Imperium capital ships of the 5FW - some thoughts

[ChrisJ]

Did you use nukes (Damage value 10) or Standard (DV 4)?

Nukes should do reasonable damage, even to a Plankwell?
~10 000 nukes (~two Tigress salvoes) hitting should kill a Plankwell?

I used advanced missiles - DV5

 

[AnotherDilbert]

To pursue that analogy would the major powers of Charted Space not do what the USA did after Pearl Harbor and move to a carrier-centred fleet and relegate battleships and cruisers largely to shore/orbital bombardment as battle riders and swarms of smaller ships are far cheaper and faster to replace than a Tigress and whatever the Zhodani equivalent is?

The smaller craft would be far more fragile, and have less teeth (hardpoints).

With a carrier they would still be almost as expensive as warships.

The MgT2 combat system is tilted to make battleships, not battleriders, viable.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This also raises a question of how on earth the battling factions of the coming Imperial civil war can possibly sustain it for over a decade?

They didn't. They slowly ran out of ships.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I used advanced missiles - DV5

OK, yes, against warships with military hulls, those should be next to useless.

Try nukes, or nuke torpedoes, instead...

 

[Vormaerin]

You run into a conflict between what makes for exciting gaming (exploding battleships and fast, sharp combat) and what would be the way folks would build ships. If battles result in mutual destruction on the regular, folks would find new strategies for warfighting.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If battles result in mutual destruction on the regular, folks would find new strategies for warfighting.

Only if battles were carefully balanced, otherwise the stronger side would quickly destroy the other.

Ambush possibilities would be sought after, to force a weaker force to commit.

 

[RogerMc]

You run into a conflict between what makes for exciting gaming (exploding battleships and fast, sharp combat) and what would be the way folks would build ships. If battles result in mutual destruction on the regular, folks would find new strategies for warfighting.

Exactly.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Interestingly, against a proper military hull (Armour 30, Fleet armour 8), anything but mesons, nukes, and perhaps large PA bays would be useless. Even PA spinals would bounce...

Time to dust off small meson bays? They do more damage than meson spinals per Dton weapon, and can be mounted on ships small enough that spinals can't effectively target them...

I should perhaps retract anything I said about battleriders?

 

[Vormaerin]

The point is you aren't going to have fleet battles in that environment. You are going to have skirmishes to determine if one side has the advantage and then a pursuit if so. The underdog will try to escape and the stronger force prevent it. Or, as you say, ambushes. Otherwise, both sides will not want to commit to a likely pyrhhic outcome.

A whole lot of space Jutlands, where the smaller German fleet skirmished away from the bigger British fleet and ultimately went home.

 

[ChrisJ]

OK here is my semi in world narrative of the battle I ran (myself as both aggressor and defender). Part 1 of 2

In the latter half of 1103, Duke Norris of Regina was able to manipulate the Sector Navy to sponsor a multi-fleet exercise, to asses tactical readiness for the Jewell theatre to respond to a potential incursion by Zhodani forces. The most heavily publicized of these exercises was the raid on Vallak (the largest of Jewell’s gas giants). In this scenario a division of Hadrian Battle Riders and their supports were issued orders to interdict the Gas giant from being used as a refueling point for the invasion force, their fighter screen having been dispersed to penny pickets to provide sensor coverage over the entire system. The aggressor force comprised reserve elements of the sector fleet, with first line crews, manning a CruRon of Ghallak cruisers, their support vessels, and with the addition of an Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser, and its attached fighters to provide screening and additional firepower.

Aggressor Fleet
4 Galalk Cruisers + 1 Lightning Class Cruiser + 8 Fer-de-Lance Destroyers + 80 Light Fighters

Defender Fleet
3 Hadrian Battle Riders + 2 Valliant Light Cruisers +8 Midu Destroyers

 

[ChrisJ]

OK here is my semi in world narrative of the battle I ran (myself as both aggressor and defender). Part 1 of 2

Part 2 of 2

The scenario opened with the aggressor force Jumping in with a practiced precision just beyond the 100 diameter limit for the GG, and deploying their fighter screen. The defenders formed up, and went out to meet. Just as they reached “Very Long” range, targets began to resolve, and sensors locked, and combat began. Immediately the Azhanti Lightning class cruiser broke off along with half of its fighter squadrons, to provide rear fire support, and so as not to slow the approach of the remainder of the aggressor force.

Initial volleys with Particle beams were exchanged, causing some minor damage due to extreme range inaccuracies, but literally thousands of missiles were launched in both directions. As the range closed to Long, additional weapons came into range, and the accuracies of the weapon crews increased dramatically. But the devastating power of the Hadrian spinal mounts began to bear, agile as the Ghalak’s were, one meson beam caught home, and the ship was instantly called out of action by the adjuicators. The less capable Valients were unable to bring their spinal weapons to bear.

As the range closed even further, another Ghalak was destroyed by Meson fire, another seriously damaged, but the Hadrian’s were taking a beating too, one blew up from the collective fire from the spinal mounts of the remaining Ghalak’s. And then the multiple waves of missiles launched as the ships drove headlong at each other reached their targets almost simultaneously. Targeted at the heavily armored capitol ships the missiles that reached there targets were largely ineffective – against the less heavily armored Valients, the collective damage was too much, and both were destroyed.

