How to give high level PC challenge with bunch of mobs?

Really though, in most fights, the maximum number of attackers who can attack a player is going to be 5 or 6 at most.

So schemes to 'improve' low level mobs should take that into account.

If players have any sense they'll at least stand back to back for instance. Even if alone, it's hard to envisage more than a dozen npcs being able to target a character in any given round. Unless something very strange is going on.
 
Normally, wouldnt the mob try to grapple him and hold him down, maybe tie him up to drag him off to be burned at the stake or hanged? Even if they dont, Im giving anyone who is grappled down a penalty to armor no matter what he is wearing. Youre supposed to be moving when you use armor, nto just standing there letting people take swings at you at their leisure.

And another thing: there isnt an armor this side of ouright magic armor made to take the kind of abuse that comes from being beaten on by an angry mob. The armor should take damage itself, outside of the normal rules about armor taking a hit to DR from excessive damage.

Howabout this:

When an an attacker is considered flanked, any damaged reduction granted by armor he is wearing is considered to be halved when he is attacked by the character flanking him.

The idea that its ok that an armored character can wade through opponents unharmed is ridiculous. Conan certainly allows for a good amount of fantasy and escapism, but realism has to come into play at some point. In A Witch Shall Be Born Conan put his back to the wall when he fought the traitorous guardsmen, and even then he was sure he was done for. There was no way he was just wading in.

Escape is a big part of the S&S genre. Escape from the monster, the collapsing dungeon or the angry mob or army.

Just my thoughts.
 
Scorpion13 said:
I dont think the increasing DR piercing rule for mobs is unrealistic. There is no way, and I dont care what kind of LARPing youve done, that full plate is going to shrug off thirty guys crawling over you and whacking you with clubs. It doesnt make you Superman.

Not just larping, my main focus is historical swordmanship based on old fighting manuals.

Heavy armour like full plate or reinforced maille and padding can take quite an lots of punishment... The trick to kill armoured man is not trying to penetrate his armour but attack to the weak spot... Joints, face/visor etc.
Most of the fighting manuals of late medieval / early renesance show heavily armoured men grappling each other down and after one has been able to pin down his opponent he will finish him with dagger thrust in armpit or face.
Another option is use pollaxe, warhammer or similar heavy crushing weapon... it usually is not able to penetrate the armour but opponent inside will still feel the strokes.

As english is not my first language let me just quote fron Wiki:
Full plate armour made the wearer virtually impervious to sword blows as well as providing significant protection against arrows, bludgeons and even early firearms. Sword edges could not penetrate even relatively thin plate (as little as 1 mm). Also, although arrows shot from bows, crossbows and early firearms could occasionally pierce plate especially at close range, later improvements in the steel forging techniques and armour design made even this line of attack increasingly difficult. By its apex, hardened steel plate was almost impregnable on the battlefield. Knights were instead increasingly felled by polearms such as the halberd and blunt weapons such as maces or war hammers that could send concussive force through the plate armour resulting in injuries such as broken bones, organ haemorrhage and/or head trauma. Another tactic was to attempt to strike through the gaps between the armour pieces, using daggers, spears and spear points to attack the man-at-arms' eyes or joints.

Contrary to common misconceptions, a well-made suit of medieval 'battle' armour (as opposed to the primarily ceremonial 'parade' and 'tournament' armour popular with kings and nobility of later years) hindered its wearer no more than the equipment carried by soldiers today. It should be remembered that an armoured knight would be trained to wear armour from his teens, and would likely develop the technique and endurance needed to comfortably run, crawl, climb ladders, as well as mount and dismount his horse without recourse to a crane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour

(Historical sources also claim that really badass men-at-arms did boast with their strength by climbing up the downside of siege ladder fully armoured)

Mail armour provided an effective defence against slashing blows by an edged weapon and penetration by thrusting and piercing weapons; in fact The Royal Armoury at Leeds concluded that, "...it is almost impossible to penetrate using any conventional medieval weapon..."[5] A good sword blow, arriving in exactly perpendicular angle to surface, could cut through the links; when the mail was not riveted a well placed thrust from a spear or thin sword could penetrate, and a poleaxe or halberd blow could break through the armour, but generally mail provided excellent protection to the soldier. According to a study of skeletons found in Visby, Sweden, a majority of the skeletons showed wounds on less well protected legs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_(armour)

Actyally, by my own experience the most cumbersome and hindering part of armour are steel gauntlets... You see, with most of the other parts the most of their weight is divided quite evenly between your shoulders and waist. On the other hand the weight of the gauntlets is worn just on your hands. F.ex my gauntlets weight 1,2kg a piece; my longsword is ca 2kg (little overweighted compared to it's historical lounterparts because it's blunt training blade with ca 0,25cm thick edges). When using both gauntlets and my sword the weight in my hands is more than double the weight of the sword alone...
 
