Kzinti & Drones - Input Welcomed

[Da Boss]

Interesting - looking forward to seeing how the erratta finished up

 

[MongooseMatt]

Interesting - looking forward to seeing how the erratta finished up

I don't think there will be anything controversial in there. However, I have reversed myself on one entry in the FAQ after a number of convincing arguments were put to me

 

[Da Boss]

My main area of concern, as many will be aware was SFU only (unrelated to game play) changes being made without changing points cost - but we will see how thats played out.............

Are you going to do like GW and have the FAQ / errata as an evolving pdf download?

 

[Captain Jonah]

Interesting - looking forward to seeing how the erratta finished up

I don't think there will be anything controversial in there. However, I have reversed myself on one entry in the FAQ after a number of convincing arguments were put to me

We will make sure we have lots of convinving arguments ready for when we argue then :lol:

 

[MongooseMatt]

Are you going to do like GW and have the FAQ / errata as an evolving pdf download?

If we see a major problem, we'll fix it. We will also be approaching the FAQ and errata as primarily tournament tools - so, they will be official at tournaments and they will feature in reprints, etc. However, you will likely find for 90% of your home/club games, you can get on just fine without it.

So, sort of, yes

 

[sanguisaevum]

Apologies,

long post, to address multiple comments. (Thankyou for all the discusion by the way.)

I see Drones as the Shield Strippers for the Phaser's and Disruptors or Photon Torps

And all the fluff surroundung the Kzinti use of Drones Disagrees with you.

sanguisaevum. Having drones as their primary damage causing heavy weapon and being able to use those weapons effectively outside the weapons range of your opponents are two completely different things.

By their nature, however, as with all seeking weapons, they have damage potential that can be reduced by opponent actions. When fighting in medium-long range (18-24") I would expect the Kzintis to put more AD of drones out there than other weapons. However, by their nature, those AD can be reduced by opponent actions which may result in more damage being caused by the non-drone weapons. However, in doing this, the opponent is doing things which reduce their own effectiveness (special actions, using offensive phasers defensively, etc.). That is the nature of the Kzintis - they throw so many drones at you that you are forced to take measures to reduce them, which in turn makes the Kzintis as a whole more effective (they take less damage, set up better for next turn, etc.).

I completely and utterly agree, my concern is that a limit, when applied to larger ships, will NOT have this affect on them at all, and therfore will NOT fit with the Kzintis selling point of "Drones!"

I’m sorry you are not happy with the change to Drones but you seem to think that the Kzinti are now suddenly powerless. They are most definitely not.

Show me where, in any of my posts i say this? I have always, and still, maintain that my concern is that the Kzinti are loosing their defining trait. I am sure that, if the change is indeed balanced, then they will remain a valid force. But i was concerned that they WONT be the force that the Kzinti should be, they will be instead a force that uses drones as a support weapon and not a primary weapon. This has never been about POWER, it is about the fleets IDENTITY. I DONT want to play my Kzinti as second rate klingons, i want to play them as the drone chuckers they are made out to be. That said, see response to next quote.

You say that you want a fleet that does more Drones than your enemy can cope with. Well 3 ship groups are that already. Without the support of several other ships all doing IDF no ship smaller than a BCH or DN can cope with 12 Drones a turn (Fed cheddar aside) but we cannot balance Drone users against the fact that the Fed are too tough against Drones, its everyone else that needs to be given a chance.

As you have clearly played a LOT more games than me, then i shall take your word on what 12ad of drones can realistically achive. Hopefully, there will be no issue, and my concerns will have been for nothing. Again, i am concerned that the Kzinti are loosing there identiy, if what you say is accurate, then it seems i may have misplaced my concerns and that even with a control channel limit, the Kzinti can threaten with drones as primary weapons, everyone wins!

The Kzinti remain a capable and powerful fleet. They can fight and win against everyone except the Fed cheese brigade. But without changing the Drone Rules and re costing DWDs (you listening Matt ) all you would ever see anywhere would be Drone heavy Fed and Kzinti fleets. They would have conquered the universe because no one could stand against them.

