Technology in Traveller RPG (CSC2023 and Robot Handbook)

[Jakovian]

Hi,
I'm wondering about new technologies, mainly described in the Robot Handbook and CSC2022.
1. 3D printers. I feel that their ubiquity is changing the structure of trade in the Imperium. A lot of things will not be transported, but only the filament for printers. Of course, high technologies, handmade items, etc. will still be in use, but there is no point in transporting simple machines if they can be printed.
2. Robots servicing spacecraft. When I first read Traveller, I saw how many people were needed on large ships. However, it is economically justified for the crew to be skeletal, and the majority of work to be done by robots.
3. Cloning and clone workers. I see this a bit like in Blade Runner. Why do we need miners to be paid when we can grow them in a jar? Why do we need prostitutes when we can have them from a test tube without dealing with human rights?

Of course, this may be limited at the level of worlds (everyone is afraid of artificial intelligence), but the economy always wins over prejudices.

4. I'm also wondering what other technologies can turn the world "upside down" a bit. I miss the description of virtual reality or augmented reality in the Traveller world. Non-Newtonian fluid materials - even now, in countries like Poland, research is being conducted on, for example, suits for workers. Full surveillance - Chinese methods of scoring people would probably be easier at TL 13-15 than now. What limits them, apart from a leaky law?

5. Are there aerodynes from CP2020? I know they are described in AD2300, but here they were replaced by Grav?
6. Magnetic vehicles without tracks. Do they make sense?
7. Why doesn't the empire massively adapt people to a given environment? There were some examples, but it calls for mass attempts. Is there any limitation? People breathing ammonia, etc. Again - there is more about it in AD2300.

8. And how is it that the empire is 1000 years old, worlds were discovered 300-400 years ago, and the technological level has not leveled out? A planet has 100,000 inhabitants and still lives at TL5. Apart from some strange culture, religious fanaticism at the Amish level, it probably doesn't make sense. On Earth in the 21st century, apart from artificially protected indigenous peoples, the differences in TL are at most 2 levels.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Hi,
I'm wondering about new technologies, mainly described in the Robot Handbook and CSC2022.
1. 3D printers. I feel that their ubiquity is changing the structure of trade in the Imperium. A lot of things will not be transported, but only the filament for printers. Of course, high technologies, handmade items, etc. will still be in use, but there is no point in transporting simple machines if they can be printed.

T5 introduced makers- a design system - and someone (me) mentioned to the powers that be that that during playtesting T5 my players wanted to know where the maker was on their ship.
We now have makers 9actual manufacturing machines) included in canon.

2. Robots servicing spacecraft. When I first read Traveller, I saw how many people were needed on large ships. However, it is economically justified for the crew to be skeletal, and the majority of work to be done by robots.

The only way the small crew requirements make sense is for the ship to pretty much be a robot, everysystem is automated to the point that the crew member is a button pusher.

3. Cloning and clone workers. I see this a bit like in Blade Runner. Why do we need miners to be paid when we can grow them in a jar? Why do we need prostitutes when we can have them from a test tube without dealing with human rights?

Because in the Imperium clones have the same rights as every other sophont (technically) and slavery is a big no no - Imperial intervention level no no. The bio/mechanical synthetics blur the line, as do cyborgs, while totally mechanical robots are considered machines... for now.

Of course, this may be limited at the level of worlds (everyone is afraid of artificial intelligence), but the economy always wins over prejudices.

Not always...

4. I'm also wondering what other technologies can turn the world "upside down" a bit. I miss the description of virtual reality or augmented reality in the Traveller world. Non-Newtonian fluid materials - even now, in countries like Poland, research is being conducted on, for example, suits for workers. Full surveillance - Chinese methods of scoring people would probably be easier at TL 13-15 than now. What limits them, apart from a leaky law?

If we can do it now why move the TL to 13-15... we are not at TL8 yet (no fusion rectors, man portable laser weapons, air/rafts). TL9 is what you should be worried about...

5. Are there aerodynes from CP2020? I know they are described in AD2300, but here they were replaced by Grav?

Grav tech replaces the need.

6. Magnetic vehicles without tracks. Do they make sense?

No.

