How to give high level PC challenge with bunch of mobs?

[Korppis]

Actually we are just playing campaign that is mostly happening in Nordheim and which is loosely based on viking sagas, and for the idea that Nordheimers are ancestors of scandinavian vikings who are later days worshipped as gods... Hostilities between Aesir and Vanir are more or less canon that is originating from those stories. So are some npc:s like warrior named Tyr who lost his hands in a battle against wolves, Scholar named Mimir who will be later decapitated by Vanir, one-eyed Aesir king named Woden, and his son who will later be assasinated with a bow during a feast(well, not misteltoe arrow or invulnerelability, i am trying to deconstruct the events in sagas).

Usually when i am planning next session (i have just loose line of events of whole campaing and major npc:s planned of the whole campaign) i plan couple of battles and challenges and think ways to make them memorable and different from ordinary "I hit - you hit -repeat until one side is dead" -battles. This time i had idea while i watched Cliffhanger about my players climbing a cliff while enemies try to shoot them. Because my players are usually quite well equipped next step was to make sure that those crappy hunting bows more of a threat for my players so let us make that cliff hard enough to climb so that they have to leave their heaviest armours and shields behind... Most of them are wearing at least chain hauberks + helmets and large shields just the way wealthy viking warriors did, against DR 6 - 8 those hunting bows just suck and i think that would be cooler than equip those Vanirs with crossbows or Bossonian longbows

 

[Korppis]

He tried to convince me than if he put his armour off and carried it with him and the end of a rope, he won't get any penalties for climbing the cliff as he wasn't exceeding his encumbrance value! Another gap in the rules that allows munchkin players to do absurd things...

I'm not really convinced that this is a gap in the rules.

When you take off armour and carry it in a backpack or otherwise it's only cargo and doesn't encumber more than other equipment.

Maybe the rules for encumbrance and it's effect on climbing are not too restrictive, but how few should a character be allowed to carry?
For a strong character a Light Load just means easily carrying a suit of armour.

Actually, it is lots of easier to wear an armour than carry it on a backback 8)

 

[Hervé]

Sourcerer wrote:

When you take off armour and carry it in a backpack or otherwise it's only cargo and doesn't encumber more than other equipment.

Obviously, you're not too familiar with armours, as you're putting more or less the same argument than my player...

Just like I told my player: try to imagine your scale armour and helm in your backpack (admitting you can find a backpack that is large enough)... Now add a two handed sword and then try to climb this 30' sheer frozen cliff...

Korppis wrote:

Actually, it is lots of easier to wear an armour than carry it on a backback

True here. Armours are far less bulky when you wear them than when you carry them. The encumbrance rules are lame, because they are only reasoning in terms of weight, but not in terms of bulk and volume...

That's probably why we never use them... As with most of the rules, we prefer rely on good sense than on fixed set of rules.

 

[Vambelte]

Back in 2005 when we first started playing Conan we had the armour problem, since everyone on the group were playing D&D and walking around all day long on plate mail was commom. So I tried to explain that in Conan games we need to be more realistic, and all, but some guys still wanted to use the heaviest armor, not a plate mail since it's ultra mega expensive.

So I've decided that if you carry more than half your light load, all day long, you get fatigued in the end of the day, and on the next day. I think that the light load capacity is ok, but not for carrying it all day long, on a journey, specialy when you fight or run... The endurance feat gives +2str to determine your carry cpacite in my games...

That made the soldiers use medium armor, instead of the ultra heavy ones, and they have an aceptable DR. We also changed helmets to give just +1 DR. They started wearing heavy armor just around the 10th level, when their Str were around 20.

Going back o the multiple enemies situation. I used the word hero, but I intended to say that I don't want the player to feel invencible. A large group of enemies must always be a treath in Conan, but at lvl 11/12 you should be abble to fight a large group ,and maybe, come out alive.

 

[treeplanter]

haha I like Hervé story. Hopefully he did not play again

Carying an armor in a backpack is not an option. Fuck the rule. Anyway, just climbing with a backpack with your lunch in it would already be VERY challenging.