Korppis said:
Scorpion13 said:
I dont think the increasing DR piercing rule for mobs is unrealistic. There is no way, and I dont care what kind of LARPing youve done, that full plate is going to shrug off thirty guys crawling over you and whacking you with clubs. It doesnt make you Superman.

Not just larping, my main focus is historical swordmanship based on old fighting manuals.

Heavy armour like full plate or reinforced maille and padding can take quite an lots of punishment... The trick to kill armoured man is not trying to penetrate his armour but attack to the weak spot... Joints, face/visor etc.
Most of the fighting manuals of late medieval / early renesance show heavily armoured men grappling each other down and after one has been able to pin down his opponent he will finish him with dagger thrust in armpit or face.
Another option is use pollaxe, warhammer or similar heavy crushing weapon... it usually is not able to penetrate the armour but opponent inside will still feel the strokes.

Yes. This is why crushing weapons came into common usage, isnt it?

I still think theres a bit of treating symptoms, rather than the disease. Theres no point tinkering with rules in order for mooks to have some effect. This is an issue with all D20 games in the end, not just Conan. But the solution in Conan is probably easier than in other D20 games. Theres no arsenal of magical protection, no Ioun stones, no +4 cloaks. Just take stuff away from the players, or have the NPCs be tougher, so, rather than 1st or 2nd level mooks, they face 4th or 5th level henchmen. Guys walking around in full plate isnt Conan to my mind.
 
PrinceYyrkoon said:
Guys walking around in full plate isnt Conan to my mind.

Except when it is. Hour of the Dragon and the Scarlet Citadel come to mind. Guys in breastplates and plate mail abound. But of course, that was during a time of war of heavily armed and armored troops and not everyday use. :wink:

REH Hour of the Dragon said:
And while the fallen king stared with burning eyes that reflected the bitter rage and humiliation that ate his heart, the squires stripped Valannus of mail shirt, burganet and leg-pieces, and clad him in Conan's armor of black plate mail, with the vizored salade, and the dark plumes nodding over the wivern crest.
 
Seeing as how the whole concept of hitpoints is an abstraction tool, I have no problem making a character getting mobbed more dangerous to the PCs by throwing the mounting damage, attack, AP rule into my games.

Suddenly, wading into mobs of goons isnt such a good idea and Great Cleaving your way through a small army is the mark of a mighty hero instead of a low level fighter like in regular D&D.
 
Exactly.

I have no problem with PCs killing couples dozen of thug. I just want to incorporate a bit of respect. Because at some point, you happen to be surrounded by 20 Picts, and you laugh because they can damage you enough. What I want is whatever your level, when you see lots of ennemies, you'll think twice before you throw yourself in the melee.

Problem if you use higher level character and "cheat" their HP, is that player won't really know the danger before a couple round of combat. You would see a milicia of 20 guard, thinking you could take them down, before you realise you're figthing 20 6th level soldier and are getting your but kicked. This is not realist anyway. A milicia is a milicia. Milician won't be stronger when you get stronger (the 4th ed style). A typical pict barbarian is still a 1st or 2nd level barb, weither you are level 3 or 15.

So boosting the piling rule don't change the law of the world. The world remain the same, but multiple opponent just get more dangerous, and most importantly, they don't become obsolete at higher level.
 
treeplanter said:
Exactly.

I have no problem with PCs killing couples dozen of thug. I just want to incorporate a bit of respect. Because at some point, you happen to be surrounded by 20 Picts, and you laugh because they can damage you enough. What I want is whatever your level, when you see lots of ennemies, you'll think twice before you throw yourself in the melee.

Problem if you use higher level character and "cheat" their HP, is that player won't really know the danger before a couple round of combat. You would see a milicia of 20 guard, thinking you could take them down, before you realise you're figthing 20 6th level soldier and are getting your but kicked. This is not realist anyway. A milicia is a milicia. Milician won't be stronger when you get stronger (the 4th ed style). A typical pict barbarian is still a 1st or 2nd level barb, weither you are level 3 or 15.

So boosting the piling rule don't change the law of the world. The world remain the same, but multiple opponent just get more dangerous, and most importantly, they don't become obsolete at higher level.

Seriously. How in the world are you going to realistically explain a squad of 40 6th level warriors? You might find something like that on say, the Argo. 6th level means youre not exactly a dragon killer (maybe a little one) but you seen and done some real damn adventuring. Youre a distinct individual, better than most and eclipsed by mighty wizards and heroes. Theyd be the King's Royal guard, not the militia of any town in the world.
 
That's also something I don't buy - that 95% of all people are level 1-2.

In our group, we have agreed that "level 1" means an untrained fifteen year-old spotty youth who has barely come of age (as was usual in pre-modern societies).

