How far did the First Imperium get with J1?

[EDG]

A bit of an obscure question, yes. But on a crazy whim I just spent a couple of hours colouring in every system on printouts of the AotI pdf that could be reached by J1 from Vland, so someone darn well ought to know about it .

The answer is somewhat surprising: 1,014 systems.

That's right, there are 1,014 systems that can be linked to by J1 from Vland. That's a hell of a Main.

The spinward border of the J1 First Imperium is largely defined by the rift. The "J1 VI" takes up most of the Vland sector (top right, bottom right, and bottom left), and the middle-left and bottom-left of neighbouring Lishun to trailing. From Vland it then goes through the bottom-right of Corridor to spinward and then diagonally from top right of Gushemege to bottom left of Gushemege, and then it pokes into the bottom right of Reft and a bit of the top right of Verge (and two worlds in the extreme top-left Ilelish).

This is roughly what it looks like (someday I may try and generate a big PDF map of it, if only so I can get rid of this massive stuck together mass of printouts on my desk...)

One thing that's amusing (that you can't see at this scale) is that there's a world about 6 pc coreward of Vland that (because of the layout of systems) is only reachable by about 56 J1 jumps following the main to Lishun and looping back again. But when the Vilani discover J2, they can use a system that lies on its own between that one and Vland... and can get there in three jumps. (incidentally, J2 makes the First Imperium a LOT bigger. I'm not going to draw it out, but suddenly there's a hell of a lot more accessible systems, there's not many that need J3).

Another amusing thing is that within the enclosed region shown on the map above, there are just two systems that are inaccessible because they are J2 from all the other worlds around them. Every single other system in that volume is J1 from another one within it.

So the moral of the story is that the Vilani could cover a LOT of worlds on J1 (1,014, to be precise), without needing to looking for substellar bodies in empty hexes. And if they did use a handful of them to jump a few gaps then obviously that area on the map that they can cover can become a lot bigger...

And obviously on J2 that are would expand a lot further (I think actually with J3 the only chokepoints would be the Rifts. With J4+ you're not really "unlocking" any more previously inaccessible systems in a non-rift sector).

 

[EDG]

Given that this is probably more of interest to those who use SJG's GT:Interstellar Wars book, I'll continue the discussion over on their boards.

But if anyone wants to talk about it here, do feel free to do so .

 

[captainjack23]

Given that this is probably more of interest to those who use SJG's GT:Interstellar Wars book, I'll continue the discussion over on their boards.

But if anyone wants to talk about it here, do feel free to do so .

Heh. All I'll do is note that this is in fact a map of how far they could have gotten with jump 1. Not a map of where they did go with jump 1. Which is what is causing the problems on the other thread.

But, its a great map. thanks.

 

[tjoneslo]

I'll post two additional maps, showing that this work has been done before.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ngc5139/IISS/index.html

This map shows not only the Viliani main, but a number of other mains in and around the Third Imperium. While it may require some J1+J1 jumps to reach the Genoee, it doesn't require many.


http://home.earthlink.net/~ngc5139/IISS/FSreport.html

This map shows the (theoretical) coreward extents of the Vilani and their First Imperium. This is not a canon map.

 

[EDG]

I'll post two additional maps, showing that this work has been done before.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ngc5139/IISS/index.html

Nuts, and here I thought I was treading new ground!

Though TBH I have no idea what that first link is supposed to show, I can see the Vilani J1 links as a big pink area but I have no idea what all the colours are supposed to mean. Or is that just to distinguish different mains?

 

[EDG]

Heh. All I'll do is note that this is in fact a map of how far they could have gotten with jump 1. Not a map of where they did go with jump 1. Which is what is causing the problems on the other thread.

But, its a great map. thanks.

They may not have filled that entire space with the J1 First Imperium, but if they couldn't get beyond that without empty hex jumps then it does show the maximum possible extent of the J1 First Imperium. Which is why I did the map in the first place.

 

[tjoneslo]

Though TBH I have no idea what that first link is supposed to show, I can see the Vilani J1 links as a big pink area but I have no idea what all the colours are supposed to mean. Or is that just to distinguish different mains?

It is, as far as I've been able to establish, just to distinguish the different mains.

