Killing in Glorantha and Pavis

[taxboy]

I am relatively new to Glorantha but am running a campaign set in Pavis.

WE have two new players in the group who were attacked in their home by one of two guests. The defended themselve and killed the more agressive one but one of the players Befuddled the non-attacking, sitting down NPC then slit his throat.

It made myself and the other three players very uncomfortable - it seemed wrong and against my take on the feeling of Glorantha - in that there are consequences for unjustified killing and the world is constructed to not be a D & D type kill fest.

In fact, the murder has caused a feeling of moral outrage (both in and out of character).

Are we being too sensitive??

 

[Dan True]

I am relatively new to Glorantha but am running a campaign set in Pavis.

WE have two new players in the group who were attacked in their home by one of two guests. The defended themselve and killed the more agressive one but one of the players Befuddled the non-attacking, sitting down NPC then slit his throat.

It made myself and the other three players very uncomfortable - it seemed wrong and against my take on the feeling of Glorantha - in that there are consequences for unjustified killing and the world is constructed to not be a D & D type kill fest.

In fact, the murder has caused a feeling of moral outrage (both in and out of character).

Are we being too sensitive??

In-game? No, not at all. It is perfectly acceptabel for characters to be outraged at other characters.

Off-game. Well, it's a game - if one of the players want to play a guy who is a coldblooded killer, then let him. Don't be real-life outraged by it - perhaps the player simply did not understand the style of the game, or he deliberately wanted a character not fitting well into society... or he had a bad day.

Instead, make sure he in-game feels a consequence... Some of the other players may talk, someone may have seen the deed etc. Use it as a means of driving the story forward (seeking dememption or becoming the next villain perhaps?).

- Dan

Edit: Sorry, that came out wrong. I do by no means mean that you should simply sit back and let him ruin the style of game you're intending. My point was, try to work with it if you can - but ultimately, it's your story.

 

[Richard]

In the end it's your game. However sociopathic characters are likely to end up ruining games. The reasons for this are pretty obvious; you can't trust them, they're going to land their companions in very hot water sooner or later and they are likely to make a lot of enemies quickly. Also it really isn't a lot of fun to role play.

Of course if you are running a very violent setting (Crusades, Vikings, Rome etc) there are going to be circumstances where bloodthirsty killings were the done thing. Even though there were social constraints, which may be at odds with accepted modern mores, on this sort of behaviour. In Second Age Pavis this certainly isn't the case though. Depending on character background their may be some sort of cultural mitigation.

An 'out of game' solution is to visit the same fate on the offender but this is extremely partial and can further spoil the ethos of your game. Probably the best thing to do is to role play it. Are the other characters really going to stay around this psycho? They could simply abandon them or turn them in and a new character is needed for the player.

I had a similar experience with an immature 'kill 'em all' player in past games. His characters quickly found themselves ostracised and (Apart from brief cameos in Paranoia!) he drifted out of the games.

 

[Exubae]

It may be uncomfortable but it might be a good experience to let Mr Psycho live with his actions.
It might be good to get the city guards looking for the missing/murdered guest... house to house searches around the players house to build up a bit of tension. Pavis is a hot place and bodies aren't going to stay fresh long and the smell will draw the attention of neighbours. They need to either fall in with Mr Psycho and dispose of the bodies or turn him in to escape the long arm of the city guard.
If the players stand by Mr Psycho then they'll end up be hung with same rope ... a slit throat can't be viewed as self defense.
Chances are that MR P will a make a prompt attempt to flee the city when he realizes the end result of his actions, you can then get him a fresh character and possibly turn the old character into a true villain, have him join some Gagarthi bandit/scum or similarly unpleasant group of unwashed cut-throats.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Glorantha is a gritty and brutal world. Life is cheap, but resurrection is expensive. Poison is not uncommon, and is not regarded as a henous crime, blade venom was was fairly commonplace back in the old RQ2 days, and is referred to in the Griselda stories in a matter-of-fact way. If you can find the Griselda stories, they're an excellent introduction to the Gloranthan adventurer's way of life.
http://www.griselda.org.uk/main.html

 

[Vortigern]

I'd really want more information before judging.

The more bellicose character who killed the 'non-offensive' NPC must have had 'some' reason? I would want to know what it was. If it really was as simple and avaricious as 'I wanted his stuff!' or something of the like... then I would want to discuss theme and setting with them in order to move their perceptions closer to what the game was shooting for. Somehow attempting to 'punish' an action that you don't favor OOCly I feel is poor form on the part of the GM, unless you are talking about OOC cheating or the like. But here we are discussing a valid IC action, that people don't favor OOCly... and that I tend to be on the side of just favoring the IC flow of events.

I suppose what is most at center for me is the concern that a criminal or mercenary with a profit motive, or a desire to 'manage risk', may have had a perfectly valid reason for deciding that it was in either their personal or indeed the communal interest of the group to kill that NPC.

Perhaps for profit.

Perhaps to keep there from being an inconvenient NPC witness to the killing of the other NPC.

