Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
As I understand the text, you could install three independent single turrets on a seventy tonne hull.
HG 2e Weapons per turret
- Thread starter snrdg121408
- Start date
Solomani666
Mongoose
I don't thingk so...Condottiere said:
That would require 3 firm points.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
High Guard agrees with you.
Since adjacent is one, and close is within ten klicks, it could still be an effective close support craft.
We could call the sandcaster David.
Since adjacent is one, and close is within ten klicks, it could still be an effective close support craft.
We could call the sandcaster David.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Solomani666 said:
Condottiere seems obviously correct, or am I missing something?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It's Schrodinger's Cat dilemma, at seventy you're both limited to two, and a comma later, limited to three firmpoints.
But at least you're still alive.
But at least you're still alive.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
That is a distinction without a difference; make the hull 70.001 dT and you can clearly have three firmpoints.
The rules are not written by a mathematician, but they are clear enough?
The rules are not written by a mathematician, but they are clear enough?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You could superglue a cat to the hull.
snrdg121408
Mongoose
Morning PDT AnotherDilbert,
My apologies for not replying sooner, I either did not receive a notification or totally missed the email about the post. Missing the email has the highest probability.
Yes, we are at an impasse since my understanding of barbettes being turrets is based on the Traveller Little Black Book 5 High Guard 1e (1979)/2e (1980), MT, TNE, T4, and Far Future Enterprises Classic Traveller/CT reprint softcover books. Traveller 20/T20 p. 271 indicates that barbettes "are little more than extra large turrets." GURPS Traveller/GT dumped the word "barbette" for heavy turret. Mongoose Traveller/MgT, as indicated earlier in the thread, on p. 25 indicates that "barbettes are effectively heavy turrets."
The barbette, per http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/turrets.htm, was a modification of a turret. The turret body was fixed in position and the top opened up to allow the by products of firing a gun in an enclosed space to dissipate to prevent the gun crew from passing out or worse dying. Apparently, the original GDW design team overlooked the details back in 1979/1980. GartheL noted that the term "barbette" is part of a modern turret.
Personally, the illustration of the Gazelle in JTAS No. 4, CT Supplement 7, and CT Supplement 9 reminds me of a casemate, http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/secondary-battery.htm. Of course back in 1978 when I purchased Traveller LBB 1-3 in the zip lock bag and then picked up LBB 5 1e in 1979 followed by LBB 5 2e in 1980 or 1981 there was only snail mail available to ask questions or make suggestions to GDW.
Based on the established material, with the exception of GT and including MgT, my opinion is that a barbette is turret.
My apologies for not replying sooner, I either did not receive a notification or totally missed the email about the post. Missing the email has the highest probability.
AnotherDilbert said:We can certainly disagree, but I do not think the intent of the rules are unclear or unrealistic in this context.snrdg121408 said:
Turret:
Heavy turret:
They do not use the same weapons...
Yes, we are at an impasse since my understanding of barbettes being turrets is based on the Traveller Little Black Book 5 High Guard 1e (1979)/2e (1980), MT, TNE, T4, and Far Future Enterprises Classic Traveller/CT reprint softcover books. Traveller 20/T20 p. 271 indicates that barbettes "are little more than extra large turrets." GURPS Traveller/GT dumped the word "barbette" for heavy turret. Mongoose Traveller/MgT, as indicated earlier in the thread, on p. 25 indicates that "barbettes are effectively heavy turrets."
The barbette, per http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/turrets.htm, was a modification of a turret. The turret body was fixed in position and the top opened up to allow the by products of firing a gun in an enclosed space to dissipate to prevent the gun crew from passing out or worse dying. Apparently, the original GDW design team overlooked the details back in 1979/1980. GartheL noted that the term "barbette" is part of a modern turret.
Personally, the illustration of the Gazelle in JTAS No. 4, CT Supplement 7, and CT Supplement 9 reminds me of a casemate, http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/secondary-battery.htm. Of course back in 1978 when I purchased Traveller LBB 1-3 in the zip lock bag and then picked up LBB 5 1e in 1979 followed by LBB 5 2e in 1980 or 1981 there was only snail mail available to ask questions or make suggestions to GDW.