It also shows that with less than a dozen "rogue" worlds or brown dwarf stars, the Vilani would be capable of covering much of their First Imperium area, and the J2 is required to back-fill. It may explain why they stopped expanding. Their Imperium extends around, though they have no control over, as many or more systems than control. There are barbarians within the empire.

 

[captainjack23]

Heh. All I'll do is note that this is in fact a map of how far they could have gotten with jump 1. Not a map of where they did go with jump 1. Which is what is causing the problems on the other thread.

But, its a great map. thanks.

They may not have filled that entire space with the J1 First Imperium, but if they couldn't get beyond that without empty hex jumps then it does show the maximum possible extent of the J1 First Imperium. Which is why I did the map in the first place.

Well, yes, I'm with you on that - but as we now see, the J1 empire did go places that require going off the mains -so the mechanism of how they exceeded your map is what is in question.

Remember -if empty hex jumping is essentially a discover once type of travel -then the Vilanii had it for the interstellar wars -where they had jump 2 ships. Jump 2 ships have a range of 4 hexes with one empty jump - and the whole structure of the war fails.

 

[DPSteve]

Heh. All I'll do is note that this is in fact a map of how far they could have gotten with jump 1. Not a map of where they did go with jump 1. Which is what is causing the problems on the other thread.

But, its a great map. thanks.

They may not have filled that entire space with the J1 First Imperium, but if they couldn't get beyond that without empty hex jumps then it does show the maximum possible extent of the J1 First Imperium. Which is why I did the map in the first place.

Well, yes, I'm with you on that - but as we now see, the J1 empire did go places that require going off the mains -so the mechanism of how they exceeded your map is what is in question.

Remember -if empty hex jumping is essentially a discover once type of travel -then the Vilanii had it for the interstellar wars -where they had jump 2 ships. Jump 2 ships have a range of 4 hexes with one empty jump - and the whole structure of the war fails.

I'm not even going to try to claim to be a 'cannonologist', but something that strikes me from reading GT:IW was that the Vilani are a highly, highly ritualistic people at the height of the 1st Imperium. How long after the expansion of the 1st Imperium is the 1IW?

Let's assume that they did indeed use empty hex jump technology to expand in the beginning. Let us also assume that this technique is inherently dangerous (much higher chance of a mis-jump). Once Jump-2 is available one can imagine that it would be more cost effective in terms of money (lost ships and cargo) and lives to rely on Jump-2 ships and avoid using substellar jumps. Over time the knowledge isn't necessarily lost but it is entirely plausible that after so many centuries of disuse that it would not register with most people that this is possible or that it had been done. Sure, if someone thought to check the archives of history then they would have seen that it was done in the days of yester-yore. However, that would require someone to remember that it HAD been done, or even conceive of the idea in the first place.

To give a (admittedly poor) example: we know that the Romans used a Phalanx formation using shields and spears. How likely is it that people, outside of a history buff/aficionado, would think of that as a solution to a problem? Keeping in mind that our society promotes learning about the past and applying it to the present. I imagine the Vilani were much less inclined, being a people of the mind that "if it works, why fix it". The "fixed" the issue with sub-stellar jumps with Jump 2 technology. The "problem" being "fixed" was an unacceptably high loss ratio.

Also, to be fair, it is quite likely that some Vilani DID use substellar jumps towards the end of the 1IW. However, because Vilani society was so segregated and bureaucratic that knowledge was often not passed along. So, one corporation or military section might know it's possible, but due to internal friction (well documented that this is part of the cause of their fall) and bureaucratic red tape, most of the rest of the Vilani were unawares.

I think part of the issue is that you're seeing the ability (and subsequent knowledge) to be ubiquitous among all groups. That's not necessarily the case, especially when different factions are vying for favor. Knowledge is power, and knowledge is an ace card when trying to compete with your fellows for the same thing. Any perceived edge will be kept unless absolutely necessary.

To summarize the wall of text:
I believe the Vilani used substellar jump points to first expand. I believe these were abandoned with the advent of jump 2 technology due to the high risk (I assume is) associated with substellar jumps.
By the time of the 1IW the Vilani society was fractured. The Vilani also did not view the Terrans as a threat until much later in the war.
By the time the Vilani started scrambling to address the issue it was too late. Some factions of the Vilani may have started using substellar jumps again but the use was not common place nor shared with other factions.

