High Guard Barrages

[Captain Brann]

Hi Barrages make no sense at all.

if you have more than 12 points of armor on a ship you will never take damage as you subtract 12+ from your to hit roll which will not let any damage through.
A large bay Particle beam can do 9d6 dam which is an average of 31dam, if you have 15 armor 16 dam would get past. Under the barrage system it is unlikely any would even though you will be firing many bays at once.

Can anyone explain this to me??

It seems to me that the armor should be taken from the average damage for a weapon before you multiply by the number firing and then that damage is changed by the damage chart based on the other defenses in play. If you start with a zero or below damage number then count it as 1/4 for the purposes of working out the damage effect [per 10 weapons firing]. this will turn the Barrage damage chart from Dice damage to actual damage.

For example in the above with 10 large bay Particle beam's can do 9d6 dam which is an average of 31dam, if you have 15 armor 16 dam would get past. Which works out as 160 damage if the firing ship scores a 12 to hit you would score 225% 385 damage to the target.

Using the books example the missiles would be average damage 7 less the 2 amour makes 5 damage. The defense reduces the attack roll of 12 by 4 for the screens, 1 for the lasers, 0 for the sand = 5. SO the attack roll becomes 7 200 missiles x average 5 damage = 1000 damage x 100% = 1,000 damage on the Victory.
If the Victory had armor 4 the damage would end up as 3 x 200x 100% = 600.
If the Victory had armor 6 the damage would be 1 x 200 x100% = 200.
If the victory had armor 7+ then the damage would be 1/4 x 200 x 100% = 50.

This seems to make more sense to me than the original, however I might just be totally missing the point of the original.

Chris

 

[Klaus Kipling]

I recently spotted this in HG, and posted it here:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38011&sid=5b4cfa7f9fc22956290b6c5b060b158f

>>>>>
"Add up the protection offered by the defenses, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM."

This is p.74 of HG, first column, in the para headed Barrages & Defenses, just above the subheader Armour:.

This states, though not very clearly, that the damage dice of a single weapon of type is subtracted from the negative DM to the 2d6 barrage roll produced from adding armour and other defenses together.
>>>>>

Actually it goes even further, as the number of damage dice become a positive DM to the roll if the armour and other defenses are low.

Eg, a 100ton Particle Beam bay vs armour value 6 would end up with a +3 DM to the barrage roll.

None of the examples reflect this, and the important text is well concealed. It could do with being explicitly obvious, since the whole barrage system hangs on it.

 

[Captain Brann]

I recently spotted this in HG, and posted it here:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38011&sid=5b4cfa7f9fc22956290b6c5b060b158f

>>>>>
"Add up the protection offered by the defenses, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM."

This is p.74 of HG, first column, in the para headed Barrages & Defenses, just above the subheader Armour:.

This states, though not very clearly, that the damage dice of a single weapon of type is subtracted from the negative DM to the 2d6 barrage roll produced from adding armour and other defenses together.
>>>>>

Actually it goes even further, as the number of damage dice become a positive DM to the roll if the armour and other defenses are low.

Eg, a 100ton Particle Beam bay vs armour value 6 would end up with a +3 DM to the barrage roll.

None of the examples reflect this, and the important text is well concealed. It could do with being explicitly obvious, since the whole barrage system hangs on it.

Hi
I am not sure that you are right here.

As the Line says.
"Instead of reducing the damage directly, defenses such as armor or sand provide a DM to the attack roll. Add up the protection offered by the defenses, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM."
I think this means what it says and the example shows it as such. I just think that they have said subtract it from the individual weapon damage score when they meant to say subtract ... from the barrage attack roll. Other wise they would be saying subtract the Damage die of the weapons type firing from the target ships armor value before using the armor in the defense DM.

However which ever way you do it if you have a target with armor 15 you will still be hard pushed to do any damage.

Also once you have worked out a hit what do the Barrage Damage results mean roll that many die or that many hits?
So if you fire 100 missiles x 2 die which = 200 die barrage and get a 50% result is that 130 die rolls or 130 damage. I am assuming 130 damage ie you get 1 damage per barrage die result. however again that is not what the result of the missile attack in the book says.


Chris

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Hi
I am not sure that you are right here.

As the Line says.
"Instead of reducing the damage directly, defenses such as armor or sand provide a DM to the attack roll. Add up the protection offered by the defenses, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM."
I think this means what it says and the example shows it as such. I just think that they have said subtract it from the individual weapon damage score when they meant to say subtract ... from the barrage attack roll. Other wise they would be saying subtract the Damage die of the weapons type firing from the target ships armor value before using the armor in the defense DM.

"Individual Weapon Damage score" is more or less identical to "Individual Weapon Damage in dice" at the top of page 74 as part of the barrage notation.

With that interpretation the text lower down is just a little unclear; using your definition it is totally wrong, mixing a DM with an actual roll. If they had put it your way: "subtract the Damage die of the weapons type firing from the target ships armor value before using the armor in the defense DM" it would be clearer, but I actually think it means exactly what it says.

Weapon Damage Dice - Armour = DM to barrage roll, and if the damage dice exceed the armour this then becomes a positive DM.

Either the rule is incorrect or the example is. As the rule makes sense, or at least more sense than not being the case, I'd argue that the example is wrong (not unusual so far in MGT...)

Also, it would mean 9 beam lasers that were very high yield would be more powerful than a large particle beam bay, as the former would get a +2DM and the latter would not. If Individual Weapon Damage dice were not taken into account, that is. Once they are, that bay gets a +9DM vs unarmoured opponents compared to a +3DM from the lasers. Only fair considering that bay takes up 100tons and those 9 lasers only take up 3.

However which ever way you do it if you have a target with armor 15 you will still be hard pushed to do any damage.

Well seen as Ar 15 is the best you can get (in the OTU), it should be pretty hard to damage. However, if you attack said armour with a large particle beam bay, then the net DM is -6. Add to that gunner skill and fire control software, and that could be reduced to 0 easily (and only sand can affect that). Better yet, use a meson gun and ignore that armour

Also once you have worked out a hit what do the Barrage Damage results mean roll that many die or that many hits?
So if you fire 100 missiles x 2 die which = 200 die barrage and get a 50% result is that 130 die rolls or 130 damage. I am assuming 130 damage ie you get 1 damage per barrage die result. however again that is not what the result of the missile attack in the book says.

100 nuclear (2-dice) missiles at 50% would be 100 damage. It is one point per die. If the barrage is against small craft or spacecraft, the rules (on p75) tell you to multiply them by 3, which can be considered a fair average.

Essentially the barrage assumes the weapons do minimum damage per dice vs capital ships.