Based on the established material, with the exception of GT and including MgT, my opinion is that a barbette is turret.
snrdg121408
Mongoose
Hello Condottiere and AnotherDilbert,
From PDF HG 2e p. 23 top of second column:
"A ship of less than 35 tons has one Firmpoint. A ship
of 35-70 tons has two Firmpoints, and a ship of 70-99
tons has three Firmpoints. Beyond this size, ships use
Hardpoints."
The instruction above is not clear in my opinion since the text states that hulls 35 to 70 tons have two firmpoints and 70 to 99 tons have three firmpoints.
As printed at first glance Condottiere's interpretation is, in my opinion, correct that a 70 d-ton can fit three firmpoints.
I believe that the publisher met that hulls greater than 70 to 99 d-tons can have three firmpoints, which means that a 70 d-ton hull can only have two firmpoints.
From PDF HG 2e p. 23 top of second column:
"A ship of less than 35 tons has one Firmpoint. A ship
of 35-70 tons has two Firmpoints, and a ship of 70-99
tons has three Firmpoints. Beyond this size, ships use
Hardpoints."
The instruction above is not clear in my opinion since the text states that hulls 35 to 70 tons have two firmpoints and 70 to 99 tons have three firmpoints.
As printed at first glance Condottiere's interpretation is, in my opinion, correct that a 70 d-ton can fit three firmpoints.
I believe that the publisher met that hulls greater than 70 to 99 d-tons can have three firmpoints, which means that a 70 d-ton hull can only have two firmpoints.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
The Following is pure opinion and should be read as such.snrdg121408 said:
As a GM I am often faced with such issues from the various rule sets I have GMed for. In the end I have realized that to worry about a rule such as this is a waste of my time. The intent is clear, 70 tons is the breaking point. And the real impact on a game is limited. If you made a 70 ton ship with three hardpoints how often would it really negatively impact an RPG session. Seldom I am sure. Unless you are playing a ship to ship battle every week, more often than not, it wouldn't even come up. So if you, as GM, want to allow a 70 ton ship to have three, go for it. If you want to limit them to two, go for it.
Either way, just have fun playing.
The previous opinion has been brought to you by one old GM. Opinions of others may vary. :mrgreen:
snrdg121408
Mongoose
A wet and windy Afternoon PDT Daniel,
Thank you for your GM words of wisdom. The text is not clear as written, regardless of the intent of the author, one could argue that the break point is 69 d-tons and hulls between 70 - 99 d-tons can have three firmpoints, especially if the designer wanted to fit three single turret or nine fixed mount weapons, depending on the weapon system involved.
However, you a correct in the bigger picture that whether or not a 70 d-ton hull has two or three firmpoints during a game session is not an issue.
On the other hand if the design is given official status and someone like me or someone's first contact is Mongoose Traveller tries to follow the design system in HG 2e there is a problem.
Thank you for your GM words of wisdom. The text is not clear as written, regardless of the intent of the author, one could argue that the break point is 69 d-tons and hulls between 70 - 99 d-tons can have three firmpoints, especially if the designer wanted to fit three single turret or nine fixed mount weapons, depending on the weapon system involved.
However, you a correct in the bigger picture that whether or not a 70 d-ton hull has two or three firmpoints during a game session is not an issue.
On the other hand if the design is given official status and someone like me or someone's first contact is Mongoose Traveller tries to follow the design system in HG 2e there is a problem.
-Daniel- said:The Following is pure opinion and should be read as such.snrdg121408 said:
As a GM I am often faced with such issues from the various rule sets I have GMed for. In the end I have realized that to worry about a rule such as this is a waste of my time. The intent is clear, 70 tons is the breaking point. And the real impact on a game is limited. If you made a 70 ton ship with three hardpoints how often would it really negatively impact an RPG session. Seldom I am sure. Unless you are playing a ship to ship battle every week, more often than not, it wouldn't even come up. So if you, as GM, want to allow a 70 ton ship to have three, go for it. If you want to limit them to two, go for it.
Either way, just have fun playing.
The previous opinion has been brought to you by one old GM. Opinions of others may vary. :mrgreen:
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It probably is seventy tonnes, being both double the sum of thirty five, and rounding up of thirty three and a third, as well as sixty six and two thirds.
snrdg121408
Mongoose
Hello Condottiere,
I created a table for a spreadsheet I'm building, I wish I could program using one of the computer languages, with the firmpoints occuring as follows. 10 =1, 35 = 2, and 71 = 3. Okay to be honest I have two tables with the second table of 10 =1; 35 = 2; and 70 = 3 which I've got as a back-up in case my interpretation was a bit off.
