Garnfellow
Banded Mongoose
Awesome! Thanks for this.
The Deep and the Dark - on PDF and Pre-Order
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Seffix
Cosmic Mongoose
Having just completed my read-through of The Deep and the Dark, I wish to agrre with @GabrielGABFonseca and say that this is outstanding in the annals of sector guidebooks! Thank you, @Garnfellow and all the people who edited, formatted, and helped make this what it is!
The rough guides to how the different larger polities (Confederation, Hierate, & Imperium) work on an operational level (e.g. What do nobles do? How do clans work with each other) actually helped me clear up some questions I did not realize that I had.
The astrographic information was also nice, and I liked the consistency. Knowing what people call the local clusters, etc. adds to the feel of the place as far as star-faring Travellers are concerned, and knowing the high tech levels and populations in a subsector grants insight into who the dominant cultures in the area might be.
I liked the front-loaded chapter on Aliens rather than having them placed in their home sector, on the other hand, I prefer the "beasts" to be described in proximity to the entries on the worlds they are from since they are less likely to be found on other worlds. On the other other hand, if there are beasts that are common throughout a region, I think it would make sense to have them described at the head of the region. On the other hand, this makes for more work in layout, so it's up to you if it's really worth it.
Similarly, I also appreciated having the names of important people (higher nobles and such) and groups as well as brief descriptions to give some insight into how they might act and interact. These are useful, but not too constraining.
Aaand, my biggest issue is that I would pronounce the Aslan names differently, but then I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to pronounce Aslan, Vargr, Gaelic, etc. words...
Thank you again--
The rough guides to how the different larger polities (Confederation, Hierate, & Imperium) work on an operational level (e.g. What do nobles do? How do clans work with each other) actually helped me clear up some questions I did not realize that I had.
The astrographic information was also nice, and I liked the consistency. Knowing what people call the local clusters, etc. adds to the feel of the place as far as star-faring Travellers are concerned, and knowing the high tech levels and populations in a subsector grants insight into who the dominant cultures in the area might be.
I liked the front-loaded chapter on Aliens rather than having them placed in their home sector, on the other hand, I prefer the "beasts" to be described in proximity to the entries on the worlds they are from since they are less likely to be found on other worlds. On the other other hand, if there are beasts that are common throughout a region, I think it would make sense to have them described at the head of the region. On the other hand, this makes for more work in layout, so it's up to you if it's really worth it.
Similarly, I also appreciated having the names of important people (higher nobles and such) and groups as well as brief descriptions to give some insight into how they might act and interact. These are useful, but not too constraining.
Aaand, my biggest issue is that I would pronounce the Aslan names differently, but then I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to pronounce Aslan, Vargr, Gaelic, etc. words...
Thank you again--
Garnfellow
Banded Mongoose
Thanks so much for the kind words: this was a very fun and challenging project to work on. Of course, I could only do it by standing on the shoulders of Giants. A lot of good work had been done on these sectors (https://greatdungeonnorth.blogspot.com/2023/12/the-deep-and-dark.html) that is well worth checking out.
Garnfellow
Banded Mongoose
Trokh words are really hard -- sometimes they look cool but are like marbles in the mouth. If you have an alternate pronunciation -- particularly one that is easier for a human from 21st century Terra, I'm all ears.
At one point I had developed "Galangicized" names for some of the big clans: Yearly, Kaukle, Soso, Trelly, Rashes, etc. but I could not in good conscience publicize those and get unsuspecting Travellers killed in unnecessary duels with Aslan. They are a proud and exceedingly touchy people.
G'Naakbusters
Cosmic Mongoose
It's one of the wonderful-yet-also-frustrating things about Traveller; the Cat People, Dog People, and Horse People have languages that really sound fitting for cats, dogs, and horses. I wouldn't have it any other way, but admittedly it causes a fair few headaches.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The monkey people have their own language too, as do the ape people.
Yup, by the 57th century there will only be three languages across human space, Vilani, Zhodani and English.
At no time in their 300,000 year history did the Vilani or Zhodani have more than one language.
You can probably tell by now I consider this to be utter tosh.
The cat people are not and never have been related to Terran cats, nor are they Kzinti or Kilrathi knock offs.
The dog people were uplifted from wolves thousands of years before dogs were selectively bred.
The horse people are not even similar to horses, but I am told they taste like filet mignon...
Yup, by the 57th century there will only be three languages across human space, Vilani, Zhodani and English.
At no time in their 300,000 year history did the Vilani or Zhodani have more than one language.
You can probably tell by now I consider this to be utter tosh.
