Kzinti & Drones - Input Welcomed

[Captain Jonah]

It may be worth setting a range maybe 4 to 8 under which the channels rule does not apply.
They are launched over open sights the target is painted buy a laser the flight time is so low that they hit the target before other drones get close enough to interfere.

Well it adds complexity, it turns Drones into Plasma’s and it also significantly changes the Kzinti way of war. The Kzinti are the Horse archers of SF, engaging you from a distance with Disruptors and Drones. What people seem to be missing here is that by limiting the Drones to 3 ship salvos against a single target it’s not a huge nerf. It makes Drone fleets use tactics rather than just flying round and dumping on one ship within 3 feet. If your Drone heavy fleet is restricted and can no longer focus every Drone on one target you need to go after multiple targets. You need to plan your attacks, that ship has ADD1 and less Phaser’s, burn down the ADD this turn, take its shields next turn, then kill it with Disruptors. The Fed BCH has ADD3 forever; use a few Drones to make him waste his ADD which locks out his Drones then move on.
Drones have not become suddenly useless. Instead they have become a more thoughtful weapon, one requiring planning to use. Is this a bad thing? 12 AD of Drones can still kill an enemy ship; it just takes several turns and gives the poor target a chance to do something about it.

Jonah, are you still putting forward your idea about drones being able to be shot down by any ship past half range?
One thing I would put out there is this: reduce drone's damage from 1D6 each, to a fixed number, say 2 damage per drone. Drones have a fixed warhead (usually 12 damage); allowing a variable amount of damage never made any sense to me.

Drones would be far more damaging if they matched SFB/FC. They do more damage than a photon so would be multi hit 5 or 6. D6 gives a variable, one hit could be savage, one hit could be a near miss that barely touched the shields.

In terms of over half range. I’m happy to let that go in favour of the 3 ship limit. It served as a solution to the Drone heavy fleets but it also worked to remove Drones from low Drone fleets. With the 3 ship limit a low Drone fleet is still going to retain the nuisance factor of its Drones but again tactics must be used and some thought given to Drone attacks.

Over all I’m looking very favourably on this as a solution to All Drone heavy fleets (not just the Kzinti) while leaving Low Drone Fleets with a secondary weapon still.

Now we need to get Lumbering fixed

 

[Nomad]

Drones would be far more damaging if they matched SFB/FC

In those games, drones rarely actually *hit* anything. They serve to soak up enemy phaser fire and - crucially - influence the targets' manouvers, since ships can move nearly as fast as - or faster than - they do.

The dynamic in ACtA is obviously quite different.

Greg Smith pointed out that a 12 AD cap still makes drones dangerous to destroyer-sized ships; this may well be true but is of limited value when the smallest hostile vessel is a cruiser.

Would anyone take a 12-drone-AD per target*capped Kzinti fleet to a tournament? Serious question, not intended rhetorically.

*Edited to clarify for tneva.

 

[Da Boss]

Drones would be far more damaging if they matched SFB/FC

In those games, drones rarely actually *hit* anything. They serve to soak up enemy phaser fire and - crucially - influence the targets' manouvers, since ships can move nearly as fast as - or faster than - they do.

The dynamic in ACtA is obviously quite different.

Greg Smith pointed out that a 12 AD cap still makes drones dangerous to destroyer-sized ships; this may well be true but is of limited value when the smallest hostile vessel is a cruiser.

Would anyone take a 12-drone-AD capped Kzinti fleet to a tournament? Serious question, not intended rhetorically.

Interesting as not so long ago it was why would anyone take anything other than a Kzinit(or other drone heavy fleet) to a tournament.

Also the 12AD of drones is not their only weapon - they have both phasers and disruptors, The war destroyer is especially potent in this regard - 5 phaser 1's and 2 disruptors - as good as the Klingon D6 which has crappy phaser 2's............
The Fast Cruiser gets an extra Phaser 1 (or and two of them are turret mounted!) to the FD7 etc.

 

[tneva82]

Would anyone take a 12-drone-AD capped Kzinti fleet to a tournament? Serious question, not intended rhetorically.

Well. Nobody has proposed of limiting Kzinti to 12-drone AD...

 

[archon96]

because playing for fun is a bit different then tournament play. Some people will gouge through the rules looking for flaws find them and only play that. After a few tournaments without a change all you will see is huge drone chucking kzinti fleets and others like gorn and romulans will never be seen.

 

[McKinstry]

Drones would be far more damaging if they matched SFB/FC

In those games, drones rarely actually *hit* anything. They serve to soak up enemy phaser fire and - crucially - influence the targets' manouvers, since ships can move nearly as fast as - or faster than - they do.

The dynamic in ACtA is obviously quite different.

Greg Smith pointed out that a 12 AD cap still makes drones dangerous to destroyer-sized ships; this may well be true but is of limited value when the smallest hostile vessel is a cruiser.

