How to give high level PC challenge with bunch of mobs?

[Clovenhoof]

While I agree with

Conan is not about getting stuff

I would like to comment on this

Remember Gygax's analogy to frontier economics too? The more cash your players have the more expensive things are.

This is nonsense. If you somehow win a million dollars in real life, you still don't suddenly have to pay a hundred bucks for a beer in the pub around the corner.
I once had a GM like that (not in Conan), who would charge us like five silver for a small beer, when in the game world it should cost no more than maybe half a silver.

Of course, in Conan you have High Living and the rule that goes with it, but still you need to apply it with measure and means. I have to say it used to be quite fun in my group, but in our last session I was a bit unhappy about how violently the GM would pull the silver out of our pouches. There's no way in hell you could blow a thousand silver during a single night when you're in a Cimmerian town with not much to offer in the luxuries department.

But anyway: the rule says that the characters will blow half their wealth every week, UNLESS they have definitive plans for the money. If the player decides he wants to buy a Masterwork Breastplate, he can save up to six thousand silver.

Note that in the Conan stories, we never see our hero actually _buying_ any of his stuff. He just has it. And sometimes loses it in the course of the story. We never learn if he buys his stuff or loots it or steals it or gets it as reward for some previous service.

If you play an episodic game like that, where the end of one adventure does not influence what the PCs have at the beginning of the next one, don't always keep them on the short leash. The players will get frustrated if they get the feeling they are labouring in a treadmill without ever making any progress. Let them have decent gear in one adventure, then poor gear in the next one, and then awesome stuff in the one after that, and so forth. Keep things interesting by varying often.

If however you play a more classical campaign game, where pretty much every session picks up where you left it the last time, let the players handle their gear themselves. Let them save money if they have plans for it, give them a chance to get the gear they want, and don't just take their toys away for no better reason than that you are too inept to provide them with a challenge if the PCs wear heavy armour. If they come across a situation in the adventure where they have to abandon stuff in order to succeed, that's fair game, but don't take control of their characters between sessions.

 

[Clovenhoof]

So your point is that instead of 40 1st level, I should use 40 6th level???

No. But you might use 10 6th level. What's the point of a fight against 40 1st levels? If our GM did that, I'd just buy Great Cleave and be done with these fights in 5 rounds. Anyway, the piling rule as written gets pretty nasty with mid-level mobs.

In our games, the GM normally describes battles so that the lowlevel mooks of both sides pair off with each other, leaving the elites for us. If we're on our own and nobody's on our side, we simply don't take on masses of mobs but try more cunning approaches.

And yes, the GM keeps track of his NPCs hitpoints. It's not rocket science.

One small modification, and now every thug will be always be threatening and combat will resolve faster.

How will that lead to faster combat? By making the fights so deadly you have a TPK in the third round? If you wanted faster combat, you would have to make sure the PCs wade through your opposition without difficulties. Making fights more difficult does not make them faster.

 

[treeplanter]

Yeah exactly. You are facing overwhelming odds. So either you have the right feat and can kill 20 foes in 3 rounds to have a little breath. Either you flee as fast as you can. Either you die horribly.

Instead of: Roll ton of die for hours.

 

[Scorpion13]

The plus one to everything rule sounds good to me. Easy to remember, and makes combat just a little more dangerous.

What kinds of fatigue rules are there for prolonged combat against lots of opponents? Combat is pretty stressful and tiring when its one on one or in smaller numbers like that. When its one guy against a mob of people, its gotta be much worse.

 

[Vambelte]

I love the pilling rule, really like it, but to avoid loosing time recalculating bonuses all the time, I made the pilling rule a bit more simple. I just add +1 to hit for every 2 characters attacking another one. This way if you are surrounded, every one of the 8 enemies gets +4 to hit you.


Treeplanter, the idea do add to AP and damge is good. I really think that in Conan numbers must always count, a character should never face 20+ enemies alone, knowing he will win, just because he is lvl 16 or something like that...

I'll discuss that change whit my group, and I think we will use that...

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

While I agree with

Conan is not about getting stuff

I would like to comment on this

Remember Gygax's analogy to frontier economics too? The more cash your players have the more expensive things are.