7. Why doesn't the empire massively adapt people to a given environment? There were some examples, but it calls for mass attempts. Is there any limitation? People breathing ammonia, etc. Again - there is more about it in AD2300.

They do, see the original S:3 Spinward marches supplement

8. And how is it that the empire is 1000 years old, worlds were discovered 300-400 years ago, and the technological level has not leveled out? A planet has 100,000 inhabitants and still lives at TL5. Apart from some strange culture, religious fanaticism at the Amish level, it probably doesn't make sense. On Earth in the 21st century, apart from artificially protected indigenous peoples, the differences in TL are at most 2 levels.

Because the rich people concentrate the wealth to themselves and the poor scape by, as it has always been.
Go and read up on living conditions for the average Chinese agricultural worker, or Indian, or...

 

[Condottiere]

Energy is, in theory, cheap.

High passages, are not.

 

[Jakovian]

The only way the small crew requirements make sense is for the ship to pretty much be a robot, everysystem is automated to the point that the crew member is a button pusher.

In accordance with Asimov's thesis, humanoid robots exist so that there is no need to build infrastructure for them. Ships that are 200 years old do not need to be retrofitted for robots, and there is no need to automate the ship itself, although new ships would probably be built that way. Robots do not require food, air, and a place to sleep

Because in the Imperium clones have the same rights as every other sophont (technically) and slavery is a big no no - Imperial intervention level no no. The bio/mechanical synthetics blur the line, as do cyborgs, while totally mechanical robots are considered machines... for now.

All it takes is to give clones a short life (10-12 years) and credit for their creation. You have a legal slave.

Not always...

If we can do it now why move the TL to 13-15... we are not at TL8 yet (no fusion rectors, man portable laser weapons, air/rafts). TL9 is what you should be worried about...

Grav tech replaces the need.

No.

They do, see the original S:3 Spinward marches supplement

Are you talking about a Mongoose manual or older editions?

Because the rich people concentrate the wealth to themselves and the poor scape by, as it has always been.
Go and read up on living conditions for the average Chinese agricultural worker, or Indian, or...

I don't need to go to India. I was born in a communist state, subordinate to Russia. Since we gained freedom (1989), our standard of living has been slowly approaching the European level. My parents in my age had to work for a month to have 20 dollars, and I spend more on game books every month In the last 10 years, India has made a gigantic leap in civilization and it is said that by 2050 it will be the third largest economy. China is already the second. The standard of living of the Chinese has risen drastically in the last 20 years, of course there is poverty, but even a farmer has access to a mobile phone. India has the most advanced computer system in the world for registering and identifying citizens.

 

[Vormaerin]

People on Earth are a lot closer together than people on two different star systems in Traveller. Not just literally, but in terms of travel time. On Earth today, you can fly pretty much anywhere in a day or two at most. Mostly a lot less. You can call almost anywhere instantly.

In Traveller, a person on Vilis wants to talk to his subordinate on the colony of Garda-Vilis, its a 14 day round trip. Either in person or by mail courier. If this was Star Wars or Star Trek, where FTL is a few hours and you have FTL communications, it would be a different issue. But that time lag is huge. Its really hard to impose culture over that kind of communications gap.

As for the technology party, some one has to pay for it. And they generally don't do that without a reason.

 

[Vormaerin]

That said, technology level is a very fuzzy number even among the generally fuzzy numbers used in Traveller. Folks will generally have access to bits and bobs of higher tech if they have access to space travellers. The tech level of a system is generally what they can produce themselves or what they find worth importing. Look at Flatlined or the Calixcuel Incident, both of which have "low" tech systems where there are high tech power plants and various offworld tech available. Just not widespread or able to be built on that world.

 

[Jakovian]

That said, technology level is a very fuzzy number even among the generally fuzzy numbers used in Traveller. Folks will generally have access to bits and bobs of higher tech if they have access to space travellers. The tech level of a system is generally what they can produce themselves or what they find worth importing. Look at Flatlined or the Calixcuel Incident, both of which have "low" tech systems where there are high tech power plants and various offworld tech available. Just not widespread or able to be built on that world.

People on Earth are a lot closer together than people on two different star systems in Traveller. Not just literally, but in terms of travel time. On Earth today, you can fly pretty much anywhere in a day or two at most. Mostly a lot less. You can call almost anywhere instantly.

