High-level Conan and E6

[Benedict]

The players in my campaign are just starting to reach 5th level and the game is going great guns. I'm quite concerned however about how things will change as they go up in level further. I imagine that even at high levels, the most common opponent will still be 1st–3rd level men-at-arms or bandits or whatever, which just won't present a decent challenge. It seems that they will quite suddenly become almost invincible.

I would be very interested to hear people's experiences of running adventures at high levels and whether the game can still maintain its interest.

We are considering using the E6 houserule (where the characters stop gaining levels at level 6, and instead only gain feats). I don't suppose anyone has put any thought into implementing E6 for Conan.

 

[Majestic7]

I see no reason not to put higher level opponents against them now and then - 5th to 8th level is somewhat in the range of experienced veterans, for example elite household troops of a noble famility. They shouldn't exist in abundance, but would still exist. One option is to go supernatural - monstrous baddies can give bang for your buck against 20th level characters. However, even low-level NPC's stay as deadly adversaries when you remember three things - massive damage, sneak attack and power attack.

First level Zingaran thief armed with an arbalest could cause 4d8+1d6 damage with one shot! (Arbalest 2d8, sneak attack style 1d8, light-footed 1d8, Zingaran 1d6) Unlike in normal D&D, combat in Conan stays deadly to the end. My characters are currently at level 9 and I can still see them having their butts kicked by low level characters. In ambush at Messantia, thieves at much lower level almost killed them all just because they were surprised.

Besides, I think high level play naturally flows more towards mysteries, ruins and archvillains as its main fodder than casual, yet exciting combat.

 

[Krushnak]

also never forget the multiple attackers rule and flanking, a lvl 20 character surrounded by 20 lvl 1 commoners is still in alot of danger if even one of them remembered to bring a reach weapon to the fight.

 

[Oly]

When the players reach higher levels they won't be facing common opponents like bandits and guards.

Either the players will be ambitious and will be taking on Kings and their more powerful retinues or those same Kings will be so sick of a group of outlaws killing their guards and will send those same powerful retinues after them.

Why raid a small millitary outpost for a few coins when you're now powerful enough to raid a King's castle and try to seize a crown?

It's not just a case of them facing more powerful enemies for game balance, there's plenty of good story reasons as to why higher level NPCs will occur.

 

[The King]

Yes but the way, why is Conan limited to 20th level?

 

[librarycharlie]

The power of an enemy is in his mind, not his level.

I once had an entire party of 6-8th level characters defeated by a 2nd level thief with a plan, a good hide skill, and a cheap poison that sends someone into a frenzy.

The story: the party was riding through town. Thief uses a blowgun to poison their horses, making them froth at the mouth insane. Party takes damage being thrown from, and then subduing horses. Thief shoves a small boy into the path of a rampaging horse. Thief reports murdered boy to authorities. Authorities try to take the adventurers into custody. Thief, once again hidden a couple of buildings away, hits a low-level guardsman with frenzying blowgun dart... who predictably fails the save (which the party could have easily made) and attacks the party's beautiful sorceress. Her boyfriend in the party strikes back, easily killing the guard. Now it's a brutal fight, the party is surrounded by a town that wants them dead (for murdering a child and a guard), and they're weakened and without horses.

One second level thief. Let me tell you, when the party finally got its hands on that guy, there was much rejoicing.

Conan has the great rule where it's harder to defend against multiple opponents. If a squad of 10 guys with bows is attacking, somebody is going to be at +18 or so to his attack. If they take rapid shot, even those first level guardsmen can take out a high level character pretty easily... especially if they start off 100 yards away, and especially if towns start enforcing a "no armor on the streets" policy to try and de-militarize and de-criminalize their towns.

 

[slaughterj]

Conan has the great rule where it's harder to defend against multiple opponents. If a squad of 10 guys with bows is attacking, somebody is going to be at +18 or so to his attack. If they take rapid shot, even those first level guardsmen can take out a high level character pretty easily... especially if they start off 100 yards away, and especially if towns start enforcing a "no armor on the streets" policy to try and de-militarize and de-criminalize their towns.

