Let's just call it "Traveller", shall we?

[Deniable]

I think you've missed the point that some people would consider the Mongoose version to be so definitive that it doesn't need a qualifier, while misrepresenting the intent as a "cheap attempt to marginalize the other versions" (which it really isn't). That's hardly "a slap in the face" to them.

If that were the case, we wouldn't have needed this thread, would we?

 

[EDG]

If that were the case, we wouldn't have needed this thread, would we?

Just because you infer something, that doesn't mean it was actually implied. The fact of the matter is that I am not "marginalizing" any version of the game by referring to the Mongoose edition as "Traveller" on its own. You believing otherwise doesn't change that fact.

Like I said, if it offends you so much, carry on calling it whatever you like - I'm sure not forcing anyone to change their mind about it.

 

[captainjack23]

I think you've missed the point that some people would consider the Mongoose version to be so definitive that it doesn't need a qualifier, while misrepresenting the intent as a "cheap attempt to marginalize the other versions" (which it really isn't). That's hardly "a slap in the face" to them.

If that were the case, we wouldn't have needed this thread, would we?

Remember, that's your Static Mentality and Fear of Change that is keeping you from Embracing the Future..... Unlike the Dynamic Types who Embrace Mongoose and The Future...and are thus willing to stop using Mongoose to identify Mongoose's Rules.....:wink:

Oh, my. I can't go on. I know that's really, really, really petty of me, but honestly, this is getting a bit too much like a corporate motivational presentation..."Embracing the Dynamic Change-Positive Mindset: Rightsizing and You" kind of stuff.

Embracing the Future defined by omission of an adjective. Ooooookay.:lol:


Call it what you will, EDG. It sounded good before you started defending it.

Good night one and all. !

 

[Deniable]

Remember, that's your Static Mentality and Fear of Change that is keeping you from Embracing the Future..... Unlike the Dynamic Types who Embrace Mongoose and The Future...and are thus willing to stop using Mongoose to identify Mongoose's Rules.....:wink:

Damn, I should have had my board-room bingo card with me. I'm sure I'd have won by now.

Good night one and all. !

Good idea.

 

[rust]

Ah, well, sometimes life seems to be so much easier over here ... :lol:

In Germany "Mongoose Traveller" will be called just "Traveller", because
that is what is printed on the book's cover, the book is published by the
13 Mann Verlag (you have to look at the fine print to see that it originally
came from Mongoose), and it is the only German version available.

Moreover, the Mongoose Traveller books will doubtless become the one
and only "canon source" quite quickly, because the older sources are
more or less unavailable (or at least difficult to get), and because we
never had any serious "canon" debate over here in the first place (we
left that fun to the people who fought the "oWoD-nWoD-War").

 

[MongooseMatt]

I think you've missed the point that some people would consider the Mongoose version to be so definitive that it doesn't need a qualifier, while misrepresenting the intent as a "cheap attempt to marginalize the other versions" (which it really isn't). That's hardly "a slap in the face" to them.

For the most part, I agree with you on this.

However, the dropping of the prefix is something that we will have to earn, and it is very early days yet. Someone else mentioned that they would consider dropping it when no other versions of Traveller are commercially available, and that seems as good a benchmark as any.

Remember, we have a ten year plus plan for Traveller, and so there is plenty of time. . .

 

[Ishvar]

Should we call Mongoose Traveller, Traveller or shall we keep on calling it MT or MongTraveller ?

First of all, we should stop all these bickerings. I have always been amazed by the capacity of the Traveller community to divide itself about (often petty) things that are finally boiling down to preferences.

My first contact with Traveller was with the Traveller book, it was around 1983. Though this book was great, I only refereed a few traveller scenarios of my own in a ATU loosely inspired by the "project Farstar" article published in the JTAS 33 in 1988. MegaTraveller was already published and in my game library, I found it was a real gem though some aspects of the game had became over complicated and/or buggy, in my opinion of course. Starship combat and vehicle design were far too complex for me.

So the first and only scenarios I played were in an ATU with the CT rules using the MegaTraveller task resolution system. Why an alternate universe ? Because the Third Imperium is big, really big and that a lot of things have to be learnt about it. But as I was trying to catch up with the published material so far, other books were published and not only from GDW. Digest Group Publications books and magazine, for example, and all were adding details to an already rich universe. In the same time the rebellion seemed to get out of control from the designers because its consequences were becoming too huge to handle.

