Nuts and bolts of the Imperium (gov't - how it works)

[HalC]

Always a touchy subject, and always one that seems so ill defined after all these years...

It wasn't until T5 came out, that Marc and gang finally set down to say "hey, this is how the landed thingie works, and these are the worlds that have what kinds of nobility, and if the noble doesn't arrive at the moot, he can sell his vote to be voted by proxy.

Prior to that, we had GURPS NOBLES, that, sorry to say, goes through contortionist hoops to idealize man's role in the Imperial government, and doesn't really explain a thing. <sigh>

Which brings me to implications, the nature of the human beast, and the fact that governments impose order by means of overwhelming threat of applied power so as to keep the really beastly individuals from running rough shod over the rest of society, thereby killing any hope of peaceful co-operation. It seems that man NEEDS government to keep things operational. That is, until something goes wrong.

Which brings me in a roundabout fashion, to the question. How the Imperial government works. Take for instance, the prospect of Nobility having to be of a given level or higher, in order to vote in the Moot. I've noted that most worlds that have only a knight assigned to the world, have a low population value. Those that have Barons or higher, tend to have high populations. I noted too, that in theory, it seems as though a mere 10 people could gather round, call themselves a government, and they'd have to be treated as such - right? Yet, on other worlds, they're corporately owned, and the people on the world are workers extracting raw materials etc. If 10 people can constitute a government, who is to say that 20 people who show up later can create their own government right? Who is the Imperium going to recognize as the rightful government?

So, as I wrestle with these questions, I have decided, for my Traveller Universe at least, that there are essentially two kinds of worlds. The first, is "Member Worlds" who have a voter in the moot. The second are those worlds that do not have a member of Nobility who can vote in the moot. For me, that implies that membership in the moot sort of requires that the world must meet certain minimal requirements before the world needs a Baron or higher.

With the advent of T5's scheme of nobility, and detailing the fiefs of the landed nobility, I had to ask myself "What are the rules surrounding a Noble's fief? Does the Noble find that his land comes under the auspices of the world government, and is governed by the world's laws, or does his manor, like the starport - have an extrality line that clearly marks the boundaries of his domain from that of the rest of the world? Can someone race over the boundary that demarks where the world's government holds sway ends, and where the Imperial land's sway begin? Can a fugitive cross that line somehow, and beg for asylum? What happens when a world finds itself at odds with a political party that want's its government tossed on its ear, and replaced with a new political body? Often, such a change requires a revolution, or a coup, or what have you. What happens if the government, that has a treaty with the Imperium, is overthrown? Can the new government tell the Imperium "Get the heck off our land and stay there"? Can the new government say "We didn't sign the treaty with you - what are you going to do, bomb us back to the stone age?" All these questions and more...

So, here's a thread for people to air their thoughts - not only on how they'd like to see how the government works per se, but also to point out implications of past written material on how the Imperium works. For example, if the "ruling class" doesn't have skin in the game, they tend to not care all too much about the well being of the rest of the universe. If the ruling class gets too powerful, corruption sets in as they try to gain more power, or safeguard what power they have. It took Rome some 300 years to go from a culturally moral and civic minded culture, to a corrupt one that engaged in the practice of "What's good for me is good for Rome" instead of how it used to be "what's good for Rome is good for us." I won't go into the area of modern politics in the United States as it runs the risk of getting too personal, too political, etc. But the point I'm making is that the Imperium is likely to run into stability issues and having to combat corruption somehow, as it is in the nature of the human beast to do things like selfishly gather power and abuse it.

So - what do Nobility really do in the Imperium? How does the "fief" rules work (like starports)? How does the Imperium deal with change in the form of a world undergoing rebellion, and the government type changes? What is the law level of the Nobility in question? Are they custom bound to honor the laws of their Emperor at the Capital? If they can arm their own huscales and have a body guard with them at all times, chances are, there are laws, and then there are LAWS.

Air out your own quesions and see if people can hammer out a solution here. Me? I'm busy digging into GURPS FAR TRADER to detail the world trade values (tonnage and value of the trade per annum). Then I Have to create actual trade partner lists - so that when players show up on a given world, all of the traffic going from one world to another - can be listed easily enough.