Try a few games and see, they are not useless, they just need some tactics and a bit of effort to win, all that has been taken away from them is the ability to auto win on turn one against most enemy fleets without the enemy even responding. It makes for far more balanced battles, is that not the whole point of the game?

I never wanted to be able to run around and vapourise a ship per turn without recourse, I just want to be able to use drones the way the Kzinti are potrayed to do so. All bieng well, this change WILL balance their power, and still allow them to be the drone chuckers i see them as bieng. If thats the case, Everyones happy!

So we have some Kzinti and Fed DWD fleet players, both of whom lack the capacity to be bored with tacticless die rolling, and every other fleet is abandoned?

Seriously, re read my posts and show me where i said i would be abandoning them, show me where i complained they wouldnt be powerfull enough for me...

Ahh thats right... you cant

As explained above, my issue was with the "FEEL" of the fleet, and its identity. I want Kzinti to rely on drones to beat there opponents, but off course i want it to be balanced, no one wants "i win" buttons in a tactical wargame. I just want my chosen leet to play like it's fluff says it does.

I'm more and more in favour of the '3 ship limit' when it comes to drones. People are suggesting to the designers ways in which drone fleets are still quite viable without being the "I WIN" button they are right now. The cloaking device has limitations for similar reasons. A game with one or two superweapons which everyone uses because to do otherwise is suicide really does make for a boring game.

Tactics in a wargame, who'd have thought that would happen?

<sigh> again, this was never about "power" for me, it was about the fleets identity. I want people to see a Kzinti fleet and think... DAMN, i need to worry about drones without them bieng an i win button. If the change brings balance back, and keeps that drone theat for Kzinti, then great!

 

[tneva82]

Show me where, in any of my posts i say this? I have always, and still, maintain that my concern is that the Kzinti are loosing their defining trait. I am sure that, if the change is indeed balanced, then they will remain a valid force. But i was concerned that they WONT be the force that the Kzinti should be, they will be instead a force that uses drones as a support weapon and not a primary weapon. This has never been about POWER, it is about the fleets IDENTITY. I DONT want to play my Kzinti as second rate klingons, i want to play them as the drone chuckers they are made out to be. That said, see response to next quote.

Funny how people seem to be thinking amount of drone's in kzintis fleet is going to decrease. They are still on top rank of "maximum amount of drones" list. Sure orion salvage ship fleet is going to out-drone kzinti's but that was the case before.

 

[McKinstry]

show me where i complained they wouldnt be powerfull enough for me...

"MORE DRONES THAN YOU CAN COPE WITH!"

That kind of comes across as precisely that.

The Kzinti, post the 3 ship rule, are still by far the most drone heavy fleet but now there is at least a chance that the other fleets actually get to shoot back in a meaningful fashion. Their 'flavor' remains very much a drone heavy fleet but to win, they will have to get their hands dirty.

 

[McKinstry]

Funny how people seem to be thinking amount of drone's in kzintis fleet is going to decrease. They are still on top rank of "maximum amount of drones" list. Sure orion salvage ship fleet is going to out-drone kzinti's but that was the case before.

I thought the Orion Salvage fleet had the potential to be a monster but in looking closer, they lack an ADD trait and if they fill out the optional slots with drones, are going to be very hard pressed to survive in a heavy drone environment since their defensive fire is pretty limited. My money would be on a standard Kzinti fleet to mop the floor with an Orion maxed for drones about 9 out of 10 times.

 

[tneva82]

Funny how people seem to be thinking amount of drone's in kzintis fleet is going to decrease. They are still on top rank of "maximum amount of drones" list. Sure orion salvage ship fleet is going to out-drone kzinti's but that was the case before.

I thought the Orion Salvage fleet had the potential to be a monster but in looking closer, they lack an ADD trait and if they fill out the optional slots with drones, are going to be very hard pressed to survive in a heavy drone environment since their defensive fire is pretty limited. My money would be on a standard Kzinti fleet to mop the floor with an Orion maxed for drones about 9 out of 10 times.