I had not finished to read all the background for MegaTraveller when Traveller the New Era came out. Although I was a fan of the Third Imperium, I was enthralled with this new setting, though the Star Vikings (and the new rules) were not my cup of tea. I discovered the violent hatred some had for the New Era many years later. Obviously, some people were unable to write that they didn't like TNE without flaming it. It looked like a debate about religion between a fervent believer and a non believer with neither participant having unquestionable truths to oppose to the other, the non believer (the one who likes TNE) being often considered as an agnostic or as an heretic (at best). Of course, the fervent believer proved to be unable to admit that all this was a matter of "faith" or preference.

Companies were still publishing books and magazines for MegaTraveller when TNE came out and I still had a lot of books to read... for MegaTraveller. Then T4 was published, and then GURPS Traveller, and then T20... I never managed to catch up with all the background material and I never managed to sit down and settle for a clear direction. The possibilities were so endless, the settings so numerous (Milieu 0, the Third Imperium, the Fifth Frontier War, the Rebellion, the GURPS ATU, the New Era...) and the rules so different. To sum up, I never managed to make my mind and thus never refereed a Traveller game.

After a long gap (during which I bought the CT reprints), I came back to TNE. Why ? Because I had finally found a generic game system that would allow me to referee in this universe without the burden of a painful conversion. But my players knew nothing about the OTU. So I decided it would be best to play some games in the Third Imperium so that they could better understand what the Traveller universe was. So I started again reading MegaTraveller books... and then I found Traveller 1248. And what if we played some games in the Third Imperium, some in the Rebellion Era, a few more in TNE and then an episodic campaign in the Traveller 1248 universe.

Meanwhile, Gateway sector was published by QLI and T5 was announced. Once again my head was looking through too many glasses at the same time and the universe was about to overwhelm me... once again.

Then I heard about Mongoose Publishing preparing a new edition of Traveller and moreover about a forthcoming Spinward Marches sourcebook. And this sourcebook would be written by mister MJD, author of this Traveller 1248 I liked so much...

Waiting for this new edition, I decided to read again all the background that could be found in the MegaTraveller box and the MegaTraveller Referee's Companion. After this, Mongoose Traveller would provide me with the common ground, the starting point I needed... at last!

So what is Traveller to me ? It is all that, all the things I have talked about in these rants. Perhaps I feel like GURPS Traveller is less a part of the Traveller Universe than the other settings... but all in all I don't think it is really important. Because I believe that, for each one of us, Traveller is actually the sum of all the various things each one of us like in all the published books each one of us own. Traveller means something different for each one of us.

So when I am thinking about Traveller, it encompasses all the various editions, all the settings, all the Traveller books I own... When I go to my local game store, I am looking for Traveller news not for Mongoose Traveller news... so MongTraveller is Traveller... as are CT, T4, TNE, Traveller 1248 and as T5 will be.

All this means that one can use the name he wants, the only thing that is important to me is that we understand each others. When I read MT, I know what we are talking about, when I read RTT I have no idea about what it can be (though I know that one of the "T" must mean Traveller). When someone writes Traveller, I can't help thinking about the whole stuff published since the LBBs.

And the real problem is here IMO, once again Traveller means something different for each player or each referee.

So should Mongoose Traveller be called Traveller? Honestly, I don't know. The first thing I know is that, whatever the name, I need to understand what you are talking about. The second thing I know is that we all love Traveller and that we should stop bickering at every opportunity.

My Traveller is not your Traveller... so what? One day or the other it will become your "MTU" and my "MTU" and THAT is the only thing that is meaningful... in my two cents of an opinion.

 

[Starwolf]

And I'm really not "old guard". It's not the activity that matters, or how much one has written, or how many forums one frequents - it's more a matter of mentality really. I think that there are people who just stick to what they know and fear and complain about any kind of change, and I think there are people who embrace change and run with it and move forward all the time. It's basically Stasis vs Dynamism - the Static types are what I call "old guard", and I count myself among the Dynamic types (and there's people who don't give a damn either way too, of course ).

Only speaking for myself, but I haven't bought the latest edition of Traveller as I find it too close to CT. I have been with Traveller since MT, and bought most of the Ct books through ebay, game stores and so on over the years.
I just don't want to shell out 30 something for books that cover essentially stuff I already got. And I can even convert older stuff to my prefered version of Traveller without too much hassle.

Most other editions of Traveller mostly brought new stuff, however, going by the planned titles, it seems that the area covered is mostly re-chewed.

Don't get me wrong, I am actually delighted to see Traveller still going strong, and will likely do so for the future.

 

[Allensh]

The Mongoose version of Traveller says "Traveller" on the front in a new, somewhat stylized version of the familiar logo.