That remind me of my last stupid DnD 4th ed game. I play a Paladin and obviously I wear a full plate (otherwise my character suck). So we arrive in an underground ruin and the enter is flooded. So, we do swimcheck. I tell the DM I throw away my full plate and then I dive in the water. So he tell me to keep my armor anyway (He is more the style to carry 2 tulwar and a greatsword and a scale hauberk in his backpack), otherwise my defense will be too low and i'll get crushed in the next encounter. I said, look, swiming in full plate is just impossible. I won't do that. Obviously the next encounter was really harsh . For your info, the ACP in 4th ed for Plate armour is... -2.

Korpis, your exemple is really nice. Attacking while the character are climbing is a great idea!

 

[Clovenhoof]

In all our Conan games, we've never had excessive armour usage.
First of all, we don't have Plate Armour in our games. (With the possible exception of one NPC in one adventure, but I don't really remember.)

Secondly, players value their characters' mobility very highly, so everyone usually prefers Light Armour. Mail Shirt + Steel Cap is par of the course, although many players just stick to Leather Jerkins.

Most NPCs however are clad in Scale Corselets or Hauberks, giving them also ~DR6 but reducing their movement -- so by wearing lighter armour, PCs can outmaneuver and, if necessary, outrun most NPCs.

However: just right now - after our last battle - I am considering getting my Barbarian a Breastplate and Great Helm (improving total DR from 7 to 9), or even buy the Heavy Armour proficiency at level 12 and combine Breastplate and Chain Shirt for even higher DR, although it would slightly reduce his Dodge Defense unless I can get hold of Masterwork pieces.

 

[treeplanter]

I'm fine with armour, as long as people accept that the loose mobility, and risk to be left behind if there is need to sneak. Our play group play it well enough so we never add problem with it really.

I think one small rule i'll add, is that i'll apply the armor check penality to fortitude save in harsh environment to better represent the fatigue caused by heavy armor. (I'm not sure but it might actually be a rule cause i've seen this somewhere). So, no problem when you're riding in full plate in gentle hills or meadow, but not so good when you're in a tropical forest and it's raining, or in the desert

 

[David St-Michel]

Personally, my players are not high-level yet.

I mix it up. They enjoy narratives, so I have several options for me.

1- Mob rules. No matter how cool you are, 30 level 1 rogues are still a dangerous bunch. Add in a higher level dude with a battle axe, and you have a nice challenge.

2- Use the environment. Rain, sleet, hail, winter, fog, mud, darkness... Whatever can impede them will do.

3- Relaxed armor rules. Ok, so your dude has DR infinity. It's still peices of armor stuck together. Get three of four burly men and hurl a couple of barrels filled with anything on him, and he'll eventually fall down. Pile on the mobs, and one of them can slip a dagger in between the cracks.

4- Monsters. Anything that isn't human poses a real danger, no matter how much metal you're carrying around on your person.

5- Rarity. I won't make heavy armor as available as the rest, just because I want to avoid having nine characters waltzing through a few hundred soldiers.

6- Magic. Not EVERY spell has to be known by the players... *zap* hey, my armor's turned to rust!

etc, etc.

Besides, I've read most of Howard's stories, and I saw Conan very rarely in anything heavier then chain mail. And besides... It's way cooler to have your players in clothing, jumping and ducking then having them walk like Robocop.

 

[zozotroll]

Finesse works just fine as well. And if you need a 20 to hit anyway, the etra points for using finesse dont matter at all. Sure, it may not work all the time, but then I dont want to see every fight be to the last HP. Many should be rather easy. But the players dont know which will be which, so they stay on thier toes.

 

[Scorpion13]

Isnt there a rule somewhere in Conan where if a hero is being attacked by multiple opponents, each opponent after the fist gets a plus one bonus to his attack?

And my all time, bar none, favorite way to deal with heavily armored warrior types is.....Hypnotism! Yes, if theyre carrying around that much gear, chances are their will save is crap. Dominate them and tell them to kill their friends, then slit their own throats. Thatll keep em on their toes.

Plus: poisons. Dont forget them.

 

[zozotroll]

Yes, after the first each gets a cumulative +1, so by the fourth or fith thats a pretty hefty add. But, if they cant get through the armor it doesnt matter how many hit.