Terrans, on the other hand, are constantly trying to find new ways to do things. This is why their TL eventually outstripped the Vilani. Starting with only J1 technology they would, by necessity, be forced into substellar jumps much as the early Vilani were. The difference comes from the Terrans being much more enterprising. Additionally, Terran culture was still relatively fresh from their own major conflicts; Terran military was trained to think outside the box.

 

[simonh]

Knowledge is power, and knowledge is an ace card when trying to compete with your fellows for the same thing. Any perceived edge will be kept unless absolutely necessary.

That's all very reasonably argued. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if some Vilani organizations maintained secret way stations at calibration points to enable them to short-circuit the official and public communications systems. This would be an incredibly valuable political tool enabling the ruling elite to get information weeks, or even months in advance of everyone else. in fact it would be so valuable they may well be prepared to sacrifice the use of such technology by the military in order to keep their advantage secret. History is full of examples of this kind of narrow minded advantage seeking.

Simon Hibbs

 

[EDG]

Well, yes, I'm with you on that - but as we now see, the J1 empire did go places that require going off the mains

I agree with that observation.

Remember -if empty hex jumping is essentially a discover once type of travel -then the Vilanii had it for the interstellar wars -where they had jump 2 ships. Jump 2 ships have a range of 4 hexes with one empty jump - and the whole structure of the war fails.

Right, but we've already established that it's not a "discover once" type of travel. We know that empty hex jumps weren't possible in the IW era - you needed a mass to arrive at in the destination hex (or maybe to jump FROM in the departure hex, as Aramis suggested). And as I said, there's any number of reasons why the Vilani didn't look for (or weren't successful in finding) any substellar objects in the empty hexes around Sol - the Terrans could have sabotaged their attempts, or the Vilani had theirs hands too full dealing with the upstarts, or they just didn't feel the need to look because of hubris, or were so conservatively-minded that it didn't even occur to them to look.

In the millennia prior to that when they had J1 it stands to reason that the Vilani needed to locate substellar objects in those empty hexes to bridge those J2 gaps. But we know that those objects are very difficult to find. You simply do not have an "automatic success" in finding these objects if you look for them - even if you spend ages looking and send out loads of probes, it's more often than not a luck if you find them or not.

It is vastly more accurate to say that while every empty hex has the potential to be a jump link, very few of them actually are known to have those links. Many might not have BDs in them, they might just have small rogue planets which don't emit IR that are nigh impossible to detect. And those BDs that are there are more likely to be 'old and cold' than not, and thus harder to detect. And occasionally an empty hex might actually BE empty.

So when they are found, knowledge of them is going to be jealously guarded, primarily by the military or possibly the bigger megacorps that can afford the time and effort to look (and you can bet they won't share those links with anyone). The only exceptions will be if they are the only way to get to a new J1 main, or if it's in a seriously major strategic spot that'll shave months off the travel time otherwise. But otherwise people really aren't going to look for ways to jump over every single J2 gap in the 1I - just the important ones.

 

[EDG]

OK, maybe it'll be useful if someone (not me!) posts a list of all the homeworlds known to have been contacted by the Vilani during their J1 days, and then we can track those down and see just how many links we need. captainjack has already started on that (and will hopefully post the results here).

And if you can post a canon reference to the race and their homeworld location and First Contact that'd be great too.

 

[EDG]

In fact, I picked up the GT:IW book today and it has a few things to say on the subject:

1) Yes, the Terrans did find a jump point (a rogue planet) between Terra and Barnard that was used to get there and back on their first interstellar jump. And yes, it was hard to find. And no, it's not on the map.

2) The earliest Vilani explorers were "bold". They weren't the dull, stagnant, unimaginative bunch that we're familiar with of later years - so they most likely had the gumption and the adaptability to look for substellar bodies to bridge the gaps. However, unlike for the terrans, it's not explicitly mentioned that they did - but given that it was several thousand years before the Vilani met the Terrans they must have done it that way.

3) There's a honking great text box on page 171 that says "neither Terrans nor Vilani can plan a jump that starts or ends in deep interstellar space, far away from... massive objects". It also says that the Terrans can find and use 'jump points' (substellar objects in empty hexes), but the Vilani haven't looked for them for centuries and hardly use them. This may be in part down to their use of fixed 'jump tapes' rather than the on-the-fly calculations that the Terrans do. And it also says that known 'jump points' are rare.