It is the only currently published version of Traveller that is not either a conversion of the game to a different rules set or a reprint of an older edition. The reprints are still available in places but I have heard they are not still being produced and eventually they will be gone. The CD's are available but that is just scans of old products. Thus, Traveller (from Mongoose) is the only currently "living" version of the game.

Ergo, it is Traveller. Pure and simple. Nothing else out there can make this claim...and T5 isn't yet out there and I personally have no faith that it ever will be. Hence, "Mongoose Traveller" IS Traveller.

Allen

 

[EDG]

However, the dropping of the prefix is something that we will have to earn, and it is very early days yet.

As far as I'm concerned, you've earned it already...

Remember, we have a ten year plus plan for Traveller, and so there is plenty of time. . .

...and this is part of the reason why. Mongoose has the will and the means to keep supporting Traveller for a long time - you're a big company with a lot of resources. Given that everyone else's licenses will have long sunsetted by then - apart from SJG, but maybe they won't renew again - Mongoose will be pretty much the only Traveller publisher on the block (T5 really isn't going to be an issue, even if it does ever come out).

Mongoose has the only version of the game that new rules material is actually being produced for too (Avenger is still publishing too but since they're doing setting stuff rather than a new ruleset, I'm not counting them here).

The writing's on the wall, really. It all adds up, IMO, and is why (as Allen says) Mongoose is Traveller now.

 

[EDG]

Most other editions of Traveller mostly brought new stuff, however, going by the planned titles, it seems that the area covered is mostly re-chewed.

That is something I'm a bit concerned about here actually... I'd like to see some actual new material for Traveller (and the OTU setting), rather than rehashes of old books and subjects. But I do understand that Mongoose has to get the basic stuff out there first before everything else.

 

[MongooseMatt]

That is something I'm a bit concerned about here actually... I'd like to see some actual new material for Traveller (and the OTU setting), rather than rehashes of old books and subjects. But I do understand that Mongoose has to get the basic stuff out there first before everything else.

The difference is approach - you will see this with the new Mercenary and High Guard, which will be very different from those that have gone before, especially as the concept behind the book will be widened out to all careers, such as Psion and Agent.

As for the Alien Modules. . . well, they should just Wow you

There will be plenty of new material but, as EDG says, the basics have to be covered first. A good parallel is RuneQuest and Glorantha - we have had it running for a while now, and the material being created in recent books is quite spiffy!

 

[GamerDude]

Should we call Mongoose Traveller, Traveller or shall we keep on calling it MT or MongTraveller ?

First of all, we should stop all these bickerings. I have always been amazed by the capacity of the Traveller community to divide itself about (often petty) things that are finally boiling down to preferences.

Very well put, and I agree

My Traveller is not your Traveller... so what? One day or the other it will become your "MTU" and my "MTU" and THAT is the only thing that is meaningful... in my two cents of an opinion.

Again, Well put. No two campaigns, even set in the OTU using the same game system, running the exact same modules from the exact same publisher... they are NOT going to be the same campaigns. Different GM style, Different playing styles, different characters, etc.


What we play, in some for or another, is Traveller.

 

[Allensh]

I can understand why Mongoose is redoing a lot of the older stuff. Really, the stuff Mongoose is redoing is from the single most successful phase of Traveller's existence, and it only makes sense to make that material available again in a new form, and with improvements based on the 30+ years of changes in game design and experience that have come about since the original publication.

For example: the Spinward Marches book. I appreciated the minimalist approach to UWPs. A lot of that extraneous information that crept in to the UWP over the years never got used at all in my games. But, compared to the original Supplement 3, this was a great book! I loved the expanded information on the two worlds in each subsector that were provided as well as the overview of the Third Imperium and the campaign advice. This was a much better sourcebook, in my opinion. One would expect it would be: a lot of the stuff in there hadn't been made up when GDW published the original.

Yes, I would like to see new stuff in this time period as well - especially adventures. And I'm sure we will.

Allen

 

[-Daniel-]

I think you've missed the point that some people would consider the Mongoose version to be so definitive that it doesn't need a qualifier, while misrepresenting the intent as a "cheap attempt to marginalize the other versions" (which it really isn't). That's hardly "a slap in the face" to them.

For the most part, I agree with you on this.

However, the dropping of the prefix is something that we will have to earn, and it is very early days yet. Someone else mentioned that they would consider dropping it when no other versions of Traveller are commercially available, and that seems as good a benchmark as any.

Remember, we have a ten year plus plan for Traveller, and so there is plenty of time. . .