Yeah well I didn't claim they would be GOOD Just that they can toss more drone's than anybody barring none here point to point

If you want maximum amount of drone's go for orion's. If you want to actually win something take either kzinzi or the fed DWD? spam list.

 

[McKinstry]

If the Fed drones get errataed back to normal (rolling a '1' is a permanent loss like everyone else) then even the DWD suddenly looks a lot more tolerable as its' offensive power versus a drone wielding fleet drops to near zero absent a big advantage in ship numbers. Toning down the Feds 'racks o' unlimited droneness' really does leave the Kzinti as the only drone player of consequence among the existing fleets.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Sanguisaevum

When we read your posts we got the impression that you felt the Kzinti fleet was now reduced in power because of the change in Drone targeting.

We have already had one person abandon the Kzinti fleet because it had been neutered and comments such as MORE DRONES THAN YOU CAN HANDLE do rather clearly suggest that you feel that the Kzinti fleet should be about crushing people at a distance where they are unable to respond.

Your posts were clearly indicative of someone who was clearly upset by the changes and we read them as such.

The Kzinti were, are and shall remain the Primary Drone using race in the game. Every line Kzinti ship brings 4 Drones to the mat, Only Federation cheese fleets can match them for Drones and since the change to Federation combined Drone racks this is easy to neutralise.

In terms of what a ship can handle, the math is easy. Roughly 5 out of every 6 Phasers across the best arc with stop a drone. Every two tractors will stop a Drone, an ADD will stop 6 for every unit of ammo it has. Destroyer sized ships with 3 or 4 Phasers and two tractors can reasonably stop 4 Drones a turn. A cruiser with 6 Phasers and two or three tractors can stop 6 Drones and so on. An ADD one will stop 6 Drones so a cruiser with ADD1 should be able to stop ONE 12 Drone attack and then will be stopping 6 Drones if it uses all Phasers in arc defensively. Against a Kzinti fleet that means 6 stopped, 6 hit.

6 Drones doing an average of 3.5 per Drone is 21 Damage to a ship. Cruisers with between 24 and 28 shields on average so that’s most of the shield gone. Light cruises with shields around 20 will lose the entire shield and DD/FF size with 14-16 shields and 12-16 damage will lose the shield AND take up to half their damage.

All done at up to 36” and far beyond any return fire. The Kzinti are clearly not powerless and remain the Premier Drone race in the game.

You say we have misunderstood your comments, perhaps we have but you are not the first to post how strongly you feel against the changes. Since the changes do not remove a single Drone from the Kzinti fleet and are simply a much needed balance it is hard for us to see such complaints as anything other that what they seem to be, a player upset because his fleet now has to actually use tactics and has a chance of being beaten.

At the end of the day this is a game, it may be addictive fun but its still a game. We are mostly a happy bunch, more than willing to help or debate a subject. We don’t do flame wars and we don’t do raging emotional upsets. Please take it calmly, listen to what we are all saying here. Try a few games and see that under the three ship limit, with good tactics, the Kzinti remain a force to be reckoned with on the mat.

 

[MongooseMatt]

>>>Again, i am concerned that the Kzinti are loosing there identiy, if what you say is accurate, then it seems i may have misplaced my concerns and that even with a control channel limit, the Kzinti can threaten with drones as primary weapons, everyone wins!

Don't be too concerned, they are not losing their identity. Think of it as the Kzinti being able to bombard an entire fleet, rather than concentrating everything on just one ship.

 

[TJHairball]

At the end of the day this is a game, it may be addictive fun but its still a game. We are mostly a happy bunch, more than willing to help or debate a subject. We don’t do flame wars and we don’t do raging emotional upsets. Please take it calmly, listen to what we are all saying here. Try a few games and see that under the three ship limit, with good tactics, the Kzinti remain a force to be reckoned with on the mat.

I think it's also important to bear in mind that not all Kzinti ships are created equally. From what I've been able to tell, some are much better values for the points than others. :wink:

 

[sanguisaevum]

Sanguisaevum

When we read your posts we got the impression that you felt the Kzinti fleet was now reduced in power because of the change in Drone targeting.

Then pehaps i did not convey the nature of my concerns in the most correct manner. As stated MULTIPLE times now...