Perhaps because even though he didn't participate in the fight, he believed he was allied with the attacker, and therefore 'was' in fact an enemy. And he just had no compunctions about how to handle said enemy.

Or perhaps he really was a just 'How many exp do I get for the barmaid?' type of guy. I really don't feel like there is enough information to judge.

 

[DamonJynx]

My question would be; What's the murderers alignment? Is he CG,CN, CE? oops, wrong game system. :lol:

Seriously though, if you haven't already done so make the offending player aware that cold-blooded murder has consequences and deal with it (the situation) in-game as the OP have mentioned.

If the same thing happened in my campaign, the murdered guy would have been sacrificed to Chardros or Hionhurn after being tortured. So think yourself fortunate.

Out of game, I think you blokes are taking it a bit too seriously if it affects you so. It's a game, treat it as such and deal with this stuff in-game.

As I like to say to all the crying reality TV wannabe's, harden the f up! On the positive, it's a great game when it creates that sort of reaction!

 

[Vile]

I'm not sure how Glorantha is "meant" to be played, but we have always treated it as a more brutal and less civilised setting than, e.g., a pseudo-medieval fantasy world. Part of this stems from some of the relatively primitive societies, some from the fact that gods are taken much more seriously by the average person and can direct their actions in ways not normally acceptable. Some is down to the fact that we deliberately preferred to portray the world in a semi-horror way rather than as pure swords & sandals, probably influenced by our CoC games. So, yeah, there were plenty of times when characters killed helpless prisoners.

As for out-of-game, c'mon - it's a game, even the angry moms haven't been coming down on RPGs since the 80s! :lol:

 

[PhilHibbs]

Seriously though, if you haven't already done so make the offending player aware that cold-blooded murder has consequences and deal with it (the situation) in-game as the OP have mentioned.

It wasn't cold-blooded, his friend had attacked them in their own home. They were under attack. The guy could have been waiting for his moment to strike. I don't think people understand nowadays how brutal the world used to be - how brutal it still is in places like Mexico and Somalia. Really, I don't see anything wrong.

I'm not sure how Glorantha is "meant" to be played, but we have always treated it as a more brutal and less civilised setting than, e.g., a pseudo-medieval fantasy world.

If you and I were friends and were guests in any pseudo-medieval fantasy world, and you attacked our hosts, I would be in mortal fear and would consider myself extremely fortunate to escape with my life.

 

[taxboy]

Some interesting comments - perhaps it is simply a divergence in the 4 of us outragees and the two NPC killers 's world views or how Glorantha world operates.

They said they killed the sitting NPC simply as a pre caution, from our point of view it just seemd wrong - the original PCs just would not do that and it came as a shock.

Totally agree that Glorantha can be a harsh, dangerous, brutal world but my take on Pavis is that it is a more modern liberal oasis...thanks , Man Rune!

 

[Vagni]

Totally agree that Glorantha can be a harsh, dangerous, brutal world but my take on Pavis is that it is a more modern liberal oasis...thanks , Man Rune!

I agree! Pavis is a liberal and tolerant place...on the surface... but that means those who have strong feelings on racial, social or political items in the city are sometimes more likely to be 'extremists'. Also all those 'friendly' cults and guilds co-operating are still going to have their own hidden agendas somewhere...

I would say that the PC's should be encouraged to play their characters as they feel they would react, it's ultimately more fun to play something you are not. The consequences of their actions, well that's something you can roll out as a GM... maybe tug their heart strings with a beautiful young sister who, by unfortunate coincidence, tries to hire the PC's to find her missing brother... a back story of debt, poverty and oppression follows... what do they tell her when they discover it was them who killed him? Or maybe he was the lover of some powerful priestess (or priest for that matter...)

One of the best PC's I ever played was an illuminate chaos tainted human from Ralzarkarks Humakti Sword Troop who was sent to 'spy' on Hazard Fort... sometimes he 'did' things that made me cringe, even though it was just a game. When he finally gained an allied spirit in his sword it turned out to be one that fanatically hated undead and was responsible for getting him in trouble more than a few times...

"Attack the mummy now!"
"hang on, lets just check for traps first, these old tombs are..."
"Attack him!!"
"Look, he's been here over 150 years, a couple of minutes wont hurt..."
"Dispel Undead!!"
>sigh< "I guess I'm calling at the temple again soon then..."

But the fun was playing him, and his allied spirit, that way.


EDIT: Interestingly I never thought of this character as a cold blooded killer, especially given his illuminate nature. He was a Humakti (a bit twisted and fanatical perhaps) and death was common place to him. The bottom line was that if you drew a sword on a heavily armed and armoured Humakti then your fate was pretty much sealed...

 

[soltakss]

I am relatively new to Glorantha but am running a campaign set in Pavis.

WE have two new players in the group who were attacked in their home by one of two guests. The defended themselve and killed the more agressive one but one of the players Befuddled the non-attacking, sitting down NPC then slit his throat.

It made myself and the other three players very uncomfortable - it seemed wrong and against my take on the feeling of Glorantha - in that there are consequences for unjustified killing and the world is constructed to not be a D & D type kill fest.