Condottiere said:
I created a table for a spreadsheet I'm building, I wish I could program using one of the computer languages, with the firmpoints occuring as follows. 10 =1, 35 = 2, and 71 = 3. Okay to be honest I have two tables with the second table of 10 =1; 35 = 2; and 70 = 3 which I've got as a back-up in case my interpretation was a bit off.
snrdg121408
Mongoose
Hello all,
I want to take another opportunity to thank you all for replying to this topic and do a little bit of a recap.
The original question was how many fusion guns, plasma guns, particle beam/CT accelerator weapons, and plasma-pulse cannons fit into a MgT 2e turret.
In most of the other Traveller rule sets fusion and plasma guns are limited to two weapons and CT accelerator weapons/MgT HG 2e beam weapons are one per turret.
I believe the response is that a turret can hold one, two , three, or four HG 2e weapons.
Small craft from 10 - 35 d-tons may have one firmpoint, > 35 and <= 70 d-tons may have two firmpoints, and hulls > 70 and <= 99 d-tons may have three firmpoints.
A small craft firmpoint, per MgT HG 2e PDF p. 23, is a fixed mount and that barbettes require two firmpoints/fixed mounts.
On hulls >=100 d-tons the maximum number of turret weapons that can be mounted to a fixed mount is three and since small craft firmpoint/fixed mount can also mount up to three weapons from the turret weapons.
Unfortunately, there is a disagreement on whether or not barbette weapons can used fixed mounts.
One side of the disagreement believes barbette weapons can not use fixed mounts because they are not turrets.
The other side believes based on earlier Traveller rule sets, with the exception of GURPS GT, and MgT HG 2e p. 25 indicates that barbettes are effectively large or heavy turrets that barbettes can use fixed mounts.
I may be wrong but if two small craft firmpoints/fixed mounts can handle a barbette wouldn't a fixed mount be able to handle a barbette weapon?
Technically speaking spinal mounts are fixed mounts and bays, at least from what I gather from MgT HG 2e and the other Traveller rule sets, are also in fixed mounts.
I think the above is an accurate recap, with the exception of barbette weapons. For my part any design I may post to the forum or possibly the Freelance Traveller e-magazine the turret weapons that are cross overs with the earlier Traveller rule sets will be limited to the earlier rules, with the exception of the quad turret which is not present in them. For weapons like the Plasma-Pulse Cannon I am considering one or two for the standard turrets and two or three in the quad turret.
Again thank you for the comments you have provided.
I want to take another opportunity to thank you all for replying to this topic and do a little bit of a recap.
The original question was how many fusion guns, plasma guns, particle beam/CT accelerator weapons, and plasma-pulse cannons fit into a MgT 2e turret.
In most of the other Traveller rule sets fusion and plasma guns are limited to two weapons and CT accelerator weapons/MgT HG 2e beam weapons are one per turret.
I believe the response is that a turret can hold one, two , three, or four HG 2e weapons.
Small craft from 10 - 35 d-tons may have one firmpoint, > 35 and <= 70 d-tons may have two firmpoints, and hulls > 70 and <= 99 d-tons may have three firmpoints.
A small craft firmpoint, per MgT HG 2e PDF p. 23, is a fixed mount and that barbettes require two firmpoints/fixed mounts.
On hulls >=100 d-tons the maximum number of turret weapons that can be mounted to a fixed mount is three and since small craft firmpoint/fixed mount can also mount up to three weapons from the turret weapons.
Unfortunately, there is a disagreement on whether or not barbette weapons can used fixed mounts.
One side of the disagreement believes barbette weapons can not use fixed mounts because they are not turrets.
The other side believes based on earlier Traveller rule sets, with the exception of GURPS GT, and MgT HG 2e p. 25 indicates that barbettes are effectively large or heavy turrets that barbettes can use fixed mounts.
I may be wrong but if two small craft firmpoints/fixed mounts can handle a barbette wouldn't a fixed mount be able to handle a barbette weapon?
Technically speaking spinal mounts are fixed mounts and bays, at least from what I gather from MgT HG 2e and the other Traveller rule sets, are also in fixed mounts.
I think the above is an accurate recap, with the exception of barbette weapons. For my part any design I may post to the forum or possibly the Freelance Traveller e-magazine the turret weapons that are cross overs with the earlier Traveller rule sets will be limited to the earlier rules, with the exception of the quad turret which is not present in them. For weapons like the Plasma-Pulse Cannon I am considering one or two for the standard turrets and two or three in the quad turret.