This is nonsense. If you somehow win a million dollars in real life, you still don't suddenly have to pay a hundred bucks for a beer in the pub around the corner.
I once had a GM like that (not in Conan), who would charge us like five silver for a small beer, when in the game world it should cost no more than maybe half a silver.

Of course, in Conan you have High Living and the rule that goes with it, but still you need to apply it with measure and means. I have to say it used to be quite fun in my group, but in our last session I was a bit unhappy about how violently the GM would pull the silver out of our pouches. There's no way in hell you could blow a thousand silver during a single night when you're in a Cimmerian town with not much to offer in the luxuries department.

But anyway: the rule says that the characters will blow half their wealth every week, UNLESS they have definitive plans for the money. If the player decides he wants to buy a Masterwork Breastplate, he can save up to six thousand silver.

Note that in the Conan stories, we never see our hero actually _buying_ any of his stuff. He just has it. And sometimes loses it in the course of the story. We never learn if he buys his stuff or loots it or steals it or gets it as reward for some previous service.

If you play an episodic game like that, where the end of one adventure does not influence what the PCs have at the beginning of the next one, don't always keep them on the short leash. The players will get frustrated if they get the feeling they are labouring in a treadmill without ever making any progress. Let them have decent gear in one adventure, then poor gear in the next one, and then awesome stuff in the one after that, and so forth. Keep things interesting by varying often.

If however you play a more classical campaign game, where pretty much every session picks up where you left it the last time, let the players handle their gear themselves. Let them save money if they have plans for it, give them a chance to get the gear they want, and don't just take their toys away for no better reason than that you are too inept to provide them with a challenge if the PCs wear heavy armour. If they come across a situation in the adventure where they have to abandon stuff in order to succeed, that's fair game, but don't take control of their characters between sessions.

Think being conned and fleeced out of your hard earned money isn't realistic?!

You want to try living in the U.K. :lol:

 

[Korppis]

I would also like to add that earlier in my campaign two of my players (Nordheimer barbarian and cimmer'ian barbarian, both had just reached level 4) did together slaughter about 20 cultists, they were fighting their backs against a wall (to prevent their opponents to surround them, alhough still getting -2 to dodge for not having a free square next to them).
This was one of a first major battles on my campaign and it was total slaughter when my characters massacred those unarmoured cultists who outnumbered them about 10 to 1. One of them was wearing helmet and mail hauberk, another one had custom-made blackened (but statistically ordinary) scale corslet and helmet.
They were also able to avoid almost totally fighting against the armoured and more heavily armed guards outside of temple by sneaking in to their camp at night, frightening away their hores and when half of the guards were chacing after them they ambushed rest of them.

(Also, bit of earlier our cimmerian was able to kill man-ape pet of a priest, which i had also considered to be a serious threat. With a single critical hit. With an armoured gauntlet.)

In both of the situations i just went with it and let them have their moments of being bad-ass. In Howard's stories Conan,exspecially later in his career, is quite ofthen able to slaughter mobs of enemies with an ease, usually it is described how his softer and more civilized opponents just dont have match against his primal strength and vigour.
After all there are always new chances to throw opponents against them, in my opinion every single battle doesnt need to be serious threat for them. After all, they cant roll natural 20's every time.

 

[Sourcerer]

I think the piling rule is not violent enough.

I'll try something like +1 to hit, +1 damage and +1 AP for each extra attackers.

I made the pilling rule a bit more simple. I just add +1 to hit for every 2 characters attacking another one.

Both these rule changes might tweak the game more towards a balance you want to achieve, but they both don't really realistic.

Being attacked by multiple opponents makes it harder to defend yourself properly. It doesn't make you more susceptible to damage nor does it weaken your armour or sharpen your enemies weapons.
Averaging the boni would just be a variation of flanking and not a continous wearing down of the defense (imho a very elegant mechanic).
Given a dynamic fight I don't think it really more simple; turning the bonus into a cumulative penalty to defense is equivalent and very easy to keep track of (ymmv).



On a side note, none of you seem to be allowing Leadership for all these changes and desires to empower first level characters massively unbalances this feat.

 

[Hervé]

We don't focus much on gear in our campaigns. More than often, the party members will lose their stuff and equip themselves with whatever they can find. That's the Conan way... Most of them will disdain armour, preferring to focus on mobility.