The cat people are not and never have been related to Terran cats, nor are they Kzinti or Kilrathi knock offs.
The dog people were uplifted from wolves thousands of years before dogs were selectively bred.
The horse people are not even similar to horses, but I am told they taste like filet mignon...
The single language thing is obviously nonsense. I just assume it is there because dealing with languages in games is a PITA. IRL, something like 60 to 70% of the Earth's population is multilingual. But approximately 99.9% of TTRPGs are sucktastic at modelling language facility in characters.
Basically, every Imperial Traveller should speak Galanglic, Vilani, and maybe some language from their homeworld (which may be a derivative of one of those two or something completely different). That level of language fluency is essentially normative on Earth (except in the US
). Speaking more than 2 or 3 languages competently starts to get rare.
But... future-techers probably have VR or hypno learning, a range of translation programs that are actually pretty good, and lots of other features to make getting overly focused on language *in play* not usually useful.
Basically, every Imperial Traveller should speak Galanglic, Vilani, and maybe some language from their homeworld (which may be a derivative of one of those two or something completely different). That level of language fluency is essentially normative on Earth (except in the US
). Speaking more than 2 or 3 languages competently starts to get rare.But... future-techers probably have VR or hypno learning, a range of translation programs that are actually pretty good, and lots of other features to make getting overly focused on language *in play* not usually useful.
G'Naakbusters
Cosmic Mongoose
When any source goes into detail on language in the setting it's pretty much always more realistic than the broad, initial presentation. There's usually acknowledgment of pidgin languages, local variants, etc. I love the fictional language worldbuilding in Traveller (and other settings) -- I've been cheerfully adding to the Languages category on the wiki for some time -- and I do think there's a generally good attempt to balance realistic linguistic diversity with game mechanics requiring simplification. We can assume that various Zhodani worlds and cultural blocs have their own languages, or have blended them with Oynprith or Vlazhdumecta or whathaveyou, but that pretty much everyone has at least basic fluency in the language popularly called "Zdetl", for convenience of interstellar trade and governance. Even then, the form they speak at home is probably different from the form they use to speak to outsiders. Even the Droyne, who all share a ritual formal language via implicit psionic coherence explicitly also have widely varying languages in normal use, and it's canonical too that -- for example -- the average Hive Federation non-Hiver citizen doesn't speak the trade language called "Gurvin" as such, but rather a blend of standard Gurvin, Ithklur languages, and local, native tongues.
Anstett
Cosmic Mongoose
This is where a VTT really helps. Being able to use many different font choices for different languages helps highlight the differences. Then being able to have those languages only show to those with the correct language skill. Anyone else just sees gibberish in the chat.
Here is how I have implemented that.
For Traveller and the idea of a 'babble fish/universal translator' it makes it less useful. I am exploring the dialect idea of just how different would they be from the main language. Hard enough for English speakers to understand all the various types sometimes. What is the remove of understanding from System to System?
Working on this as my baseline to start.
Here is how I have implemented that.
For Traveller and the idea of a 'babble fish/universal translator' it makes it less useful. I am exploring the dialect idea of just how different would they be from the main language. Hard enough for English speakers to understand all the various types sometimes. What is the remove of understanding from System to System?
Working on this as my baseline to start.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Seffix
Cosmic Mongoose
Hah! I have spent a significant portion of my life playing with phonetics and getting my vocal apparatus to consistently produce sounds that no conventional American knows exist. Does that mean I can pronounce Trokh and Gvegh words the way Aslan and Vargr pronounce them as described in the first Alien Modules? Not even close.
It just means that whenever I see one of those words, I pause down and try to work out how I will say it if I have to use it in game, not that my players would be able to reproduce it, so it is more thespian artifice and anything meaningful. And it slows down my reading speed.
TLDR: Nah. I'm just crazy and easily distracted by phonetics, and wanted to present the semblance of a criticism for the book.
Hi all, the PDF has now been updated on our website, enjoy
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
... TELL OUR ENEMIES THEY MAY TAKE OUR WIVES, BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEHOLDS !!!
G'Naakbusters
Cosmic Mongoose
You know that one world in Afawahisa mentioned in The Great Rift, the one on which the local Aslan have become ultra-content and entirely peaceful, and it creeps the other Aslan out that they don't go anywhere near that planet, lest it somehow happen to them too? I wonder if that's because they realised that they cared.
collins355
Banded Mongoose
Having been a fan of the Deep since the Keith days, and having fought several mercenary campaigns involving the Caledon Highlanders using miniature figures and wargames rules, I wonder about Garnfellow's thoughts on Aslan tech levels over the period from the start of the Border Wars on -1082 through to the Third Imperium era. It always seemed one of the great unexplored bits of the lore. For example in "The Deep and the Dark" on page 8 it is mentioned that the clans achieved "technological parity" with the humans - did they, and what was that TL?
