How to give high level PC challenge with bunch of mobs?

[treeplanter]

So the topic title is explicit. You all know that when the PC grow stronger, they tend to kill whatever low-level thug you throw at them. They are too hard to hit, the hit to hard, can have lots of damage reduction, they have bunch of powerful feat, ect. So what can you do, using flanking, pilling rule, aid another, and other feat to give high level PC a good challenge, so they will think twice before charging head down a troops of 10 1-2 levels PC?

Personnaly, one strategy I have not tried yet but I think it will work.

Have 10 2nd level soldier, leaded by a 5nd level soldier officer with heavy infantry. All of them have weapon focus, sideswinder (+2 damages when flanking) and disciple of infantry (negate Str or Dex bonus when flanking). the commander have in addition Parry, Power attack and master of infantry.

So basicly, the commander will share his parry value to the other soldier (thank to Master of infantry). Disciple of infantry result in a +5 to +7 to hit against a high-level PC, so the become quite hitable. Sideswinder give +2 damage to everyone flanking, and the Officer grant a +1 damage to him and adjacent soldier. Soldier with the lowest chance to hit (so the first 2 or 3 to attack) can use the aid another action on the Officer so he can power attack for lot of damages.

This should work well against anything save 8th level Barb or Pirate (uncanny dodge), but since Barb tend to be not to hard to hit and Pirate usually don't hit really hard once the combat start, you should be able to do lot damage to them still.

 

[Diabolus]

The old grapple pile-on usually works.

 

[Vambelte]

The most epic combat I have run so far in my Conan game was the PCs, at the 12th level at the time, against a group off Vendhyn patrolers. One of the PCs, a bandit thirst for blood, got in trouble whit a few patrolers, so one run and a few days later they had a squad of 20 mounted Vendhyan 4th level soldiers after them.

The combat was very brutal, and we had to roll it twice, since the first time the group just fought whitout giving great attention to their actions, and thus got murdered. So I gave them a chance to think on a strategy and to roll the combat again...

In the end it was very exciting, and we had just the bandit standig up, against 2 horseman. Those 2 decided to run away, and the group had to chase them down, trough the Himmeliam mountains before they got back to Vendhya.

There were 4 Vendhyan patrolers, 4th lvl soldiers, for each PC.

 

[B_Steele]

Have a look at the optional combat rules in The Warrior's Combat, particularly the section at Narrative Combat (pg. 23).

I addressed this issue directly.

-Bry

 

[treeplanter]

Have a look at the optional combat rules in The Warrior's Combat, particularly the section at Narrative Combat (pg. 23).

I addressed this issue directly.

-Bry

Yeah I use that often, but the thing is I want to be fair when a players take feat that are really good against multiples foes. So if I players have Great cleave or Whirlwind attack, I feel narative combat don't allow him to make use of feat he took for those particular situation.

 

[zozotroll]

My players are just not into the narative thing. They want to see each blow.

Trip and overrun can also work well.

 

[treeplanter]

Problem with the Grapple, trips or overrun remain the same. When a 1st or 2 level character with a crappy attack try to grapple a 10th+ level PC with +17 attack, they just won't succed. And even if they achieve it, the PC will break free easily the following round. I think you need more than that.

 

[Vambelte]

Another thing I do is construct my NPCs whit reasonable stats. Every NPC I wrote have a 16 on his main stat, whic is boosted by level, so every 6th level thief have 18 dex. They usually have a 14 too, which is his second stat, the others are crap...

But those are the mass NPCs, like the typical thief or soldier. To the named NPCs I give better stats than the PCs have.

I did that in order to the normal NPC be more tough, preventing the PCs to think they are heroes on levels above 11.

 

[Sourcerer]

preventing the PCs to think they are heroes on levels above 11.

That's just stupid.

So they begin being minor heroes when they reach 20?

 

[treeplanter]

I don't think that is stupid. I think heroes is not the right word tough.

I would say it's important the PC feel they are getting stronger, but they should NOT feel invincible.

Utterly destroying 4-5 thug, i'm fine with that (even if in real life it is a feat almost impossible to acheive.) However killing 40 without a scratch is not even close to realist. Even at very high level, any PC doing this should either fail, or be really wounded.