Well, the hay is yelling out my name, and my eyelids are getting heavier by the second...

Hal

 

[baithammer]

Imperium Nobles act as representatives of the Imperium for the holdings in question with local governments administrating domestic issues. ( Sometimes can be direct rule depending on how the holdings are setup.)

that has a treaty with the Imperium, is overthrown? Can the new government tell the Imperium "Get the heck off our land and stay there"? Can the new government say "We didn't sign the treaty with you - what are you going to do, bomb us back to the stone age?" All these questions and more...

They can try but openly defying the Imperium will usually result in pacification as the holdings are granted by recognition of the Imperium. ( As the holding are also a revenue stream for the Imperium.)

The first, is "Member Worlds" who have a voter in the moot. The second are those worlds that do not have a member of Nobility who can vote in the moot. For me, that implies that membership in the moot sort of requires that the world must meet certain minimal requirements before the world needs a Baron or higher.

These worlds usually are holdings of a higher noble who has a vote in the moot, with the local representative being a vassal of the higher noble.

But the point I'm making is that the Imperium is likely to run into stability issues and having to combat corruption somehow, as it is in the nature of the human beast to do things like selfishly gather power and abuse it.

This is precisely the problem with the Imperium as status and relationships are a bigger driver of the Imperium proper.

what do Nobility really do in the Imperium?

Act as the representative of the Imperium for the holding, collecting tithe for the Imperium and acting as an arbiter for conflicts in the holding.

How does the "fief" rules work

In general acts as a revenue stream for the noble and sometimes have land under there direct control.

How does the Imperium deal with change in the form of a world undergoing rebellion, and the government type changes?

As long as the new regime respects the rule of the Imperium, pays tithes and has support of some faction of the imperium, results in recognition of the new regime if successful.

What is the law level of the Nobility in question?

Power of the nobility is derived from the Imperium and generally are treated like a modern day ambassador, if the local government has an issue with a particular noble it results in petitioning the liege of the noble and so on up the chain.

 

[Sinanju]

My view is the Imperium has dominion over interplanetary and interstellar space. Period. It has NO authority over the planets that exist within Imperial space, except insofar as it retains sovereignty over starports, and makes rules regarding interplanetary/interstellar trade. The Imperium exists (in theory, and mostly in practice as well) to prevent conflicts between member worlds/systems, to prevent another Fall (tm) and the widespread chaos, death, and technical regression that accompanies such a cataclysm. To this end the Imperium maintains a monopoly on warships within the Imperium, regulates interplanetary/interstellar trade, and taxes it. That is the Imperium's primary source of income. (Caveat: I've not read T5 so am not really familiar with the rules for fiefs.)

So...the Imperium has no say over what sort of government a planet has (or doesn't have). That's up to the locals. If a revolutionary government arises which doesn't recognize the sovereignty of the starport, that's the same as a modern-day revolutionary government attacking or seizing an embassy. It's an act of war, assaulting the sovereign soil of another nation. The Imperium can be expected to respond very harshly. If they confine their depredations to the locals, well, it's not the Imperium's place to interfere in local politics, up to and including war. That's not the Imperium's job.

A planetary government can make treaties with other worlds, establish trade, etc. But it cannot make war on other worlds. It cannot interfere with the flow of passengers/cargo through an Imperial Starport. It can create whatever rules it likes about trade/travel across the Extrality line (either coming in or going out), but traffic simply "passing thru"--or businesses operating within the starport that might offend local sensibilities--are sacrosanct. (A "dry" world may object strenuously to the existence of bars at the starport, but they can't do anything about it. On the other hand, they're free to seize any alcohol locals try to bring across the XT Line, or punish them for drinking in the starport bar once they're back.)

This bright line rule (the Imperium controls space, member worlds control their own affairs) is intended to minimize the temptation to--and opportunities for--corruption. No matter how much an Imperial noble may want to interfere in planetary affairs, he has no authority to do so. Any attempt to do so will provoke a storm of protest from many worlds, who see the threat to their own sovereignty if that effort is allowed to succeed. By the same token, attempts by rich, powerful worlds to project power across interplanetary/interstellar space is a threat to the Imperium, and won't be allowed--but short of that, the Imperium has to accept whatever arrangements they choose to employ on their own world. It isn't perfect, of course, but perfection isn't an option for any human civilization.