So there you have it. That's the canon on the subject for the IW era, like it or not.

 

[EDG]

GT:IW says mentions the following races as "Subject Races" of the Vilani Imperium (or at least that the Vilani had contacted during the 1I era). I'm assuming that the locations etc are canonical given these are mostly pre-GURPS Traveller races:

Minor human:
Anakundu (GT:IW, Mikadira sector (a.k.a Old Expanses))
Azhanti (GT:H, minor human, Antares sector, 2315)
Answerin (GT:IW, Vland sector, 0431)
Geonee (GT:IW, Massilia sector, 1430)
Suerrat (GT:IW, Ilelish sector, 2907)
Darmine (GT:IW, Zarushagaar sector, 2630?. Mentioned on p39 of GT:IW, but that's all there is on them... Apparently in Challenge 75?)
Irhadre (GT:Humaniti, Lishun sector, 0935)
Luriani (GT:H, Ley sector, 0821)
Sylean (GT:H, Core sector, 2118)

Minor Aliens:
Dishaan (GT:IW, no other info, possibly Zarushagaar 2325?)
[Nugirii (Droyne)]
Vegan (GT:IW/GT:RoF, Solomani Rim sector, 1717)
Ael Yael (GT:AR4, Gushemege, 0437)
Bwaps (GT:AR4/GT:IW, Empty Quarter, 0426)
Githiaskio (GT:AR4, Antares, 2405, mentioned as being within 1I borders)
Jgd-Il-Jagd (GT:AR4, Lishun, 2307)

 

[EDG]

The Traveller Wiki says that the Vilani invented J1 in -9235, and J2 in -5430, and then started the Consolidation Wars in -5400. The Vilani first first met the Terrans in -2421 (who had discovered J1 ten years earlier in -2431), the first IW started in -2404 (after which the Terrans discovered J2), and then the Terrans discovered J3 around -2280.

It's probably safe to assume that the Vilani had 'forgotten' how to find substellar objects by the time they reached Terra, given their main expansion phase had been over for at least 3000 years - by the time they found the Terrans they were stuck in the rut of using their fixed 'jump tapes'.

 

[captainjack23]

OK, maybe it'll be useful if someone (not me!) posts a list of all the homeworlds known to have been contacted by the Vilani during their J1 days, and then we can track those down and see just how many links we need. captainjack has already started on that (and will hopefully post the results here).

And if you can post a canon reference to the race and their homeworld location and First Contact that'd be great too.

Agggg. If I dont finish this, feel free to copy it off the other thread -I'm having an episode of life...off of the internet life, that is.. :?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, I just took a short break and checked out the homeworld of the Suerrat -another race contacted well before J2...Illish/Illish 2907 -

It is in fact also inaccessable by continuous star to star jumps.
I also note that a waypoint allowing one to get to Illish from Vland would also open up trade with not only an advanced major race (in space longer than the vilanii, but non-jump only) but a main with about 40 planets. Seems woth an investment, says I......
_________________
Captainjack23, KOD
Marquis d'Remulak, Sol 1833




Bawapakerwa-a-a-awapawab (aka Bwaps, aka Newts), homeworld at to Marhaban /Empty Quarter 0425) are also inaccessable by Jump 1. In this case LOTS of empty hexe gaps have to be crossed to get there - its in a fairly sparse area. I stopped counting at four.

They, too, were contacted well before J2.
_________________
Captainjack23, KOD
Marquis d'Remulak, Sol 1833

The Dishaan (Proalan/Zarushagar 2325)homeworld also cannot be reached by Jump 1 star to star links from Vland.

Thats Four for four thus far- (Genoee, Suerrat, Bwap and Dishaan) all known to have been contacted before Jump 2, and all needing either Jump 2 or empty hex jumps. So, a minimum THUS far, of seven waypoints to be found (remember, The bwaps need at least four by themselves) . And at least one large insular main attached to the Suerrat.
_________________
Captainjack23, KOD
Marquis d'Remulak, Sol 1833


The Vegans look to be connected via lots of J1 routes -allthough I do note that they weren't contacted by the Vilanii till after they had gotten the vilanii J1 drive from a third party.