 

[Hervé]

I personally tend to think that Damage Reduction is one of the main problem here. The D20 system wasn't really designed for damage reducing armours (as are most level based systems, thinking of it...). Your average 14 Str/2nd Soldier mook has absolutely no chance of hurting a high level tank. Even if you use the 1 point damage minimum rule, an armoured high level fighter can still swipe an entire army... Indeed that's a bit too much, even for a Conanesque hero!

 

[treeplanter]

Agree. In our game we reduced DR by 2, but a fullplate + helm is still DR 10. Add feat like hard, hard as rock, and you'll virtually have a single high level sweeping a thousand of 2nd level. Logically, everyone would evatually fatigue, his armour would gone, or he would suffer a lucky blow.

I think you could still tear him done eventually having 7 character using the aid another action then attacking him in finesse at + 24 bonus (+14 from aid another, + 8 from piling and +2 from flanking).

But I guess in those case, you have no choice too use narrative combat. Like "After you killed tirty-some friends, a knight and his horse fall on you, and you fall unconcious".

 

[Clovenhoof]

Some thoughts based on my experience. We're level 11 atm, so not really "high level" yet, but still. We are 3 PCs, technically 1 Barb (me), one Pirate and one Pirate/Temptress.

In our group we have a kind of "gentlemen's agreement" not to use purely two-handed weapons. I.e. no Bardiches; generally nothing bigger than a War Sword (which my Barbarian uses). In return, the GM doesn't give these weapons to his mobs either. Also, Power Attack does not add double bonus on two-handed wielding.

Another important thing to note is that in our game a Threat does not have to be confirmed; it is automatically a Crit. So rolling a 20 with an Axe automatically deals triple damage, which usually forces MDS. To balance this, a failed MDS just puts you to -1HP and dying instead of -10 and dead.

In practise, our GM seldom throws lowlevel mooks at us. Typically our opposition is just 2-4 levels lower than us, using normal PC char creation rules, and the warrior ones typically have DR6. However, it normally is intended that we fight and vanquish them.
The fights usually feel very tough; losing half of our HPs is par of the course, and just two weeks ago we nearly got wiped, fighting a cursed frost-giant (level 12 or something).

So long story short: to challenge your party, don't zerg-rush them with level 1-2s. Give them something to gnaw on. Of course, mixing some 1-2s into the mobs is good for player morale, because sich tough mobs as described above will result in a rather slow kill speed, so you have to take care that it doesnt get tedious.

 

[zozotroll]

Just be careful where your mobs are. A couple of moderatly powerful monsters that do enough damage to bust up some of that armor, and then a mob that could not hurt before can do a bunch of damage.

 

[zozotroll]

Or another party of adventurers. Instead of a standard DnD kill the caster, you get kill the two handers. Refreshing to see fighters feared.

 

[Korppis]

Armours and DR has never been a big problem in my games. When my players have them they usually escape withouth serious injuries from most of the mook battles... but on the other hand Conan himself fought half of the times unarmoured so i have also thrown against them challences where heavy armour is just more of a risk than relief.

Just on last friday my players were fought against a scouting patrol of a vanir warband... they took some injuries but heavily armoured characters were more or less unharmed. On the other hand an avanlanche has blocked the pass they had planned to use. Only way to escape from the rest of the warband was 100' climb with DC that was challengin for all but the best climbers of the party. Of course the first thing they did was to throw away their armours and shields and all of the unnecessary equipment (including most of the loot they had robbed from vanirs) to get rid of ACP:s. They then tied themself on each others with ropes so that they would be able to prevent each other from falling and also make aid another -rolls to help the weaker climbers.
(I allowed each player to make aid another -actions to help climbing checks of characters that were next to them)
That all was actually quite cool and my players did enjoy it... I made them all roll first easier climbing rolls for the first part of the climb. When they were about half of their way up to the cliff the vanirs did arrive and started to shoot at them with hunting bows... There were some serious penalties for vanirs because of a range and the fact that they were shooting at targets above them but on the other hands my players werent able to dodge or parry because they were climbing. (most of the time vanirs needed to roll 19 or 20 to hit... only one of players actually was hit).
Now i ask them to have another climbing roll with DC +5 higher than before. This time they did roll poorly and 4 of them failed on their rolls. Luckily two guys who did made their rolls were strongest of the group and were able to hang on a cliff and prevent them all to fall.
After they had finally made it to the top of a cliff they did turn the tables by throwing some huge boulders down on those vanirs. Now, they are on the mountains between Asgard and Vanaheim withouth any armour until they are able to steal or loot some or find a town or village where they can buy new armours.