One aspect of the existence of anagathic drugs I find intriguing is the possibility of greatly extending the mean time between civilizational failures. Here on earth, civilizations have an average lifespan of about 200 years before they decline, or so I read once. Or, as it is often put:

"From bondage to spiritual faith,
From spiritual faith to great courage,
From courage to liberty,
From liberty to abundance,
From abundance to selfishness,
From selfishness to complacency,
From complacency to apathy,
From apathy to dependency,
From dependency back again to bondage."

Or, in other words, the famous observation about families of great wealth: "From rags to riches to rags in three generations."

One generation creates liberty, the next may take it for granted, and the next no longer sees the value in those "old-fashioned" values, and eventually things crumble.

Anagathics make it possible for a generation to live much, much longer, thereby slowing this seemingly inevitable drift from the founding values. And since I personally think that life extension technology is all but inevitable in reality (and highly desirable), I would hope it might have that effect. (It will other, less delightful effects as well, but again--nothing is perfect.)

 

[baithammer]

The Imperium isn't a benevolent entity that provides a federation, all power is derived from the Emperor through his nobles and administration with a tacit acknowledgement of autonomy in domestic issues so long as the tithes are paid, trade flows and the local government stays within the Imperium.

If they confine their depredations to the locals, well, it's not the Imperium's place to interfere in local politics, up to and including war. That's not the Imperium's job.

The Imperium stays out of the local issues so long as its interests and those of the nobility aren't transgressed, if someone disrupts these interests the Imperium or Noble can and most likely will intervene.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I like when the Imperium declares a planet a Red Zone and proceeds to nuke it from orbit, not allowing anyone to escape it.

 

[NOLATrav]

Less poetic and perhaps less insightful than Sinanju's observations, but IMTU there is a contract required to be a part of the Imperium. There is also a hierarchy of Imperial nobility that limits the Moot membership to a certain level of nobility.

IMTU a given world's government decides that being part of the Imperium is beneficial (or not). If it is deemed beneficial, the starport is declared Imperial territory and the Imperial noble assigned to that starport is granted a fief adjacent to or near the starport. Local government then has control out to 10 planetary diameters, the Imperial representative then being responsible for the distance out to safe jump. This is malleable; in many instances lunar colonies allow/require the local government to take responsibility for a much greater distance (read, possibilities for in-system strife). T5 posits a small craft maneuver drive that essentially begins to fail outside of 10 diameters so that seems a good baseline limit to local autonomy.

Backwaters and other relatively insignificant worlds may get a Knight who has a few tens of acres or perhaps a single mining/resource operation. As the perceived value of a given world ratchets up, so does the rank of the noble assigned to administer that world.

So basically a kickback to the Imp noble grants protection from pirates, onerous neighbor systems and to a certain extent internal, in-system conflict to keep the Mainworld as viable as possible in the larger scheme of things. This is the basic feudal structure of the Imperium: resources and revenue in exchange for protection above and beyond what the world can muster on its own. Plus safe trade with the rest of the Imperium. Regardless of a given noble's intent, it's likely a Knight could drum up a SBD or two to keep the trade lanes open.

The level and quality of that protection is a separate matter, dependent upon the world itself, the Imp noble in question, and also the relationship to the other Imp nobles in the area. Which gets us back to the hierarchy.

A Knight will have a few acres on a world, a Baronet will have a handful of holdings throughout the world and possibly in the stellar system while a Baron will most likely be the most powerful person in the entire system, influencing local government and driving policies toward what's most beneficial for the Imperium (or the noble himself). A Viscount or Count will do the same for a cluster of worlds, a Marquis may control a significant trade main and then a Duke will oversee the subsector as a whole. Each of those nobles will have as best a fleet as they can muster.