Well there you go, I will stick to Mongoose Traveller or MGT for now.

Daniel

 

[captainjack23]

I think you've missed the point that some people would consider the Mongoose version to be so definitive that it doesn't need a qualifier, while misrepresenting the intent as a "cheap attempt to marginalize the other versions" (which it really isn't). That's hardly "a slap in the face" to them.

For the most part, I agree with you on this.

However, the dropping of the prefix is something that we will have to earn, and it is very early days yet. Someone else mentioned that they would consider dropping it when no other versions of Traveller are commercially available, and that seems as good a benchmark as any.

Remember, we have a ten year plus plan for Traveller, and so there is plenty of time. . .

Matt,

Excellently said, and honestly, as I said originally, it did seem a good idea....Traveller is the current rules set, and when the current rules set happens to also be excellent, well, good all around; and the support is well deserved. Now, since you have chimed in, I do have a few more things to say.....bad luck for you.:wink:

It's a great idea to support a great set of rules; it's just that when it get all mixed up in stuff like "embracing the future" it goes in another, absurdist direction. The idea works fine on its own without any motivational claptrap; particularly the kind of polarizing stuff that simply boils down to "you suck because you think wrong, and I'm better because I think right ". I mean, does the traveller community, your audience now, need more of that treatment ?

Do you really agree that previous traveller customers, and I'm not just talking about online toads like myself, are to be ignored and generally unimportant ? Does anyone here think that Mongoose sells so many copies that tossing out any customers won't hurt ?

Everyone here is a member of the old guard, except those who just picked up traveller from Mongoose....when was the last published edition, after all ? I just get very, very tired and annoyed when we have this constant straw man of the "mean inflexible grognard" being waved about. Particularly in acommunity that should have a very good idea of what it is like to constantly be described by the actions of a few loons. JD Egbert anyone ? If there are three or four jerks who bully you, or act like idiots, the fact that they have similar hobbies to a much larger group of people doesn't equate the two. It may be easy to do, and satisfying, and safe, but in the final analysis, it is beating the wrong horse.



I mean, I'm honestly sorry if some here have had their feelings hurt by some old cantankerous jerk on the TML twenty years ago; but I'm tired of being equated with that mindset simply because I disagree on a point of contention; and I'm equally sick of hearing about who deserves to be considered and who doesn't. Yes, you need a new audience, and yes, the cantankerous dozen old online farts are not going to make or break the new effort even a tiny bit. But I have seen lots of effort and enthusiasm for MGT by past and original players of Traveller, and I cannot imagine that they are not helping to sell to the new audience; and I can't think that constant rancorous debates about and belittling pop-analysis of an ill defined group like "old guard" does any good for the game.

I'm old guard. I helped all through the playtest -at least Gar seems to think so; and I've gotten at least six copies sold to my gaming group, and helped do the same at the store I shop at. If people want to support Mongoose traveller, I suggest that is the way to do it rather than berating other people so as to increase one's personal street cred as a dashing young turk.

Hope this doesn't get me booted, but, honestly....does anyone here think Mongoose is selling a lifestyle ? A social movement ? Or just excellent games ?

Okay. Thanks for reading. Matt, my apologies if I am out of place here.


Edit: removed the over the top bits as they detracted from the main point; which is about waving strawmen to grab moral high ground. Oops.

 

[rust]

And yes, as a horse, I do take it personally. And before you think that's unreasonable and oversensitive of me, try substituting "Jew", "Catholic" ,"Yank", "Brit ", "Black" or "Mexican" for any of the perjorative uses of "Grognard", "Old Guard" or even "Static thinkers" tossed around here, and see if it seems as palatable.

Captain, I am "Old Guard", too, born in 1957 and playing Traveller since
1978.

And if someone complains about, or makes jokes about, the "Old Guard"
or "Grognards", I simply ignore it, unless it is absolutely obvious that he
means me.

From my point of view, "Old Guard" is neither a religion (like Jew) nor a
nationality (like Yank) nor an ethnic group (like Mexican), in fact it is not
even any kind of community or group in any meaningful sense.

It is, as you said, a strawman, and this strawman has nothing to do with
me (or you, for that matter). As one of our sayings goes, I will not wear
a shoe that does not fit, only to get hurt by doing so.

Just my thoughts on this ... :wink:

 

[captainjack23]

And yes, as a horse, I do take it personally. And before you think that's unreasonable and oversensitive of me, try substituting "Jew", "Catholic" ,"Yank", "Brit ", "Black" or "Mexican" for any of the perjorative uses of "Grognard", "Old Guard" or even "Static thinkers" tossed around here, and see if it seems as palatable.