The multiple attacker rule is for melee only. Also, it provides a +1 for each additional attacker, so not sure where +18 would come from, +9 yes, but that would require a tough situation to have 10 guys able to attack you (reach weapons and such).

 

[bjorntfh]

I'm in a level 16, almost 17 group and a few things to note: we fight (mostly) in a real battle 2-6 level 10-14 characters plus their troops and our trrops on our side. We also burn through minimum 1-2 fate points a session due to the problems you get facing lots of Mooks: yeah, you can cleave a few, but they're going to overwhelm you eventually.

 

[bjorntfh]

With reach weapons you can get the last guy up to +24 (there are 8 attackers in the first ring, the second ring has another 16).

If you're dumb enough to charge a Gunderling Pike formation you can get hit by 5 pikes wide up to 4 ranks deep (15-20 foot reach on pikes) due to the doughnut effect. Remember: if your opponent has "Hold the Line" you're getting two AoO's per square (one for entering, one for leaving, possibly a third if they set against your charge.) This means EACH opponent gets up to 3 swings witht he last guy having a +19 bonus to hit you.

As a common rule: Don't charge pikes or spears... it hurts.

 

[Bjorn the Barbarian]

librarycharlie,

That was just down-right evil. :twisted:

Darn good idea though. I like it, mind if I steal it?

 

[Benedict]

When the players reach higher levels they won't be facing common opponents like bandits and guards.

Either the players will be ambitious and will be taking on Kings and their more powerful retinues or those same Kings will be so sick of a group of outlaws killing their guards and will send those same powerful retinues after them.

Why raid a small millitary outpost for a few coins when you're now powerful enough to raid a King's castle and try to seize a crown?

It's not just a case of them facing more powerful enemies for game balance, there's plenty of good story reasons as to why higher level NPCs will occur.

The problem I have is that it seems too artificial if these common opponents just disappear to be replaced with tougher opponents or opponents with better tactics.

Also, if I have to introduce higher levelled opponents to keep up with my levelling-up PCs, there doesn't seem much reason to have them level up. This is why I am considering using E6, which stops levelling at level 6.

What I really like to know is how the game evolves as it gets to mid to high levels. Have people found that the game changes at higher levels? What will we miss out on if we do implement E6?

 

[Oly]

The problem I have is that it seems too artificial if these common opponents just disappear to be replaced with tougher opponents or opponents with better tactics.

Also, if I have to introduce higher levelled opponents to keep up with my levelling-up PCs, there doesn't seem much reason to have them level up. This is why I am considering using E6, which stops levelling at level 6.

What I really like to know is how the game evolves as it gets to mid to high levels. Have people found that the game changes at higher levels? What will we miss out on if we do implement E6?

The high level opponents are always there. However no sane low level PC would be trying to take them on and those same low level PCs are not worth the time of the high level NPCs.

The existence of those high level, well equipped and well trained NPC is why the players can keep levelling up.

Eventually when the players either get bored of wiping out hordes of low level mooks or the leaders of the low level mooks decide that they need to deal with the mook slayers then the paths of the powerful NPCs and PCs will cross.

There really won't be many of those high level opponents and it's totally reasonable that they're not encountered early on. There just isn't enough of them to spare to guard every two bit city leader.

It's not so much that low level opponents are replaced with high level ones. It's that the situations that the players will find themselves in will have higher level opposition.

Level 1 PCs might raid a small outpost and face low level guards. By level 10 or so the PCs should be raiding the Kings castle and facing his personal body guards.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

In my experience, increasing the levels of NPC's will effectively challenge the PC's, either at the same levels or 1 maybe two higher.

Also, in the Compendium, there is a class for the bandit.

Throwing 3 or 4 low level to mid monsters could do the trick also.