In Traveller, a person on Vilis wants to talk to his subordinate on the colony of Garda-Vilis, its a 14 day round trip. Either in person or by mail courier. If this was Star Wars or Star Trek, where FTL is a few hours and you have FTL communications, it would be a different issue. But that time lag is huge. Its really hard to impose culture over that kind of communications gap.

As for the technology party, some one has to pay for it. And they generally don't do that without a reason.

Cultural differences certainly exist, as they are enormous on Earth. A 14-day distance is a problem in efficient management, not in trade or knowledge exchange, especially over a span of 100 or 200 years. Of course, there may be a problem with the microprocessor factory (we see the effect of the free world's sanctions on the Russian regime after the brutal attack on Ukraine), while mobile phones or access to medicines are similar in most places around the world. Of course, it may cost more, building infrastructure is expensive, but countries can afford to purchase key machines or devices. My country is currently buying hundreds of tanks and dozens of F35 fighters, and it is one of the poorer ones in Europe.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I don't need to go to India. I was born in a communist state, subordinate to Russia. Since we gained freedom (1989), our standard of living has been slowly approaching the European level. My parents in my age had to work for a month to have 20 dollars, and I spend more on game books every month In the last 10 years, India has made a gigantic leap in civilization and it is said that by 2050 it will be the third largest economy. China is already the second. The standard of living of the Chinese has risen drastically in the last 20 years, of course there is poverty, but even a farmer has access to a mobile phone. India has the most advanced computer system in the world for registering and identifying citizens.

There are more people living in poverty in India and China than the rest of the world combined, just because a small middle class has evolved doesn't alter the living conditions of the masses.

 

[JustEastOfTheEdge]

8. And how is it that the empire is 1000 years old, worlds were discovered 300-400 years ago, and the technological level has not leveled out? A planet has 100,000 inhabitants and still lives at TL5. Apart from some strange culture, religious fanaticism at the Amish level, it probably doesn't make sense. On Earth in the 21st century, apart from artificially protected indigenous peoples, the differences in TL are at most 2 levels.

You are right, it doesn't make really make a great deal of sense as a Jump is only a week away. People will jump through hoops trying to rationalise it, but that is just wheels within imaginary wheels.
But bear in mind that a world's TL is not exactly what you might think it is. It is more like the kind of TL it can sustain itself at. You can have a TL 9 world with access, even lots of access to TL 15 stuff, it would just be much more expensive and harder to get.

A lot of people on here will defend Traveller's 1977 vision of the future — for some it has a certain nostalgia and internal consistency. For others it seems quirky. "Why would Astrogation be a skill when we know that is exactly why computers were made? What are they calculating exactly that a computer cannot."
( I am somewhere in between) If parts of it make no sense to you, you can pretty much do what you want with it. (Traveller Rule 0).

 

[Shardan13]

I know read recently in a Traveller supplement that there is a tendency for low tech societies self stopping their tech base development because it was easier to import them from their higher tech neighbors but which supplement that was I couldn't tell you.

 

[Vormaerin]

First, Traveller is a Science FICTION simulator. It is designed to create worlds for adventuring in the mold of classic space opera. So keep that in mind when you look at the rules. The entire point of the system is to generate worlds that spark the referee's creativity and sense of "how would that work and what kind of adventures would it produce.".

Second, it does not sound to me like you understand what Tech levels are. They are a general guideline to what's available on the world. Given that any planet that isn't a red zone is going to get *some* trade, what's actually available on the world does not fit into a neat little number. But some worlds are deliberately kept as market colonies, some just don't have the population to support homegrown industries, some used to have better tech but something happened. They may just have a crappy government that mismanages everything, intentionally or by accident. And even if they do have a low tech, that doesn't mean they look like low tech looked on Earth. That tech 5 world could have cellphones and aircraft with the tech level adjustment rules applied, so that they just aren't as good as the the ones that can be imported.