At every level, the Imp noble has recourse only to the next higher noble in the chain (unless they try to make a side deal; read, subsector intrigue). So a Count will manage and represent a handful of Knights, a Marquis will represent a handful of Counts, the small handful of Marquis will deal directly with the subsector Duke. The subsector Duke then (hopefully having his ducks in a row) approaches the Sector Duke - who actually has a vote in the Moot. So a Sector Duke with a lot of fires to put out has precious little influence in the Moot (because his 'underlings' are not performing well) but ironically can garner a lot of attention from the Imperium proper (this troubled area needs more resources... or does it? Read, highest level intrigue).

My PCs have never explored the lofty levels of Imp politics IMTU because we're more of a frontier, Firefly-style campaign. But building this structure has been invaluable to me as a ref because I know how the big picture works and it puts so much flesh on the bones. I actually have a SOC scale that goes to Z (33) IMTU...Z is OTU Strephon. The mightiest my players have encountered is Countess Janine (SOC 18) who holds sway over a cluster of 3 frontier worlds they've been ... exploiting?... exploring?... but they're about to get some dirt on the Countess which might mean they encounter the lackeys of Marquis Grillo (SOC 21)....

 

[NOLATrav]

I like when the Imperium declares a planet a Red Zone and proceeds to nuke it from orbit, not allowing anyone to escape it.

Interesting for your TU perhaps but doesn't feel germane to the topic.

 

[HalC]

I like when the Imperium declares a planet a Red Zone and proceeds to nuke it from orbit, not allowing anyone to escape it.

Interesting for your TU perhaps but doesn't feel germane to the topic.

On one hand no, but on another... Yes.

Think of the implications of that statement. Who has that power within the Imperial government? What are the ramifications of such an action on world members of the third Imperium? What checks and balances exits to keep said activity to a minimum, or does it happen with regularity? The moot advises, but the Emperor decides? Is the moot even involved in such an event? If the moot can decide to disband the Imperium, by what basis does it do so?

That last is a major disconnect for me as far as real power goes. Why? World governments have no say over who their moot representatives are, or how they vote, or even what to do if the world government wants their backyard noble replaced. So, in reality (so to speak when talking about a fictional entity!) there is nothing to keep moot members from voting ONLY their personal interests. What say do world governments have in whether or not they're willing to continue the Imperial government's existence?

Implications - power structures exist to insure someone has the ability to force their will upon others. People game the system to their advantage, often at the expense of others. For every situation where power wielded is power achieved, someone is boring that use of power and thinking either to limit abuses, or acquiring said power for their own ability to abuse (or both as evidenced by "power for me, but not for thee" approach)

So, if Imperial reservations known as Fiefs exist (and T5 is the first systemic description of sizes of holdings and incomes derived based on hexes multiples by some factor), then their existence have implications. For example, if such enclaves of imperial "embassies" exist separate from local laws, a Noble might decide to import a TO TL 15 power generation plant and TL 15 hospital facilities, paying extra to maintain such facilities due to the fact the rest of the world is only at TL 7.

Had anyone scoped out the cost of maintaining a huscarle unit? A knight with. ONLY the income of his fief, per T5, couldn't effort it. In the end, no one person can fill in all of the details necessary to aptly the Third Imprium. For example? Using GURPS TRAVELLER: GROUND FORCES, along with a spreadsheet and accounting for wages, equipment purchases and some upkeep costs, the cost to field one Battalion is equal to three Imperial destroyers (grav-tanks being a huge cost right there!). Until people explore the implications of assertions made by authors over time, blind acceptance of what is written may create disconnects from expected realities.

So, yes, it sort of does matter who can declare red zones, why they can or do declare red zones, etc.

 

[HalC]

So, let's examine nuts and bolts here. Let's say, for the sake of example, Earth as it is today, becomes a member world. Let's further stipulate that there are 3 assigned greater nobles (barons or higher). Add to this, that only one nation has a ratified Imperial treaty/charter - China.

What happens now? Who pays the Imperial levy? What happens when world governments fail to abolish human trafficking laws? What happens if Great Britian and the United States attempt to colonize say, Mars? Can the Chinese government petition to make space travel by non-imperial governments illegal? In and on it goes. What CAN the Imperium do, and how might the other governments respond? What if the moot consistently advises the Iridium Throne to implement laws that distressed China on a constant basis? What if China, working subtly, convinced 200 world governments that the Imperium should be disolved - how do the 200 + 1 worlds FORCE their nobles to vote that way?