Would anyone take a 12-drone-AD capped Kzinti fleet to a tournament? Serious question, not intended rhetorically.

They aren't capped at 12 since the bigger ships can throw 18 but that isn't the key issue. Merely limiting them to 3 ship drone groups cuts down the 'cloud o frigates/DWD's ' corruption without nerfing the fleet and restores drones to their rightful place in the weapon hierarchy, a secondary
weapon used to alter your opponents behavior, finish off the wounded, and support your main weapons, the phasers and disruptors.

As to tournaments, I would still expect the Kzinti to be well represented since the change simply makes them competitive and a whole lot more fun to play. They stil have plenty of firepower, good ships and are fairly agile. Absent the Fed DWD'S, no fleet still comes close to the across the board throw weight of a Kzinti fleet except now they actually have to get to disruptors/phaser range to kill things.

I'll actually buy a Kzinti fleet now as with the change, they look a lot more interesting.

 

[tneva82]

Absent the Fed DWD'S, no fleet still comes close to the across the board throw weight of a Kzinti fleet except now they actually have to get to disruptors/phaser range to kill things.

Orion's with their 150 pts 6 drone ships? 6 of those in 1000 pts + something else. 36 drone's per round split into 2 waves of 18 under proposed rules.

That's most cost effective drone chucker I think. Only problem being that on 1000 pts fleet leaves annoyingly gap of 100 pts so feds can bring 9 of their buggers to toss 36 drones of their own(though under proposed rule can only concentrate 12 vs one target).

 

[archon96]

honestly the new 3 limit makes alot of sense not just in frequency issues but what is the chance of drone from a whole fleet banging into each other or pre-detonating do to proximity of a destroyed drone. Something with that much bang probably makes at least a moderate explosion when shot down.

 

[tneva82]

honestly the new 3 limit makes alot of sense not just in frequency issues but what is the chance of drone from a whole fleet banging into each other or pre-detonating do to proximity of a destroyed drone. Something with that much bang probably makes at least a moderate explosion when shot down.

2nd reason is valid but first one is pretty funny in space game. Especially when it's supposedly fight in warp speed. Scale of distances is so big that there's plenty of room and by the time they get close enough they actually might hit each other any explosion is going to dent the target too

 

[archon96]

same concept applies in today's military, you'd think with such a huge open sky that aircraft wouldn't have to worry about such things as being struck by an artillery round flying through the air. But we still plan for the possibility of such things by creating coordination procedures. all i know is i'd hate to be in a helicopter and have a 155 round go flying past. Big sky little bullet shit does happen and it usually happens when you don't want it to.

 

[Finlos]

Clearly we need to get games in to see if mass drone fleets are, in fact, overpowered. We need to put maxed drone fleets against other fleets to see if it is, in fact, as bad as it's made out to be. Romulan and Gorn fleets have been noted as having weak defenses against drone fleets so those would be ideal opponents. There are a few points I'm interested in: A) Since it's a fixed map, can the drone fleet indeed be cornered? B) How long does it typically take? C) This is the big one, is there enough of the enemy fleet left to matter if / when the drone fleet is cornered?

One note here folks: DON'T throw games just to prove your point. That would be counter-productive and doesn't help anything. Not accusing anyone, just want accurate data.

 

[tneva82]

same concept applies in today's military, you'd think with such a huge open sky that aircraft wouldn't have to worry about such things as being struck by an artillery round flying through the air. But we still plan for the possibility of such things by creating coordination procedures. all i know is i'd hate to be in a helicopter and have a 155 round go flying past. Big sky little bullet **** does happen and it usually happens when you don't want it to.

In space we are talking about 6-7 digit distanced...Minimum. Scale is "slightly" different.

 

[archon96]

yes space is small but at some point all those drones narrow down to a specific destination. if 10 ships fire 6 drones each and there gunners all fire at the same target is there still a chance at the point of impact that they have an effect on each other. Either way it doesnt matter if im facing a mass of drone chuckers under the current rule ill just bring a fleet that mirrors his hide behind terrain and wait and see who gets bored first.

 

[tneva82]

yes space is small but at some point all those drones narrow down to a specific destination. if 10 ships fire 6 drones each and there gunners all fire at the same target is there still a chance at the point of impact that they have an effect on each other. Either way it doesnt matter if im facing a mass of drone chuckers under the current rule ill just bring a fleet that mirrors his hide behind terrain and wait and see who gets bored first.

How big explosions you think drones cause! Seeing they move faster than light spacing impacts 1sec betweeen means like 1000000km + distance. Pretty big expllosions...