 

[treeplanter]

Isnt there a rule somewhere in Conan where if a hero is being attacked by multiple opponents, each opponent after the fist gets a plus one bonus to his attack?

Yeah that is the piling rule. However a mob with +4 or +5 attack, even if he is the 8th opponent to attack it still only a +11 or 12 to attack.

A 12th level soldier with shield is like 28 parry and more than 100hp. add armor or DR, you'll virtually never get him down.

So I think in that case the best "strategy" is just roll one attack roll at like +25, assuming everyone save the last use the aid another action. the last to attack either use finesse or big power attack, so they'll get him down in maybe 10 to 15 rounds. Assuming our heros kill 3 to 5 mob per rounds (depending on luck and/or feat), he could bring down with him 30 to 75 ennemies. (probably lot more if he have whirlwind attack).

But thinking about it, let have 20 or something mob, half of them with melee weapon + shield and defensive feat. half of them with Warspear and offensive feat. So the first half surround the PC and use the aid another action on the spearmans while figthing defensively. Then you make the all the spearmans attack with a huge bonus. (like 10+ from piling rule and flanking, potential +2 from aid another). So you could have 8 spearman attack at +17 to +24. Not bad.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Besides, I've read most of Howard's stories, and I saw Conan very rarely in anything heavier then chain mail.

Have to disagree here. Conan seems to always wear the heaviest armour he can get his hands on. And not only when he is king. For example in Queen of the Black Coast he wears a Scale Hauberk and Great Helm. And in Beyond the Black River he points out that he owed his very survival to his armour -- mail shirt and steel cap at that time, compared to cloth or leather of the Borderers.

 

[Hervé]

Yes, after the first each gets a cumulative +1, so by the fourth or fith thats a pretty hefty add. But, if they cant get through the armor it doesnt matter how many hit.

That's exactly the point. Armour is way overpowered against low levels mobs and somewhat useless against high level/high strength characters, due to armour piercing, finesse attacks and all... This is what I said armour DR was a bit out of place in level based game like the D20 system.

 

[treeplanter]

I think the piling rule is not violent enough.

I'll try something like +1 to hit, +1 damage and +1 AP for each extra attackers. Now even a bunch of thug will be a serious threat. Of course it will sometime help the PC, but I'm fine with that too

 

[Hervé]

Pretty good idea from Treeplanter...

 

[Clovenhoof]

I don't get it. Instead of fiddling with the piling rule, why don't you just give your mobs 1 or 2 extra levels?
Or just 2 extra Strength points - that's also +1 to attack, damage and AP.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

There should be no problem with players having too much armour. My players arent high level or anything but theres no way they will ever be able to afford a full suit of plate, or even find someone who can make it for them.

Remember Gygax's analogy to frontier economics too? The more cash your players have the more expensive things are. Also, you can invoke the High Living rule, in the next adventure, they just dont have their armour anymore.

Conan is not about getting stuff, its about avoiding the constant threat of death.

 

[zozotroll]

I have them make a will save vs High living. That way they get a chance to buy some cool stuff. But even if they make it, they still waste half.

 

[treeplanter]

I don't get it. Instead of fiddling with the piling rule, why don't you just give your mobs 1 or 2 extra levels?
Or just 2 extra Strength points - that's also +1 to attack, damage and AP.

No. You don't get the point. I hate that. I WANT the mob to be low-level. I want the players to kill easily ONE of them. But I want I bunch of them to be real danger. No one would walk into 40 man thinking he would win the combat. There is no "level" in real life.

So your point is that instead of 40 1st level, I should use 40 6th level??? How logical is that? Also, it is not the same thing. Just one 6th level character would probably be good enough to hurt a higher level character. Plus you have to keep track of his HP and all. That still miss the point.

I think Piling rule is a great idea. The goal was to make multiples opponents a threat. It say, even Conan fears being attacked by multiple foes, especially if they are at all well-trained. The actual rule work well at lower level, but has is limit. Making the piling rule more violent solve the point. One small modification, and now every thug will be always be threatening and combat will resolve faster.