Neon, the world in Flatlined, is a good example. Its a low pop, balkanized world of Tech 7 that is 1 jump-2 from the most advanced world in the area (Tobia). How does that make sense? What the world actually is is a straightforward backwater. There's a few scattered half assed 'colonies', some mining settlements, and one small town by what passes for a starport. They have portable fusion generators, they know how lots of advanced stuff works. But there's only 900 or so people on the planet and probably 10% of those don't consider themselves residents (they work for the asteroid mining companies). They have no meaningful industry. Maybe some fabricators or basic robot pocket factories, but that's about it. There's no money to be made coming here in trade, so they get maybe a ship a month, if that. And its probably some tramp trader whose sister lives in one of the colonies, because there's surely no rational reason to try trading here. There's a decent amount of traffic, but it skips the "mainworld" entirely and goes out to the asteroid mining stations deep in the system.

 

[Jakovian]

First, Traveller is a Science FICTION simulator. It is designed to create worlds for adventuring in the mold of classic space opera. So keep that in mind when you look at the rules. The entire point of the system is to generate worlds that spark the referee's creativity and sense of "how would that work and what kind of adventures would it produce.".

Yes, it's an SF system. However, I don't remember "S" being written in lowercase and "F" in uppercase. Regardless of how strange the world may be, it should make sense. Otherwise, we're entering the realm of Warhammer and magic.

Second, it does not sound to me like you understand what Tech levels are. They are a general guideline to what's available on the world. Given that any planet that isn't a red zone is going to get *some* trade, what's actually available on the world does not fit into a neat little number. But some worlds are deliberately kept as market colonies, some just don't have the population to support homegrown industries, some used to have better tech but something happened. They may just have a crappy government that mismanages everything, intentionally or by accident. And even if they do have a low tech, that doesn't mean they look like low tech looked on Earth. That tech 5 world could have cellphones and aircraft with the tech level adjustment rules applied, so that they just aren't as good as the the ones that can be imported.

In the main rulebook, it is explicitly stated that TL is the primary level of available technology. How, over 300 years, when there is a high-tech world nearby and trade exchange (the basis of the empire!), can a technological difference greater than that between us and the Middle Ages be maintained? Kiikkedir TL10, Ohasset TL15 - distance jump-2 Hadaskilid TL5, Baakh TL13 - distance jump-2

 

[Condottiere]

Primarily, technological level that the local industrial base can sustain.

When the rest of the statistics don't quite make sense, like a very low population, very high technological level, and no automated industrial base, then it has to have been sustained externally, and presumably, reliably.

 

[Jakovian]

Ok, I'll ask another question that may be a truism for "old" Game Masters. How much do characters know about a given planet or system? They're traveling to another subsector, to some cluster, and they have their ship. Do they have the exact location of all planets? Do they know the legal rules, culture, and customs in a given place? How much data should they have in their database at the beginning about a given location? Are all large mines on uninhabited planets listed? Space bases? And I'm not talking about character skills, but about generally available data in databases.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, it's an SF system. However, I don't remember "S" being written in lowercase and "F" in uppercase. Regardless of how strange the world may be, it should make sense. Otherwise, we're entering the realm of Warhammer and magic.

Its the referee's job to figure out why that collection of numbers makes sense. If it doesn't make sense for you as it is, change the numbers or the entire setting. NO ONE runs the 3I as written. That's why "In My Traveller Universe" (IMTU) is a standard abbreviation. But just like Top Secret was designed to let you do James Bond rather than a real CIA analyst, Traveller a game about letting you play your own version of science fiction literature adventures, many of which are on technological backwaters.

If Bangladesh was its own planet, what would its tech level be? They have a lot of high tech stuff, but local manufacturing isn't producing most of it. In the real world, international competition hinders home grown industry as much as tech knowledge spread helps it. Would planet Bangladesh build its own cellphone industry or continue to import them from somewhere else and focus on making things locals need and/or space travellers will buy? If you are survey scout, are you recording that they have imported cellphones and whatnot or are you recording what tech Bangladeshi industry produces itself?

"It has to make sense" is an extremely subjective standard. The only person who can make it make sense to you is you, because it is your definition of "Makes sense" that matters. A telepathic space lizard demigod uplifts THREE terrestrial animals (humans, dolphins, canines) and scatters them all over the galactic neighborhood without apparently bothering to do that for any of the many other worlds out there (including its homeworld) makes sense to you, but heterogenous tech spread doesn't? Okay. So homogenize the tech levels in your campaign. Just like I fired Grandfather and have a different vision of the Ancients.