By this stage both fleets were heavily damaged with over 50% losses to both aggressor and defender, and yet closer still did the fleets approach, closing to short range where spinal weapons were inaccurate, but more secondary weapons were available to target. Collective fire from the aggressor fleet removed one more Hadrian, but the remaining Hadrian was able to eliminate the two remaining Ghallak’s.

In the latter part of the simulation the Lightning class cruiser was able to keep the wounded Hadrian at range to pepper the Hadrian with its Particle spinal mount, and finish off the defending fleet.

Post combat assessment discussed two main points – while the parameters of the engagement dictated that the aggressor fleet close with the defenders, it would be unlikely that a competent fleet commander would willingly close to within range of the Imperium’s Meson spinal mounts, almost all the kills on the aggressor fleet were made by direct hits by the spinal mount of the Hadrian Battle riders. The other point that was discussed was the lack of effectiveness of the missiles, and that instead of simulated Advanced Missiles, an invasion of Zhodhani vessels would change engagement rules such that a commander would be warranted using Nuclear missiles. The presence of so many nuclear dampers was raised – and in simulation conditions it was impossible to determine if they would have rendered all those waves of missiles impotent.

Other findings were that the secondary armament of the ships involved were mostly inconsequential, with the exception of the Hadrians particle beam bays which held off the approaching Ghalak’s quite effectively until the meson weapons entered range. Furthermore the usual complaint against Battle riders was raised once again, with no effective way to break off – at the end of the conflict the battle rider was defeated because it could not sufficiently close the range to the one remaining aggressor capitol ship.

Following this several events were kicked off – firstly an intelligence campaign was initiated to mislead the Zhodani that the Research project into extended range Meson weapons was more advanced than it really was, and that some re-fits of forward fleets had already been completed. Secondary, the stockpiles of nuclear missiles in fortress fleets were doubled and deployment orders and rules of engagement modified. Finally, enhancement of secondary weapons was investigated – while addition of particle beam bays were considered – this refit was too expensive for most fleets, and would have pulled them from service for too long – the only real modification was for Ghalak’s in the field to receive Torpedo modules to replace their missile modules, as it was felt these would be more effective against heavily armored opponents.

 

[RogerMc]

They didn't. They slowly ran out of ships.

But what the rules suggest is that they'd actually run out of ships very fast...

And while in WW1 the German High Seas fleet having discovered just how catastrophic even a battle where the main fleets remained unengaged could be at Jutland could just choose to stay safely in port until the Armistice this is hardly an option in space where every major world has to be defended.

So if we want the setting to make sense maybe the rules do need to be addressed and at least capital ships made less fragile.

 

[ChrisJ]

OK, yes, against warships with military hulls, those should be next to useless.

Try nukes, or nuke torpedoes, instead...

I realized this and added it to my report.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Even PA spinals would bounce...

No, they wouldn't, just use a bigger gun, and it will more or less ignore armour...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But the devastating power of the Hadrian spinal mounts began to bear, agile as the Ghalak’s were, one meson beam caught home, and the ship was instantly called out of action by the adjuicators. The less capable Valients were unable to bring their spinal weapons to bear.

Wouldn't the Hadrian be better off with a factor 6 PA spinal, instead of the factor 3 meson?

Meson-3: DV18 × 1000 ≈ 18 000 base damage.
PA-6: DV48 × 1000 ≈ 48 000 base damage, or perhaps 40 000 against heavy armour?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And then the multiple waves of missiles launched as the ships drove headlong at each other reached their targets almost simultaneously. Targeted at the heavily armored capitol ships the missiles that reached there targets were largely ineffective – against the less heavily armored Valients, the collective damage was too much, and both were destroyed.

You should concentrate missiles on a few ships, to kill them completely. Destroyed ships don't shoot back...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Other findings were that the secondary armament of the ships involved were mostly inconsequential, with the exception of the Hadrians particle beam bays which held off the approaching Ghalak’s quite effectively until the meson weapons entered range.

The lesson is, I think, don't field "balanced" ships. Go all out for a specific type of armament and combat-style, e.g. mesons or missiles, and keep a distance that gives you an advantage.

 

[ChrisJ]

The lesson is, I think, don't field "balanced" ships. Go all out for a specific type of armament and combat-style, e.g. mesons or missiles, and keep a distance that gives you an advantage.

I was using the standard designs from HG2022 - and didn't make any of the optimizations I would have though made sense.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Post combat assessment discussed two main points – while the parameters of the engagement dictated that the aggressor fleet close with the defenders, it would be unlikely that a competent fleet commander would willingly close to within range of the Imperium’s Meson spinal mounts, almost all the kills on the aggressor fleet were made by direct hits by the spinal mount of the Hadrian Battle riders.

Agreed, the aggressor should have closed to, and then kept, the distance at VLong, to maximise the range advantage of the PAs. That is what the Lightning did, and won the game.

It would be the Hadrians problem to close the range, and with no Thrust advantage, probably an insurmountable problem.

The longer range would also have made the battle slower, as Attack Effectiveness would have been lower at VLong range.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I was using the standard designs from HG2022 - and didn't make any of the optimizations I would have though made sense.

Yes, certainly, it's a good start, we can still learn from the experience.