Money isn't really a problem to get an armour, at the lower levels you can get a DR7 for 140 sp (Scale+Cap), which is largely enough to keep most foes at bay. And it's quite cheap, even for a low level guy.

GMs should really stress the inconvenience of wearing metal armour, playing on noise, bulkiness and climatic conditions. Characters shouldn't be able to wander around in heavy armour, though they could don one when expecting a big battle.

 

[Sourcerer]

GMs should really stress the inconvenience of wearing metal armour, playing on noise, bulkiness and climatic conditions. Characters shouldn't be able to wander around in heavy armour, though they could don one when expecting a big battle.

I know quiet a few live action roleplayers which enjoy walking around a whole weekend or even week in chainmail, scales and even fullplate.
These are only insignificantly lighter than historically correct ones, but then again those players rarely have such heroic strength attributes as paper&pen characters.
And they do so in heavy rain and temperatures much above 30° C.

The Swiss Guard also still wears breastplates for long durations.

 

[Clovenhoof]

What Sourcerer said. It's not plausible (I hate to use the term "realistic" in a fantasy RPG) that piling mobs get bonuses to damage and piercing.

Also, the inconvenience of wearing armour is overrated. It is certainly not more cumbersome to wear it on your body than to carry it in your pack. And in Conan RPG, we have Carrying Capacity rules that allow a Str 20 character to lug around one hundred and thirty (130) pounds of stuff without the slightest inconvenience as long as he doesn't have to climb, jump, tumble or move stealthily.

Another option to make combat more challenging without cheesy player-shafting rule changes has been suggested on this board many months ago, I don't remember by whom:
use mid level opponents instead of 1st level ones, but give them minimum hit points. For example, a level 5 Soldier with Con 12 would have 19HP. If you want to make them go down even faster, give them Con 10 for just 14HP total.

 

[Sourcerer]

Another option to make combat more challenging without cheesy player-shafting rule changes has been suggested on this board many months ago, I don't remember by whom:
use mid level opponents instead of 1st level ones, but give them minimum hit points. For example, a level 5 Soldier with Con 12 would have 19HP. If you want to make them go down even faster, give them Con 10 for just 14HP total.

Just adopting D&D4 Minions would be even easier. They have just 1 HP.
One of the few things D&D4 did really good

And you are right, it's plausible, not realistic what I meant.

 

[Constantine XI]

Another option to make combat more challenging without cheesy player-shafting rule changes has been suggested on this board many months ago, I don't remember by whom:
use mid level opponents instead of 1st level ones, but give them minimum hit points. For example, a level 5 Soldier with Con 12 would have 19HP. If you want to make them go down even faster, give them Con 10 for just 14HP total.

For a more cinematic feel, make them minions (as per 4E): Attacks and defences as, say 5th level characters, but only 1hp. Not everything about 4E need be dismissed out of hand. On the contrary, minions and a simple second wind/healing surge mechanic is very Conanesque.

 

[Hervé]

Constantine XI wrote:

Not everything about 4E need be dismissed out of hand. On the contrary, minions and a simple second wind/healing surge mechanic is very Conanesque.

That's the way I feel, too...

I know quiet a few live action roleplayers which enjoy walking around a whole weekend or even week in chainmail, scales and even fullplate.
These are only insignificantly lighter than historically correct ones, but then again those players rarely have such heroic strength attributes as paper&pen characters.
And they do so in heavy rain and temperatures much above 30° C.

I do a lot of live action and historical re creations myself. A chainmail hauberk weights about 25 kg. You don't really feel it during the first few minutes, but after a couple of hours, let me tell you it's another matter.
Make a fight or two under a hot sun and you'll be asking mercy in no time!
Helmets are also very difficult to keep all the time...

 

[Korppis]

Doing live-action / re-enc. myself and also training historical swordmanship (although most of the time unarmured).
My usual kit contains mail hauberk with knee-long sleeves (~20kg), plate armour elbow guards, gauntlets and shoulder guards + gorget and padded armour/gambeson. And helmet. Together this all is something 30 kg and i can easily wear all this stuff whole day, walk long distances and fight in it... Most of the modern day soldiers are also excepted to be able to march about 40km with as heavy equipment as this...