Of course it makes this all easier that my players are quite OK with the idea that they might have to abandon their equipment and/or ill-gained loot now and then to be able to escape alive.

 

[Sourcerer]

A linear or even faster growth of individual power with the character level is a common trait of level based roleplaying games.
That's a means to enable a heroic progression

Turning around and claiming this a disadvantage doesn't make to much sense.
A high level character is supposed to defeat opponents that a low level character (nearly) dies looking at.

The logical conclusion of this is that a large group of low level characters is not a great challenge (if any at all) for a high level character.

This is even more apparent in D&D3/3.5 where an opponent of level X is an equivalent challenge as 10-12 opponents of level X-7.
For even lower levels there isn't even a rule, as such battles aren't compensable by quantity.

In Conan this progression is less extreme due to the lack of magic items, but the result is the same: low level characters aren't a challenge.
Trying to fix it in seems wrong to me.

This doesn't mean that a high level character can't be defeated by low level characters.
Even if they attack without a strategy or cooperation, each single attack has a chance of at least 5% to hit and to inflict a little damage.
Given enough opponents this will tear down any high level character.

This brings me to Damage Reduction.
I started roleplaying with a system where armor reduced the damage instead of making it harder to be hit at all.
And for me, this makes a lot more sense and has always been my main concern with D&D.
The idea of armor is to mitigate damage from hits and a RPG should be accordingly (ymmv).

Obviously it is not easy to hurt someone in fullplate and helment.
So either you manage to bypass the armor or pierce it - Conan offers both possibilities.
Even a DR of 12 is piercable by a first level character with an appropriate weapon.
To bypass this amount of armor you will need considerable boni, be flanking or otherwise prevent the tin can from dodging or parrying.
Both not easy but doable.

 

[Sourcerer]

One more thing regarding being heroic or high level:

Master-words and signs summons up a demon lord and forces it to instruct the sorcerer in the master-words and signs by which almost any entity ranked below it can be compelled. The sorcerer is able to compel the demon lord by demonstrating his superior magical prowess over it.

Only fairly high-powered sorcerers can learn this spell

So much for wussy level 12 characters.

 

[Hervé]

From Korppis examplle, it looks like they just begun Betrayer of Asgard! 8)

When I ran this adventure, most of my players were lightly armoured at best, save the Aquilonian Soldier, played by one of those guys who give D20 a bad name, exploiting the rules to the limit.

He tried to convince me than if he put his armour off and carried it with him and the end of a rope, he won't get any penalties for climbing the cliff as he wasn't exceeding his encumbrance value! Another gap in the rules that allows munchkin players to do absurd things...

I spent some time to have him describe how his character would climb a 100' frozen climb wielding a two handed sword (What else?...:roll and carrying a full scale mail, while he was still trying to prove the rules allowed it. Bored by the situation and his whining, I finally allowed them to drag the armour tied in a blanket from the top a the cliff.

Strangely, he wasn't invited for the next sessions...

 

[Sourcerer]

He tried to convince me than if he put his armour off and carried it with him and the end of a rope, he won't get any penalties for climbing the cliff as he wasn't exceeding his encumbrance value! Another gap in the rules that allows munchkin players to do absurd things...

I'm not really convinced that this is a gap in the rules.

When you take off armour and carry it in a backpack or otherwise it's only cargo and doesn't encumber more than other equipment.

Maybe the rules for encumbrance and it's effect on climbing are not too restrictive, but how few should a character be allowed to carry?
For a strong character a Light Load just means easily carrying a suit of armour.