 

[Nissei]

I like the three ship limit. It is curious that no one has proposed (unless I missed it which is quite possible) that drones have a similar ammo limit like the anti-drone trait. For every AD of drone fired, roll a die. On a 1, the ship loses one AD of drones. May restore 1 AD with a reload special action.

 

[TJHairball]

Drone 1 isn't useless. Yes it cannot be combined into huge Drone waves. But that Drone is a chance to empty an ADD, its an enemy phaser used on it not you, its another D6 damage with Devestating to throw at an enemy that has shields down and just used its last Phaser to shoot someone. In short Drone 1 is a secondary weapon and has secondary effects. A Fed CA fights with Photons and Phasers, the Done is very much a "Oh and throw in the Drone as well" weapon.

What is this "Fed CA" you speak of? I cannot recall having seen it on the field of battle!

The cruisers the Federation uses are only fast cruisers, light cruisers, and battlecruisers, right? :lol:

 

[Captain Jonah]

Drone 1 isn't useless. Yes it cannot be combined into huge Drone waves. But that Drone is a chance to empty an ADD, its an enemy phaser used on it not you, its another D6 damage with Devestating to throw at an enemy that has shields down and just used its last Phaser to shoot someone. In short Drone 1 is a secondary weapon and has secondary effects. A Fed CA fights with Photons and Phasers, the Done is very much a "Oh and throw in the Drone as well" weapon.

What is this "Fed CA" you speak of? I cannot recall having seen it on the field of battle!

The cruisers the Federation uses are only fast cruisers, light cruisers, and battlecruisers, right? :lol:

It’s a very old design, dating from the early days of the Federation, now retired as being expensive and of limited effectiveness. Often found Guarding the more valuable capital worlds of the member races. Oh and there is one in earth Orbit, it’s a museum now.

Re Drones blowing themselves up. Unlikely.

I would have thought that a more likely explanation would be EW. While the rules don't cover EW aside from the limited scout rules the ships themselves are going to be fighting constant EW battles with each other at a level below that represented in the game.

Squadron Data nets are small enough and tight enough to be immune to EW, larger Fleet nets are subject to jamming, ECCM and disruption. This disruption interferes with the control of Drones from too many ships, the fleet is unable to get a Time On Target strike with all of its Drones when it is losing control all the time, Drones which suffer too many signal loses are unable to continue and fly off into space.

The squadron nets are able to remain connected even with jamming and EW allowing them to guide in the Drone strikes.

Just an idea. :lol:

 

[McKinstry]

Drone 1 isn't useless. Yes it cannot be combined into huge Drone waves. But that Drone is a chance to empty an ADD, its an enemy phaser used on it not you, its another D6 damage with Devestating to throw at an enemy that has shields down and just used its last Phaser to shoot someone. In short Drone 1 is a secondary weapon and has secondary effects. A Fed CA fights with Photons and Phasers, the Done is very much a "Oh and throw in the Drone as well" weapon.

What is this "Fed CA" you speak of? I cannot recall having seen it on the field of battle!

The cruisers the Federation uses are only fast cruisers, light cruisers, and battlecruisers, right? :lol:

Light cruisers? As in the mythical OCL and NCL with one, that is just one, lousy drone/ADD? I have heard of these things but never seen one in a game. I have seen Strike Cruisers and NCA's, both with two drones/ADD as the minimum but never these light cruisers you speak of. :?:

Maybe, with the three ship launch limit you may see them against Klingons and the plasma types but they are still unlikely verus Kzinti or Orions.

 

[andypalmer]

The problem with Drones, and this isn’t just theory crafting as both the Mongoose chaps and the ADB team have been playing games to find a solution to the problem, is that they went from a secondary weapon to being THE weapon. The Kzinti having 4 Drones per ship reduced Disruptors to secondary weapons that could be used but were not necessary. Having a system where your fleet HEAVY weapons are not needed in a fight is clearly wrong.

Sorry to disappoint you but, as someone with over 30 years of experience in ADBs SFU, I can tell you that...
1. Drones are heavy weapons
2. Drones are the primary heavy weapon of the Kzintis

On most Kzinti ships, disruptors are the secondary weapon and in SFB and FC often go unarmed to allow more power for things like speed and tractor beams.

Any change that relegates Kzinti drones to a secondary weapon system is not keeping within the spirit of the universe.

 

[Sgt_G]

The limit needs to be four, not three, ships launching drones at a single target because of the Fed BCG, unless the rules for that ship are revisitied. As it stands now, the BCG has 4AD of drones, which converts to Anti-Drone 4, and it has to run out of anti-drone ammo for ALL four racks to run it dry, otherwise it resets back to Anti-Drone 4 the next turn. If there is a three-ship limit allowed to fire at a BCG, it can -NEVER- totally run out of ammo in a single turn. If the limit is four ships firing, then there is a (slim) chance that the BCG could roll a "1" defending against all four waves of drones and run dry.