In fact, the murder has caused a feeling of moral outrage (both in and out of character).

Are we being too sensitive??

From a gameplay point of view, killing the inactive NPC might have been over the top, but it all depends on the situation.

From a Gloranthan point of view, killing a guest, no matter what the provocation, can be cultrually taboo. Orlanthi, for example, have very strict restrictions on what a host can do to guests and killing one is against all their laws. Pavis cultists and nomads have very different views on hospitality, as do Godlearners. So, again, it depends on the situation.

No matter the moral feelings, there are simple consequences of such an act.
1. The dead NPCs might have friends or kin who might take revenge
2. The law might take a dim view, especially if the dead NPCs are citizens of Pavis/Jrustela and the PCs aren't
3. The PCs might get a reputation for being untrustworthy murderers, even if a court finds them innocent
4. The PCs' cults might take a dim view of what has happened, which might affect their cult advancement

 

[DamonJynx]

It wasn't cold-blooded, his friend had attacked them in their own home.

The "victim" had been neutralised. IMO if you slit someones throat once they have been rendered helpless that's cold-blooded murder.

WE have two new players in the group who were attacked in their home by one of two guests.

Where in the original post does it mention the two guest were allies or friends or even knew each other? You're making an assumption based on incomplete information. Though I grant it's a reasonable assumption to make.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Where in the original post does it mention the two guest were allies or friends or even knew each other? You're making an assumption based on incomplete information. Though I grant it's a reasonable assumption to make.

Sorry m'lud. I'll try to stick to the evidence presented.

 

[dryn]

As a player in this game, thanks for the different points of views guys.

Just to give you guys a clearer idea of what was going on: everyone involved was a dara happarian (not sure what the plural is there). One of the visitors wanted to fight with my character over a matter of insult. Since it was rather petty I had dismissed him and him being of low temper drew his blade and attacked. Combat ensued. His companion was taken aback by all this and didn't react at all in the brief melee before he was befuddled and was coup de grace.

 

[ajs]

As a player in this game, thanks for the different points of views guys.

Just to give you guys a clearer idea of what was going on: everyone involved was a dara happarian (not sure what the plural is there). One of the visitors wanted to fight with my character over a matter of insult. Since it was rather petty I had dismissed him and him being of low temper drew his blade and attacked. Combat ensued. His companion was taken aback by all this and didn't react at all in the brief melee before he was befuddled and was coup de grace.

On the inforamtion available, it sounds like the first should have been a one to one fight but the party ganged up. Not sure how the culture of Dara Happa would view this action
The second sounds like murder, plain simple murder

 

[PhilHibbs]

Combat ensued. His companion was taken aback by all this and didn't react at all in the brief melee before he was befuddled and was coup de grace.

Sounds like this companion was in the wrong place at the wrong time, which is just his tough luck. Of course, if he has (sorry, "had") powerful friends then they might take some convincing...

The second sounds like murder, plain simple murder

Better to murder than to be murdered. The guy made a poor choice of company. If you want to live, don't hang around with dangerous idiots.

Not sure how the culture of Dara Happa would view this action

If the dead guys weren't Dara Happan nobility, then they were scum and have no significant place in the celestial order.

 

[tarkhan bey]

I don't know anything much about Pavis, but it sure sounds like the laws of hospitality don't apply. :evil:

 

[PhilHibbs]

I don't know anything much about Pavis, but it sure sounds like the laws of hospitality don't apply. :evil:

The laws of hospitality are usually referred to in an Orlanthi context, but that doesn't mean to say that other cultures don't have some similar principles. Pavis is not an Orlanthi city, although there is a strong presence there. If the characters are Dara Happans, which is another foreign culture that has a presence there, and the encounter took place in a Dara Happan house, then presumably their cultural norms would apply. Dara Happa is a strict male-dominated Sun God culture where gender and social status is paramount so it depends on who the PCs and NPCs are.

Second Age Pavis has "city harmony" imposed by the city's mythical connection to the Man Rune. I seem to remember some mechanic that required a Persistence roll to engage in any violent action but I can't find it.

 

[Vortigern]

The initial fight would only have been an honorable duel if it was accepted and undergone in the normal custom for duels. A guest whipping out a weapon and going after one of the hosts does not qualify.

If the two guests were were affiliated, then most versions of hospitality custom would have considered both of their guest-rights voided thereby.

If the second guest did not approve, and was not complicit, most versions of hospitality put the guest under an obligation to defend their host from attack. I'm not sure about Dara Happan culture as I'm not familiar with Glorantha, yet, usually I would say standing by and not doing anything while someone else is attacking your host is a violation of Hospitality and again voids your guest-rights.

I'm rather strongly on Philhibbs' side on this one.

The NPCs violated hospitality, violently. A violent reaction all the way around would be about what I would expect. I may have tried to take the second one prisoner and ransom him or some such. But it really depends on the social situation. Yet, as is to me... both the PCs have a very strong claim to self-defense, violation of hospitality, and whatnot in the whole affair. Including with second NPC, IMO.