On page 9 we're told that most humans in the Deep had gone back to TL9/Jump-1 by -900. What was the Aslan TL? (and most importantly, that of the Hrasua?)
And by -600? and by -300?
On page 9 we're told that most humans in the Deep had gone back to TL9/Jump-1 by -900. What was the Aslan TL? (and most importantly, that of the Hrasua?)
And by -600? and by -300?
Garnfellow
Banded Mongoose
Here's an early timeline of tech level in the region that I established to try and keep things straight. The great difficulty is keeping in mind that both the different human populations in the Lions Mane and the Aslan from different clans likely had a substantial spread in tech levels, meaning generalisations are tricky.
The Tlaukhu members, for example, tend to hoard any tech advantages as long as possible, and this effect trickles down. In general, humans in this region of space maintained small islands of stellar tech, aided by association with Aslan -- so they never fell as hard during Long Night as populations in other sectors.
Somewhere I have a much longer and more detailed bible that might have superseded some of this information, but it's probably pretty close to this table. In -900 the Hrasua were probably at TL10 and beating up on human worlds fallen to TL9, though there were likely human worlds with TL10 or even TL11.
The Tlaukhu members, for example, tend to hoard any tech advantages as long as possible, and this effect trickles down. In general, humans in this region of space maintained small islands of stellar tech, aided by association with Aslan -- so they never fell as hard during Long Night as populations in other sectors.
| Year (IY) | Aslan TL | Human TL | Notes |
| -2000 | 7 (max 9) | 12 (max 13) | Aslan largely at TL7 but with J-1 technology. While the Terran Confederation reached limited TL13, this was not common for humans in Aslan space. |
| -1700 | 8 (max 10) | 12 (max 12) | Aslan at TL8 but with J-2 technology. Begin trading with trailing worlds, traveling as far as the Solomani Rim. |
| -1500 | 8 (max 10) | 11 (max 12) | Twilight ends and Long Night begins for Humans in the Rim. Aslan Age of Expansion underway. |
| -1400 | 9 (max 10) | 10 (max 12) | Reavers take a toll on interstellar commerce |
| -1100 | 10 (max 10) | 10 (max 11) | Parity allows for start of border wars. Human-Aslan trade stops. Aslan advance spinward through Dark Nebula |
| -800 | 10 (max 10) | 9 (max 11) | Superior human numbers and organization hold out. Old Earth Union sends occasional expeditions to support Solomani. Aslan begin encroaching into the Deep and trailing Dark Nebula |
| -500 | 10 (max 10) | 9 (max 10) | Border wars start to sap human capabilities. Aslan with solid footholds in trailing Dark Nebula and the Deep, raiding Daibei and Magyar. After -575 the Old Earth Union provides little support. Pace of Aslan expansion begins to slow just as Aslan gain the upper hand. |
| -200 | 10 (max 11) | 8 (max 10) | Only a few powerful pocket empires in Magyar retain interstellar ships. Internal pressure within the Hierate impedes Aslan progress. |
| 100 | 10 (max 11) | 9 (max 11) | Renewed contact with the Imperium and revived Rim states spur human tech advances. Combined with Aslan distraction by Cultural Purge leads to Treaty of Dark Nebula with Magyar states in 212. |
| 400 | 11 (max 11) | 10 (max 11) | Entrance of the TL12 Imperium, Old Earth Union into the region leads to the Peace of Ftahalr (380) |
| 704 | 11 (max 11) | 11 (max 12) | Solomani Autonomous Region |
| 832 | 11 (max 12) | 12 (max 13) | War of Kimson’s Stand |
| 871 | 12 (max 13) | 13 (max 14) | Solomani Confederation |
| 1002 | 13 (max 14) | 13 (max 14) | End of Rim War, Confederation begin encroaching on neutral space |
Somewhere I have a much longer and more detailed bible that might have superseded some of this information, but it's probably pretty close to this table. In -900 the Hrasua were probably at TL10 and beating up on human worlds fallen to TL9, though there were likely human worlds with TL10 or even TL11.
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collins355
Banded Mongoose
1200 years for the Aslan at TL10, but only 471 at TL11. What accounts for the acceleration in their tech progression?
G'Naakbusters
Cosmic Mongoose
Presumably the emergence of potential rivals like the Third Imperium and the Solomani Confederation. Enforced monoculture aside, the clans were going to respond to alien powers by innovating or at least achieving parity, I'd say.