A young adult of 18 years and reasonable professional training (whatever his profession is) would be level 3.
We also start all new characters at level 3.

Most common folk will advance very slowly in the course of their lives, maybe to level five, six tops. Thus, a "master craftsman" of 5th level can have a skill check of around +13 (8 ranks plus skill focus plus ability bonus + tools), which matches nicely the typical craft DC of 15.

Same goes for professional warriors. Level 3 is a youngster who has sort of "passed basic training", level 5-6 is a tried and proven veteran. Then there may be also warrior elites around level 8. Only named NPCs should get higher than that.

For fighting units, when I am gm-ing I like to build squads of mixed-level NPCs, for example a bunch of greenhorns (level 3), one or two more experienced "chosen men" and one leader (sergeant / decurion / first blade, level 6-8 ).
 
I have not seen much discusion of weapons in the mob. If they are militia then spears are likely. But either better or worse than that are likely to have polearms. Which in Conan seems to be a bill. Or I suppose pikes and poleaxes.

Anything less than full plate is not to hard to punch with a poleax. And its not like they are expensive.

And as far as a oeasant mob haveing polearms, almost all polearms are farm impliments with a few mods. And the farm originals are pretty bad to get whacked with.
 
Dont forget that crossbows are also a big thing with mobs. And if you add a few arbalests in there, the PCs are going to give them a lot more respect. At a whole 15sp each, its not like they are going to gather them all up to sell.

After all, you can get 8 Arbs for the price of one Broadsword.
 
Clovenhoof said:
That's also something I don't buy - that 95% of all people are level 1-2.

In our group, we have agreed that "level 1" means an untrained fifteen year-old spotty youth who has barely come of age (as was usual in pre-modern societies).

A young adult of 18 years and reasonable professional training (whatever his profession is) would be level 3.
We also start all new characters at level 3.

Most common folk will advance very slowly in the course of their lives, maybe to level five, six tops. Thus, a "master craftsman" of 5th level can have a skill check of around +13 (8 ranks plus skill focus plus ability bonus + tools), which matches nicely the typical craft DC of 15.

Same goes for professional warriors. Level 3 is a youngster who has sort of "passed basic training", level 5-6 is a tried and proven veteran. Then there may be also warrior elites around level 8. Only named NPCs should get higher than that.

For fighting units, when I am gm-ing I like to build squads of mixed-level NPCs, for example a bunch of greenhorns (level 3), one or two more experienced "chosen men" and one leader (sergeant / decurion / first blade, level 6-8 ).

The levels system is designed for varying levels of greatness and ability. Remember, D&D was designed to allow you to play heroes of stories, like Conan or Lancelot or Aragorn. Experience points come from doing great deeds, like defeating a chimera or a giant or something like that. It shouldnt come from farming or blacksmithing, mundane deeds unless youve been doing it a long time, or do it very well under various amounts of duress.

A militia man whose only fighting experience was from roughing up surly drunks wouldnt be more than a level two in my eyes. A knight who participated in various battles against mundane opponents and was victorious more often than not would be a higher level. A a barbarian who steals magic jewels, kills a giant serpent and rescues a princess from a undead sorceror would be higher than that.

But then, we're getting into the philosophy of the game rather than the rules, but I suppose something like this is bound to come up in a discussion like this. All Im saying is that having a character be able to wade through a human sea of attackers by virtue of his level and what kind of armor he is wearing, mundane armor that is, and being able to just murder them all is not only unrealistic, it goes against genre conventions.

Most people would agree that guys like Conan and Aragorn and Lancelot are epic level heroes. Yet Conan ran from the picts in Black River, despite the fact that he seems to be able to kill them almost out of hand. Aragorn ran from the orcs in Moria despite the fact that he is a 150 year old ranger with years of experience and a powerful artifact sword, and I dont remember reading any tale of Lancelot taking on an entire army by himself, despite the fact that he was the greatest fighter in the Arthurian age, which means he has some stiff competition. The only hero I can think of dong that sort of thing was Hercules. He sacked Troy practically by himself and challenged Apollo to a fist fight. The players in Conan are way different than that, and they should be. Its a different kind of setting.
 
All RPGs fall apart when used for things they are not meant for.

After all, how can there even be a city, when all the 1st level farmer Mostly fail thier proffesion rolls because they dont have enough skill points to be good farmers. SAo everybody starves.

And just think, they have to live out there with all those nasty monsters and bandits and what not that the adventurers have to battle from time to time. The farmers live out there full time.

Those guys must be like 15th level on averge. Only that does not fit the general image, so they are 1-2 level.

And why on earth would whacking a pict make you a better farmer?
 