 

[baithammer]

Who pays the Imperial levy?

China through whatever means it can use to wring the other nations into line.

What happens when world governments fail to abolish human trafficking laws?

As long as its confined to the world itself, Imperium generally won't intervene unless the situation interferes with Imperium rule and trade.

What happens if Great Britian and the United States attempt to colonize say, Mars?

Most likely Mars would already be the domain of China or other Imperium interest.

Otherwise, they'd need to make arrangements with China and the Imperium to support such an action.

Can the Chinese government petition to make space travel by non-imperial governments illegal?

Yes and don't need to petition anyone to do this, as long as the Imperium and Nobles interests aren't affected.

how might the other governments respond?

In order for China to have the agreements with the Imperium they would require the ability to control the activities on the world. Other governments could attempt to contest this action, but must be careful not to affect Imperium or Noble interests.

What if the moot consistently advises the Iridium Throne to implement laws that distressed China on a constant basis?

China would need to find a way to appease the Throne through gathering support of nobles with Moot influence.

What if China, working subtly, convinced 200 world governments that the Imperium should be disolved - how do the 200 + 1 worlds FORCE their nobles to vote that way?

Would require the resources of one of the Imperium's rivals and would need to be very close regionally to avoid being picked off one by one. ( Nobles have self interest on maintaining the Imperium as its the root of their power.)

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I like when the Imperium declares a planet a Red Zone and proceeds to nuke it from orbit, not allowing anyone to escape it.

Interesting for your TU perhaps but doesn't feel germane to the topic.

A novel has been written about it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The bit that everyone misses:
we do not know enough about the Imperial core sectors to even guess. IMHO DGPs image of the Imperial interior was flat out wrong.

In LBB4 and LBB5 we are told that the Imperium is a remote central government

remote - a long way away
central government - within the long way away core sectors the Imperial government rules directly as a central authority

The autonomy for local worlds is something that is only granted out on the frontier in places like the Spinward Marches, where we are told Imperial government begins at the subsector level with the subsector duke commanding the Imperial apparatus within their region.

The further you travel inwards, away from the frontier sectors, the more worlds should be full Imperial members and ruled directly by the Imperium and its nobles. It is on such worlds that the full range of noble titles and holdings will be expressed.

Out on the frontier, in the Spinward Marches, it is rare for a world to have any Imperial noble in any sort of authority over the world in question.Norris doesn't rule Regina for example, whereas Delphine does rule Mora and is a subsector/sector duke to boot.

In the SM the Imperium has no authority to grant land on planets it doesn't own to bobles with no local authority, but note how the Imperium is colonising certain SM worlds directly...

 

[phavoc]

I like when the Imperium declares a planet a Red Zone and proceeds to nuke it from orbit, not allowing anyone to escape it.

Interesting for your TU perhaps but doesn't feel germane to the topic.

A novel has been written about it.

Are you referring to Agent of the Imperium Shawn? Just because Miller wrote it doesn't make it canon for the game. Granted, the game postulates pocket universes, so putting consciousness on wafers and having a Sten-like character running around whacking things in the name of the Emperor is within the confines of game possibility.

With that being said I would also say it's NOT part of the normal operations of the Imperium. Obliterating a planet would have far-reaching consequences for any government. It would be akin to the US nuking NYC because a sect of vampires were there and we HAD TO wipe them out. It could not be done without consequences. I've not read Agent, and have no plans to do so. I am rather wary of giving money to MM sight unseen these days after the terrible kickstarter fiasco that I participated in. So I will keep with the idea of the Imperium not being that.

To the OP - grants of nobility also come with requirements. A noble on a planet may own some land given to them by the Imperium. However that land would (a) first need to be owned by the nobility, and (b) the owner would still be subject to local planetary laws. So it's not a simple question. For those planets that are not friendly with the Imperium, the amount of land to grant would be small. As stated above, some planets only Imperial interests are the starport. That limits things a great deal.

