High Guard 2E construction times

[-Daniel-]

Not sure how you can say "the rules are meant to handle PC-sized vessels" when they clearly are meant to handle ships a lot bigger than that. And space stations, for that matter. That's the whole point of High Guard - it's supposed to go up to big sizes that are beyond the sort of "Adventure level" ships that PCs run around in. It's really more for people who want a more complete design system or for people who enjoy the 'mini-game' of ship design for its own sake.

This is just an opinion of course, but I suspect that the only times construction time is an issue is the small, player level ships. Why? Because if I am one of the people who like the "mini-game" of designing some 500k ton monster or the person who wants to play ship to ship fleet battles using large ships, I don't care how long the game says it will take to build my fleet or my monster ship. Rather I am having fun adding the various weapons and options and then maybe working on a deck plan and/or picture of my new monster ship. Where a player who is looking to build a custom ship in the 400 ton range is , in game, interested in time needed. So while HG is meant for both types of needs, I am now realizing the construction times are not really an issue for the large ships.

 

[fusor]

Not sure how you can say "the rules are meant to handle PC-sized vessels" when they clearly are meant to handle ships a lot bigger than that. And space stations, for that matter. That's the whole point of High Guard - it's supposed to go up to big sizes that are beyond the sort of "Adventure level" ships that PCs run around in. It's really more for people who want a more complete design system or for people who enjoy the 'mini-game' of ship design for its own sake.

This is just an opinion of course, but I suspect that the only times construction time is an issue is the small, player level ships. Why? Because if I am one of the people who like the "mini-game" of designing some 500k ton monster or the person who wants to play ship to ship fleet battles using large ships, I don't care how long the game says it will take to build my fleet or my monster ship. Rather I am having fun adding the various weapons and options and then maybe working on a deck plan and/or picture of my new monster ship. Where a player who is looking to build a custom ship in the 400 ton range is , in game, interested in time needed. So while HG is meant for both types of needs, I am now realizing the construction times are not really an issue for the large ships.

Yeah, but it has implications for the setting. I know that some people like to ignore things like that and claim they don't matter, but I think that just makes the setting even more rickety than it already is (the OTU has quite a lot of holes in it already). I think a better solution would be to resolve this rather than to claim that it doesn't matter.

 

[-Daniel-]

Not sure how you can say "the rules are meant to handle PC-sized vessels" when they clearly are meant to handle ships a lot bigger than that. And space stations, for that matter. That's the whole point of High Guard - it's supposed to go up to big sizes that are beyond the sort of "Adventure level" ships that PCs run around in. It's really more for people who want a more complete design system or for people who enjoy the 'mini-game' of ship design for its own sake.

This is just an opinion of course, but I suspect that the only times construction time is an issue is the small, player level ships. Why? Because if I am one of the people who like the "mini-game" of designing some 500k ton monster or the person who wants to play ship to ship fleet battles using large ships, I don't care how long the game says it will take to build my fleet or my monster ship. Rather I am having fun adding the various weapons and options and then maybe working on a deck plan and/or picture of my new monster ship. Where a player who is looking to build a custom ship in the 400 ton range is , in game, interested in time needed. So while HG is meant for both types of needs, I am now realizing the construction times are not really an issue for the large ships.

Yeah, but it has implications for the setting. I know that some people like to ignore things like that and claim they don't matter, but I think that just makes the setting even more rickety than it already is (the OTU has quite a lot of holes in it already). I think a better solution would be to resolve this rather than to claim that it doesn't matter.

Note, I did ask for it to be resolved, but I have also accepted that it does not seem that it will be. I do agree that it would be nice though. I agree, that given what we do know, the time seems off for the larger ships, so we know there must be more information that could be created or shared. So I, for one, do not claim it does not matter. I do claim it will not break the game and that, in the end, I will be able to run my games with what I have so far.

 

[AndrewW]

This is getting updated.

 

[-Daniel-]

This is getting updated.

Thank You Andrew. I look forward to seeing what the team comes up with. :mrgreen:

 

[phavoc]

Smaller starships, of say less than 10k tons would likely be built most anywhere. However if our own history of ship building tells us anything, there is a practical limit to what one should expect.

The rules genericize shipyards, which with the above caveat makes sense in a game setting. But the building of true warships of the size of the Tigress should require their set of specialized rules as well as limitations in the number of yards not only skilled and capable, but also that have the necessary infrastructure and industries to do so. Which means players are left a bit in the lurch to try and universally apply the shipbuilding rules across a vast scale. And there lies this issue.

If you think about it, warships should be built to different specifications because they would need more compartmentilization, armor, reinforced bulkheads, etc, as the norm. Civilian ships are going to be built for functionality and cheapness because they are optimized for making money. The more complicated the ship, the more it costs to operate and maintain, so civiliac shios have a different dynamic they are built to. At least in reality, and it's a paradigm that translates well onto a gaming system that's trying to replicate some of this same reality.

 

[Spartan159]

Something I've seen in various places is the idea that capitol ships can be built in modules on a world and assembled in orbit. The largest ship I've seen anywhere that could land was 5,000 dTons. How many 5,000 dTon capable bays does any particular starport have, and could modules be sourced form nearby starports, transported much like a battle tender transports battle riders? This implies the existence of tugs capable of maneuvering 5,000 dTon modules too, either one big tug or multiple smaller ones. Just some thoughts on the subject. Another idea I've seen in an old Dragon magazine article is the idea of starport gravitic grids capable of launching/landing objects much like a tractor/repulsor beam.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The largest ship I've seen anywhere that could land was 5,000 dTons.

Nearly all large warships in HG are standard configuration, so Partially Streamlined, hence can land. They have to be to be able to ocean refuel. No ocean refuelling wold restrict strategic mobility, since not all systems have gasgiants.

 

[Spartan159]

The largest ship I've seen anywhere that could land was 5,000 dTons.

Nearly all large warships in HG are standard configuration, so Partially Streamlined, hence can land. They have to be to be able to ocean refuel. No ocean refuelling wold restrict strategic mobility, since not all systems have gasgiants.

My fault, I was unclear. I meant land at a starport.

 

[Condottiere]

Obsolescence is an issue navies had to deal with since eighteen sixty, Anno Domini.

In Traveller, tech levels last centuries.

Of course, a Tigress isn't a Plankwell, and for that investment in time and resource, you want cutting edge from the time of her commissioning, plus twenty years.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

My fault, I was unclear. I meant land at a starport.

You were not unclear, I was.

Partially streamlined ships can land in this edition.

Partial streamlining allows a ship to skim gas giants and enter Atmosphere codes of 3 or less, acting in the same way as streamlined ships. In other atmospheres, the ship will be ponderous and unresponsive, reliant on its thrusters to keep it aloft. All Pilot checks will be made with DM-2.

They are clumsy, but can enter atmospheres and land, both at starports or in oceans. It's easier to land at a starport, than in an ocean to refuel.