As for how I think something like that works in d20 systems, unless there are Picts actually shooting at them while theyre trying to hoe peas, I honestly dont see how they wouldnt just be taking 20 on the rolls. I mean, theyre not doing it while a dragon is breathing fire on them. Theyre doing it on their own, out in a field in peace. Thats a lot different from trying to pick the lock on a ancient vault door to escape the lich before he Weirds you. THOSE are the types of things that call for skill rolls and whatnot.

As for how they handle mongol raiders and crap like that, well, theyd probably handle it the way real life peasants handled it: get slaughtered mercilessly.
 
Time. Yoiu simply dont have time to take 20. And no you dont have picts breathing down your neck, you have the grim reaper himself, because if you dont get harvest right, in the small amount of time available, you starve before spring. And dont forget the wolves and bears and big cats and such like that you need to fight off to protect the herds. And the odd adventurers trying to steal the women and booze.

Every year, the US Goverment publishes a list of the 10 most dangerous jobs in the USA. Soldiers, police, Firemen never make the listr. Farm workers make it every year. Farming is tough and dangerous. And at the tech level we are discussing it was much worse.

So level 1-2 makes a good game because it fits most peoples idea of how the world should work. But that doesnt make it very realistic.
 
zozotroll said:
Time. Yoiu simply dont have time to take 20. And no you dont have picts breathing down your neck, you have the grim reaper himself, because if you dont get harvest right, in the small amount of time available, you starve before spring. And dont forget the wolves and bears and big cats and such like that you need to fight off to protect the herds. And the odd adventurers trying to steal the women and booze.

Every year, the US Goverment publishes a list of the 10 most dangerous jobs in the USA. Soldiers, police, Firemen never make the listr. Farm workers make it every year. Farming is tough and dangerous. And at the tech level we are discussing it was much worse.

So level 1-2 makes a good game because it fits most peoples idea of how the world should work. But that doesnt make it very realistic.

What do you mean time? How much time do you need to plow a field? Taking 20 means you do it until you get it right. I cant imagine how you can get things like simple dirt farming wrong. Making them roll for it is kinda silly. What, if you miss it, did you accidentally sow the field with salt so that nothing will grow there again? And what kind of DC does one put on sowing a field or scything wheat? Like, 10? Maybe 12?

DC's are only really much higher than that when youre trying to make a magic amulet or forge a mighty king's sword. Baling hay doesnt rank up there. Its back breaking to be sure, and a lot of work, but not tricky.
 
Sorry, but you are totaly wrong. Farming is very difficult.Lots and lots of things to get wrong, and often you dont even know it for a few weeks, by which time it is to late.

Plow one line across a field? Sure it is easy. Do it time after time, get them straight and the right distance apart? Much harder.

It is like any other trade. To an outsider, it is always, just pound some hot metal, or just write a few lines of computer code, or just jam a few pounds of uranium togather.

Sometime, check out the failure rate of people who where not raised to to it that try to start thier own farms. Unless they are rich people that want a hobby, it is very high. And in a pre-tech society there is no school to go and learn at.
 
Cloven I handle levels just like you do. I have writen a lot of NPCs to use, generic characters from every race and class, and I always make them at level 2, 4 and 6, because I think levels 2 to 4 are very commom, easy to achieve. Levels 5 and 6 are for those that go beiong the average guy, a soldier captain, a respecte thief, and so on...

Above level 6 is for named NPCs, whit more heroic stats...

I have not seen much discusion of weapons in the mob. If they are militia then spears are likely. But either better or worse than that are likely to have polearms. Which in Conan seems to be a bill. Or I suppose pikes and poleaxes.

Anything less than full plate is not to hard to punch with a poleax. And its not like they are expensive.

And as far as a oeasant mob haveing polearms, almost all polearms are farm impliments with a few mods. And the farm originals are pretty bad to get whacked with.

I have just removed bardiche, bill and pollaxe. Those weapons don't have a Hyborian age feel, in my opinion, and they are very awkward, a bit overpower too, 2d10 damage for a very cheap weapon...

I'm adopting the pile rule boost, it will make the players think twice before jumping on a very large group...
 
Well personnally I think the vast majority of the world is between 1 and 3. And there is the rest. So for me a troops of 6th level soldiers are kind of an elite guard, like the black dragon (Black dragon are listed as 5th level soldier in the book, and they are the elite of the elite).

Of course, you'll have sergeant or capitain leading militia, picts and even elite troop. But those are a minority.

About the farming thing, I dunno, but don't forget that commoner can be higher than level 1. You could have an old 10th level farmer in a hamlet with lot of profession (farmer). Also most of the commoner (or any character living from a profession) should have the true profesional feat so, a level 1 farmer with 12 int could start with 14 rank in profession counting the background skill. Wich mean he would easily succed every basic farming attemp.
 
A 1st leveler with 14 in a skill? Explain that one. I just dont see a 1st level thief with 14 in disable devise, or spot. Andd if he cant, then how can a 1st level farmer have 14 in farm.
 
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