitted to tossing all previous editions and canon.

 

[captainjack23]

I'll continue to give Mongoose the credit they deserve and refer to it as 'Mongoose Traveller.' Dropping the Mongoose doesn't save much, is a likely source of confusion and, in my mind, seems like a slap in the face to them. They've built a good product, they should be credited for it. MGT deserves to stand on its own merits without cheap attempts to marginalize the other versions.

DING ! We have the winning argument. The whole thing bothered me for some reason, and that perfectly articulates why.

Thanks !

 

[EDG]

I'll continue to give Mongoose the credit they deserve and refer to it as 'Mongoose Traveller.' Dropping the Mongoose doesn't save much, is a likely source of confusion and, in my mind, seems like a slap in the face to them. They've built a good product, they should be credited for it. MGT deserves to stand on its own merits without cheap attempts to marginalize the other versions.

I think you've missed the point that some people would consider the Mongoose version to be so definitive that it doesn't need a qualifier, while misrepresenting the intent as a "cheap attempt to marginalize the other versions" (which it really isn't). That's hardly "a slap in the face" to them.

 

[captainjack23]

I'll continue to give Mongoose the credit they deserve and refer to it as 'Mongoose Traveller.' Dropping the Mongoose doesn't save much, is a likely source of confusion and, in my mind, seems like a slap in the face to them. They've built a good product, they should be credited for it. MGT deserves to stand on its own merits without cheap attempts to marginalize the other versions.

I think you've missed the point that some people would consider the Mongoose version to be so definitive that it doesn't need a qualifier, while misrepresenting the intent as a "cheap attempt to marginalize the other versions" (which it really isn't). That's hardly "a slap in the face" to them.

Ah. Well, if that is the the motivation...acknowledgment that the MGT rules are definitive....well... No. One may as well argue that they should only be referred to as "the GREAT, ULTIMATE AND FINAL Traveller Rules By Mongoose" whenever they are mentioned. They're very, very good. But so are other versions, which do not deserve marginalization. But I applaud your enthusiasm, and hope you don't lose it.

And it does bother me that it does deny them credit where credit is due.

My 2Cr....

 

[EDG]

So carry on calling it whatever you want then. Though I really don't get where you're getting this supposed "marginalization" from - I've not said anything against the other versions of the game here.

Me, I'm calling it Traveller, and I encourage others who embrace the Mongoose edition to call it that too. That's all there is to it, there's no ulterior motives and certainly no "marginalization".