 

[Vormaerin]

Ok, I'll ask another question that may be a truism for "old" Game Masters. How much do characters know about a given planet or system? They're traveling to another subsector, to some cluster, and they have their ship. Do they have the exact location of all planets? Do they know the legal rules, culture, and customs in a given place? How much data should they have in their database at the beginning about a given location? Are all large mines on uninhabited planets listed? Space bases? And I'm not talking about character skills, but about generally available data in databases.

That's going to depend. If its in the Imperium, its been surveyed by the Scouts so the basic information should be available, assuming the characters put even rudimentary effort into that. Of course, that survey is like once a decade, so how well that is updated for changes depends on how often starships visit and report that stuff. Lack of FTL communications makes surprises definitely possible. Is it a main world with an A or B starport on a trade main? Data's going to be pretty up to date at neighboring systems. Is it a backwater jump 3 from anywhere? Less likely changes will get noticed and spread around.

Outside of the Empire? Anything goes. Basic astrographical data would probably be known unless you are doing a first in frontier setting, but how up to date any info on population and local changes would be is pretty doubtful.

 

[Shardan13]

If anyone is interested in fully automating their spaceship they should check out Aliens of Charted Space vol 2, pg 235 - 238 (note that the table may not match the description). It seems that the hivers have been doing it for centuries.

 

[Condottiere]

While consciously intelligent.

 

[Prime_Evil]

The TL system supports three common SF tropes.

The first is the Lost Colony. This is a remote world cut off from galactic civilisation for several centuries. The inhabitants might descend from the survivors of a shipwreck or a failed colonial outpost. Without the local population or knowledge to support an advanced technological economy, the inhabitants regress to a lower tech level. This trope was common in classic SF. It was convenient for authors who wanted an excuse for protagonists to engage in sword and planet adventures on a low TL world. Many older SF novels assumed multiple waves of human expansion. Lost colonies were the logical result of this.

A second trope is the backwater world. This is a world or subsector with a slightly lower TL than what is available "back home". Many SF settings assume a TL difference between what is available in the "Core Worlds" and what is available across the frontier colonies. The difference isn't always massive, but it is a very common genre trope.

A third trope worth considering is the existence of alien civilisations with technology more advanced than anything humans can produce. These advanced Alien civilisations are often conveniently extinct but leave behind enigmatic artifacts. Most SF universes refer to these as Forerunners, Precursors, or Ancients. They are the source of advanced megastructures (as in the Halo Franchise). They may leave Big Dumb Objects scattered across the cosmos for humans to discover and explore. Their disappearance is often a mystery. The OTU has obviously incorporated this trope from an early date.

The flip side of this is the trope is the existence of primitive alien cultures. These are often depicted as "noble savages" like the Na'vi from the Avatar movies. An entire subgenre of SF deals with first contact between humans and primitive aliens. Often this is a flimsy excuse to throw the protagonists into an adventure story on a less advanced world. Jack Vance's Planet of Adventure series is a good example of the type.

 

[Giorgio3025]

(snip)
Second, it does not sound to me like you understand what Tech levels are. They are a general guideline to what's available on the world. Given that any planet that isn't a red zone is going to get *some* trade, what's actually available on the world does not fit into a neat little number. But some worlds are deliberately kept as market colonies, some just don't have the population to support homegrown industries, some used to have better tech but something happened. They may just have a crappy government that mismanages everything, intentionally or by accident. And even if they do have a low tech, that doesn't mean they look like low tech looked on Earth. That tech 5 world could have cellphones and aircraft with the tech level adjustment rules applied, so that they just aren't as good as the the ones that can be imported.
(snip)

As a new MGT2E GM in training, I am familiar with the GURPS Tech Level concept, and how it breaks things down in categories such as “General” (start date, standard wealth, typical monthly pay, signature technologies...) and “By Field” (transportation, weapons and armor, power, biotechnology, medicine…); is there an MGT2E equivalent to this?

I am aware of the Traveller SRD entry, and what I can find with a general Google search, plus what I have read from the Core Rulebook 2022 Update, Traveller Companion, and Vehicle Handbook (as of now). Is there another MGT2E source that has the TI’s Technology Level laid out in more detail, or is this information that is just spread around it various places?