I am very much in favour of a balanced game!
I DON'T want to be able to bombard fleets with impunity!
I DO want tactics in my wargames!

Not ONCE have i stated, or even implied!, that my concerns were relating to the POWER scale of a Kzinti fleet, That was NOT my concern, at all. I think many here were reading into my posts with the view that i am just another guy complaining because the Kzinti can no longer rain death without being threatened.

Seriously, re-read my posts without that preconception. All i was EVER concerned about was that the Primary Drone users of the game were going to have to use drones in a SECONDARY role. Thats it!

Your posts were clearly indicative of someone who was clearly upset by the changes and we read them as such.

Yes, but you wrongly assumed that i was upset because i thought they would be less powerfull, where in fact, i stated multiple times that was not the case, and gave you my reason for concern... seriously... how many times have i said it outright in my posts? here it is a few more times

Identity!
Identity!
Identity!

<chuckle>

Since the changes do not remove a single Drone from the Kzinti fleet and are simply a much needed balance it is hard for us to see such complaints as anything other that what they seem to be, a player upset because his fleet now has to actually use tactics and has a chance of being beaten.

I bow to your greater knowledge of the mechanics, and trust that the change will indeed bring balance back without reducing the Kzinti to using Drones as secondary weapons like other races.

I would also ask that in future people should all stop automatically assuming that every complaint or objection is from a foolish player who just wants to win at all costs, crying because there ships "got nerfed".

Much of the appeal of ACTA to me (and probably others) is the backdrop for the rules... my concern was for that backdrop... all fluff and the lore surrounding one of my favourite races from SFU, not the rules themselves.

At the end of the day this is a game, it may be addictive fun but its still a game. We are mostly a happy bunch, more than willing to help or debate a subject. We don’t do flame wars and we don’t do raging emotional upsets. Please take it calmly, listen to what we are all saying here. Try a few games and see that under the three ship limit, with good tactics, the Kzinti remain a force to be reckoned with on the mat.

<Chuckle> Again, are you guys even reading what i write? I have allready taken on board your excellent assesment and have indicated that it looks like the change probably wont affect the Kzintis identity at all, and that my concern was misplaced.

Dont tar us all with the same brush folks,

I was concerned about Identity
You guys ASSUMED i was concerned about "owning people"

Problem solved

Now... when are you going to introduce MLRV pods?

MORE DRONES! (matt? )

 

[sanguisaevum]

At the end of the day this is a game, it may be addictive fun but its still a game. We are mostly a happy bunch, more than willing to help or debate a subject. We don’t do flame wars and we don’t do raging emotional upsets. Please take it calmly, listen to what we are all saying here. Try a few games and see that under the three ship limit, with good tactics, the Kzinti remain a force to be reckoned with on the mat.

I think it's also important to bear in mind that not all Kzinti ships are created equally. From what I've been able to tell, some are much better values for the points than others. :wink:

this is a good point... can anyone tell me why i would take a FF, when i can take a War destroyer for 30pts more? i cant figure it out....

 

[Da Boss]

scenario restrictions

not having another 30pts left over?

 

[sanguisaevum]

scenario restrictions

not having another 30pts left over?

<chuckle>. kinda what i thought... "because you have to"... is probably the only good reason then...

 

[andypalmer]

The more I think through it, the more I think that having drones rearm after firing at long range (either 18" or 24" - still TBD) is the way to go. Part of the balance issue with 36" is that the opposing ships not only can't shoot back, but are forced to use special actions turn after turn with no opportunity to break the cycle. By having a drone rearm for long range drone strikes, this breaks the cycle and allows the opposing ships to take special actions to better effect.

 

[tneva82]

I was concerned about Identity
You guys ASSUMED i was concerned about "owning people"

So how is the identity lost?

How much the change reduce drones in Kzinzi fleets?

Did I miss change where kzinzi ships suddenly have 3AD of drones rather than 4?

2AD?

Can't say I see any reduction in amount of drone's kzinti's are launching. Maybe you could point the blind me change that reduces amount of drone's kzintis will be firing?