On the other hand running and jumping are more or less out of question, swimming in that gear would be impossible, as well as sneaking; that gear is makes lots of noise.

Of course i will feel like a i'd been beaten up with a ugly stick on a following day but that is another matter... and i am mostly on average physical condition on a modern day standards.

 

[treeplanter]

Minion rule is cool in a way, but on the other hand I really hate when the "monster" don't follow the same rule as players. Basicly in 4th ed, there could be no level, all you do is upgrading the monster in the end. I don't see this as a great feature of 4th ed. Personnaly I think the best feature of 4th is the weapon damage and figthing-style balance, but that about it.


"Both these rule changes might tweak the game more towards a balance you want to achieve, but they both don't really realistic.

Being attacked by multiple opponents makes it harder to defend yourself properly. It doesn't make you more susceptible to damage nor does it weaken your armour or sharpen your enemies weapons.
Averaging the boni would just be a variation of flanking and not a continous wearing down of the defense (imho a very elegant mechanic).
Given a dynamic fight I don't think it really more simple; turning the bonus into a cumulative penalty to defense is equivalent and very easy to keep track of (ymmv). "

While I think it is a good idea, the result would be the same. Weither you add bonus to attacker or give penality to the defender, in the end it is down to the same thing. The important thing is that attack in number is stronger. It as nothing to do with the strenght of the current attacker growing or his weapon sharpening. It's just a way to conceptualize the fact that the more person who attack you, the more they get dangereous. You get attacked from all side and you can't defend yourself in 4 direction. Thus some attack get more brutal, a bit like a sneak attack.

 

[treeplanter]

Doing live-action / re-enc. myself and also training historical swordmanship (although most of the time unarmured).
My usual kit contains mail hauberk with knee-long sleeves (~20kg), plate armour elbow guards, gauntlets and shoulder guards + gorget and padded armour/gambeson. And helmet. Together this all is something 30 kg and i can easily wear all this stuff whole day, walk long distances and fight in it... Most of the modern day soldiers are also excepted to be able to march about 40km with as heavy equipment as this...

On the other hand running and jumping are more or less out of question, swimming in that gear would be impossible, as well as sneaking; that gear is makes lots of noise.

Of course i will feel like a i'd been beaten up with a ugly stick on a following day but that is another matter... and i am mostly on average physical condition on a modern day standards.

I second. I do live-action some time per year, I've a long sleeveless steel mail hauberk. No real problem wearing it all day either, but you're happy when you remove it. Sleeping in this is doable, but hell you don't sleep well lol (I can't imagine how you could sleep with the full-kit with breastplate and all without removing at least some part.)

Korpis, tell ourself, would you carry you're armor in a backpack all day long?

 

[Vambelte]

On a side note, none of you seem to be allowing Leadership for all these changes and desires to empower first level characters massively unbalances this feat.

I don't think anyone whit Leadership walks around whit a throng of his minions. The army you gte whit the feat is suposed to saty at some base/camp, and to be used on narrative sequences, not on roled combats... at least I see it that way...

Even the cohort, i just allow my player to roll for the cohort if their main carachter stays out of combat, which is a commom situation for a very social focused noble, whit a bodyguard cohorth...

 

[Korppis]

I second. I do live-action some time per year, I've a long sleeveless steel mail hauberk. No real problem wearing it all day either, but you're happy when you remove it. Sleeping in this is doable, but hell you don't sleep well lol (I can't imagine how you could sleep with the full-kit with breastplate and all without removing at least some part.)

Korpis, tell ourself, would you carry you're armor in a backpack all day long?

Hell no... It is hard enough to carry that to the car when i am going to the event.
I have tried sleeping in a 1300's transistional plate after being awake and armoured almost whole night, for me it was easiest to try resting in a half-sitting position against a wall and although it was possible to take a nap for about an hour it was really uncomfortable.
Maybe all of this might be easier if i'd be wearing an armour more than couple of times at month.

 

[Scorpion13]

I dont think the increasing DR piercing rule for mobs is unrealistic. There is no way, and I dont care what kind of LARPing youve done, that full plate is going to shrug off thirty guys crawling over you and whacking you with clubs. It doesnt make you Superman.