The Answerin are connected, though by a very sinuous and long J1 connection (47 jumps, give or take) .

That got me looking at vland itself ....Turns out it is almost insular -exactly ONE hex -Kha /Vland 1820 allows the Vilanii to get out of a (give or take) 23 planet group and expand out to the noted 1100 worlds viacontinuous J1 routes. Getting to corward is truly epic, having to literally navigate starting rimward, and all the way around the vilani home area until one is finally pointing in the right direction. About 3-4 times the distance from "crow flies" as it were.

I'm guessing that this layout and the possibility of blockade at the choke point (actually after that one, at Kha, there are two more before one "breaks out") they'd put some effort into finding waypoints; for trade efficiency, if nothing else......BUT, yes, that is an UOAF, so take it as conjectural.
_________________
Captainjack23, KOD
Marquis d'Remulak, Sol 1833


thats the lot thus far I think.

 

[AKAramis]

EDG: GT__ isn't canon. GTIW is (rightly) lambasted for it's divergence from other materials.

So we need to find out if there is GDW or IG material on the matter.
We have massive reference that it's not difficult to make deep space jumps, in that civilians do so without a hitch in The Traveller Adventure.

I'll see if I can find my copy of AM Solomani and Supp10: Solomani Rim.

 

[EDG]

EDG: GT__ isn't canon. GTIW is (rightly) lambasted for it's divergence from other materials.

Uh-huh. Lambasted by who exactly? Sorry, but I'm not ignoring a massive source of information from an official Traveller publisher just because a few uppity GURPS-hating grognards on CotI or the TML decided it wasn't canon.

If you want to argue that GT isn't canon then do it elsewhere. It's more detailed and more recent than any other official source of material, and it covers the exact period of time we're looking at here. And what's more it doesn't actually seem to contradict anything written about the subject elsewhere.

We have massive reference that it's not difficult to make deep space jumps, in that civilians do so without a hitch in The Traveller Adventure.

Well, unless the Traveller Adventure was set in the IW era, there's nothing stopping them from doing a deep space jump - so I'm not sure why you use that to claim that GT is wrong on the matter.

Apparently deep space jumps were first used in the Aslan Border Wars, which took place between the years -1120 and +380. That's way after the IWs and the First Imperium, and way before the Traveller Adventure.

I'll see if I can find my copy of AM Solomani and Supp10: Solomani Rim.

I've looked in them, and they don't contradict GT:IW (in fact, they have hardly any detail at all). So if GT:IW is "wrong", then they're just as incorrect.

 

[-Daniel-]

I have to wonder why would you say GT is not canon?

Didn't they have the right to publish materials for the OTU?

Seems to me, if they had the right to publish and Marc did not stop it, then it is as much canon as any other "version" would be.

Daniel

 

[AKAramis]

AM6: Solomani, page 4, mentions an intermediate stopover point.

"It took several years before a US Space Force team based on Luna tried a mission which, in several trips, established an intermediate stopover and refueling point about one parsec out. For various scientific reasons, the mission was to Barnard's Star instead of Alpha Centauri. They set out in 2096 and came back less than a year later."
(bold mine.)

It goes on to note first contact, and that by 2116 colonies existed in both Barnard's and Alpha Centauri.

Note also the Barnard's is J2 from ANYTHING. So, by terran contact double jumping was known to Terran using a refueling base.

GTIW expands this to be something else; True canon merely says they established a refuelling point. Without the GTIW bovine feces about gravity wells being required, it makes the most sense that the establishement is a station, probably big tanks and something akin to Mir.

Given that the travel time is less than a month... it's indicative that
(1) canon is severely flawed by not discussing the stopover
(2) the trip spent an extensive amount of time at Barnard's
&
(3) the Timeline in AM6 is extremely "loose"

==========
It looks like a calibration point to me, not a substellar object. Established being the key word. It's vague, and can mean built in deep space, built on a floating rock, or even just Jump two ships out, jump one back. Rinse and repeat.

Barnard's is moving rather fast, towards us, so significant amounts of time probably were spent matching vector, given Marc's JTAS article on Jump Space. But that still leaves a probably several month on-station at Barnard's.

Damned sloppy.