Captain, I am "Old Guard", too, born in 1957 and playing Traveller since
1978.

And if someone complains about, or makes jokes about, the "Old Guard"
or "Grognards", I simply ignore it, unless it is absolutely obvious that he
means me.

From my point of view, "Old Guard" is neither a religion (like Jew) nor a
nationality (like Yank) nor an ethnic group (like Mexican), in fact it is not
even any kind of community or group in any meaningful sense.

It is, as you said, a strawman, and this strawman has nothing to do with
me (or you, for that matter). As one of our sayings goes, I will not wear
a shoe that does not fit, only to get hurt by doing so.

Just my thoughts on this ... :wink:

Rust,

Thanks for that; an excellent plan and point. I do sincerely think that gamers, and too, old guards, are a community, and it's hard to see that being swinged constantly - no doubt my IRL experience in some very "diversity negative" parts of this country make this a personal hot button issue; but I'll try to bow out as at this point my sense of humor and possibly proportion seems to have been disabled; I must admit, to no-ones surprise that my ability to constantly ignore issues like this is....not made by the best of cobblers :shock: (to continue your example) .

Regardless, I'll take the suggestion to heart. Besides, its taking vauble time away from a long polemic I want to write on Jump -2 trade routes... Now theres a shoe that fits.

 

[EDG]

Equating "grognard" or even "old guard" with a racial insult shows a serious lack of perspective I think - it's a freaking game, not anything that serious. Anyone who thinks that those are equivalent deserves all the ridicule they get.

I see nothing wrong with distinguishing between the people who don't like to move beyond the status quo, and the people who are willing to change and adapt who also exist here. Both types clearly exist in the Traveller community, and there are plenty in between the extremes. It's up to individuals how they see themselves in that continuum, but how they see themselves may well be different to how others see them - it's what they say and do that counts for that.

This whole thing has been wilfully mischaracterised by a couple of people here as a way to "marginalise" the other versions or as an "insult to Mongoose" or as "pop psychology". Fact is, it's nothing of the sort, and that mischaracterisation couldn't be further from the truth. It doesn't really matter what my motivations are for proposing this re-labelling, but I sure don't see any purpose in pouring such scorn or ridicule on the idea. Like I said, if anyone's that offended by this idea (and even the idea of someone being offended by it is ridiculous to me) then they don't have to adopt it, it's as simple as that - and I'm sure there are plenty of other threads here that they can go contribute something a lot more useful to instead of wasting their time here.

But I guess people see what they want to see. The smart ones will be able to pick out the truth from the misrepresentation though, and that's what matters.

 

[captainjack23]

Equating "grognard" or even "old guard" with a racial insult shows a serious lack of perspective I think - it's a freaking game, not anything that serious. Anyone who thinks that those are equivalent deserves all the ridicule they get.

I see nothing wrong with distinguishing between the people who don't like to move beyond the status quo, and the people who are willing to change and adapt who also exist here. Both types clearly exist in the Traveller community, and there are plenty in between the extremes. It's up to individuals how they see themselves in that continuum, but how they see themselves may well be different to how others see them - it's what they say and do that counts for that.

This whole thing has been wilfully mischaracterised by a couple of people here as a way to "marginalise" the other versions or as an "insult to Mongoose" or as "pop psychology". Fact is, it's nothing of the sort, and that mischaracterisation couldn't be further from the truth. It doesn't really matter what my motivations are for proposing this re-labelling, but I sure don't see any purpose in pouring such scorn or ridicule on the idea. Like I said, if anyone's that offended by this idea (and even the idea of someone being offended by it is ridiculous to me) then they don't have to adopt it, it's as simple as that - and I'm sure there are plenty of other threads here that they can go contribute something a lot more useful to instead of wasting their time here.

But I guess people see what they want to see. The smart ones will be able to pick out the truth from the misrepresentation though, and that's what matters.

Yeah, I deleted the stuff about perjoratives; it distracted from the point which was that an argument that constantly relies on strawmen and high school cliquishness, in addition to embracing willfully lousy science doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I would only point out that you're the one who started equating agreeing with your position to having a flexible mindset, embracing the future and supporting Mongoose, and that those who disagree with or even are slow to accept you point are deserving of being ignored.

And now, we have The Smart Ones who can see the truth.

- it's a freaking game, not anything that serious. Anyone who thinks that those are equivalent deserves all the ridicule they get.

Oh yeah. good thought that. Give it a try ?


Toodles !