Other worlds may have large areas owned by the Imperium, the sub-sector nobility, or further down the food chain. Those nobles are still expected to pay their taxes. Being a noble comes with benefits and burdens. That's why there are lots of landless nobles. And there are those who sold or lost their lands and have nothing but their title - which that and a few Cr might get you a cup of coffee. Fortunately ALL citizens and planets have to support the Imperium through direct or indirect taxation. And military levies would be local navies at the sector, sub-sector, and planetary level. Few nobles would have any military resources that would be useful. So in this case I don't see it as how barons and such provided troops to the king in Europe and elsewhere.

Nobles may get a bit more courtesy, but laws are laws, and nobles aren't above the laws (though nobles may enforce the laws). I would expect that nobles would be asked to politely come with the police rather than be thrown down and cuffed. But refusal to cooperate means they just might.

 

[NOLATrav]

I like when the Imperium declares a planet a Red Zone and proceeds to nuke it from orbit, not allowing anyone to escape it.

Interesting for your TU perhaps but doesn't feel germane to the topic.

A novel has been written about it.

True, fair enough. I keep forgetting the most recent retcon, having only recently reconciled the different versions of T5 in my head. Although in some ways it's brought the setting full circle.

But I don't consider the setting to be the game, I generally roll with my own ATU.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Agent of the Imperium is canonical for the OTU, it says so in the book. The subtitle is 'a story of the Traveller universe'.

This novel is set in the Traveller universe, governed by the events (the canon) of
the background and history that has been chronicled since the role-playing game was first
published in 1977.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Are you referring to Agent of the Imperium Shawn? Just because Miller wrote it doesn't make it canon for the game.

It is setting canoniocal.

With that being said I would also say it's NOT part of the normal operations of the Imperium.

Then you would be wrong.

I've not read Agent, and have no plans to do so. So I will keep with the idea of the Imperium not being that.

Then you are wasting your time discussing the canonical 3I setting since you don't know the official version other than through other peoples posts.
Read the book, it doesn't cost much and you will learn a lot about the 3I setting that at the moment you are denying exists.

 

[phavoc]

Are you referring to Agent of the Imperium Shawn? Just because Miller wrote it doesn't make it canon for the game.

It is setting canoniocal.

With that being said I would also say it's NOT part of the normal operations of the Imperium.

Then you would be wrong.

I've not read Agent, and have no plans to do so. So I will keep with the idea of the Imperium not being that.

Then you are wasting your time discussing the canonical 3I setting since you don't know the official version other than through other peoples posts.
Read the book, it doesn't cost much and you will learn a lot about the 3I setting that at the moment you are denying exists.

One could easily argue the semantics of canonical, but that's probably a moot point. My argument against the canon is that the revisions don't mesh with the current versions, nor I would argue, the intent of the game setting vs. the book setting. Fortunately we are all able to choose how we spend our money, or responding to posts in a forum. If you feel I'm wasting my time by not wasting my money, I would posit that you are wasting yours trying to convince me to purchase it. Ah, the wonders of semantics!

 

[Sigtrygg]

The current version is T5, the MgT Third Imperium is an ATU at best the further it moves from T5 canon and fails to incorporate info from AotI.

As it is some of the recent changes in the MgT 3I will have massive repercussions - especially if they fail to use the technologies in the Great Rifts sourcebook for the battlefleets in the forthcoming Fifth Frontier War.

The nature of the government of the Third Imperium, the subject of this thread, requires familiarity with T5 and AotI if discussing the OTU Third Imperium.

 

[baithammer]

The bit that everyone misses:
we do not know enough about the Imperial core sectors to even guess. IMHO DGPs image of the Imperial interior was flat out wrong.

In LBB4 and LBB5 we are told that the Imperium is a remote central government

remote - a long way away
central government - within the long way away core sectors the Imperial government rules directly as a central authority

Direct rule is only as effective as the speed of communications, and since the minimum is a week or more between 1-6 parsecs, even the core can't be directly ruled by the central government.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Agent of the Imperium is canonical for the OTU, it says so in the book. The subtitle is 'a story of the Traveller universe'.

This novel is set in the Traveller universe, governed by the events (the canon) of
the background and history that has been chronicled since the role-playing game was first
published in 1977.

Someone gets it. The novel changed some UWPs on the map. How more canon does something have to be?