Again thank you for the comments you have provided.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
One issue is that fixed mounts take no volume, in the rules.
So assuming that a barbette houses at least four tonnes of a weapon system, that's not just a free lunch, it's a Hometown buffet.
So assuming that a barbette houses at least four tonnes of a weapon system, that's not just a free lunch, it's a Hometown buffet.
snrdg121408
Mongoose
Hello Condottiere,
Yes, a fixed mount takes no volume and can mount up to three weapons that are normally installed into an one d-ton turret. If one includes a quad turret which also takes up one d-ton of volume. All the weapons available to turrets listed on pp. 25 and 68 fit in a one d-ton turret that when attached on a fixed mount take up no volume.
A missile barbette, MgT HG 2e PDF p. 26, can fire five missiles in a single salvo and has enough missiles for five salvos. My understanding is that there are five missile racks/launchers in the barbette. A one d-ton turret can mount one, two, three, and when a quad mount is used four racks/launchers.
MgT HG 2e p. 68 lists the following turret weapons fusion gun, particle beam, plasma gun, and plasma-pulse cannon. In the earlier Traveller rule sets fusion gun, particle beam, and plasma gun are all standard weapons available for turrets. The difference is that a one d-ton turret could hold one or two plasma guns or one or two fusions guns, while the one d-ton turret could hold one particle beam/accelerator. MgT HG does not appear to have the same limits which means a one d-ton turret can hold up to four weapons and a fixed mount would be able to mount three.
Based on p. 25 I do not see how one can assume that a barbette houses four d-tons of weapons when we know that a one d-ton turret can house up to three or four of the same weapons.
Earlier in the thread I indicated that a fixed mount in my opinion probably could mount one torpedo launcher, which is what I guess is in a barbette. After some pondering I believe that the launcher has no reloads since according to p. 25 a torpedo barbette attached to a firmpoint, which per p. 24 is a fixed mount, holds three torpedoes.
Of course since the apparent consensus of MgT HG 2e rules is that barbettes are not turrets anything I might post to the forum or a magazine like Freelance Traveller would not have barbette weapons attached to fixed mounts in the same manner as the turret weapons on pp. 25 and 68.
However, I will use the same limits as for plasma guns, fusion guns, and particle beams from CT LBB 2 and LBB 5 for the single, double, and triple turrets. I'm still pondering on they fit into a quad turret.
Condottiere said:
Yes, a fixed mount takes no volume and can mount up to three weapons that are normally installed into an one d-ton turret. If one includes a quad turret which also takes up one d-ton of volume. All the weapons available to turrets listed on pp. 25 and 68 fit in a one d-ton turret that when attached on a fixed mount take up no volume.
A missile barbette, MgT HG 2e PDF p. 26, can fire five missiles in a single salvo and has enough missiles for five salvos. My understanding is that there are five missile racks/launchers in the barbette. A one d-ton turret can mount one, two, three, and when a quad mount is used four racks/launchers.
MgT HG 2e p. 68 lists the following turret weapons fusion gun, particle beam, plasma gun, and plasma-pulse cannon. In the earlier Traveller rule sets fusion gun, particle beam, and plasma gun are all standard weapons available for turrets. The difference is that a one d-ton turret could hold one or two plasma guns or one or two fusions guns, while the one d-ton turret could hold one particle beam/accelerator. MgT HG does not appear to have the same limits which means a one d-ton turret can hold up to four weapons and a fixed mount would be able to mount three.
Based on p. 25 I do not see how one can assume that a barbette houses four d-tons of weapons when we know that a one d-ton turret can house up to three or four of the same weapons.
Earlier in the thread I indicated that a fixed mount in my opinion probably could mount one torpedo launcher, which is what I guess is in a barbette. After some pondering I believe that the launcher has no reloads since according to p. 25 a torpedo barbette attached to a firmpoint, which per p. 24 is a fixed mount, holds three torpedoes.
Of course since the apparent consensus of MgT HG 2e rules is that barbettes are not turrets anything I might post to the forum or a magazine like Freelance Traveller would not have barbette weapons attached to fixed mounts in the same manner as the turret weapons on pp. 25 and 68.
However, I will use the same limits as for plasma guns, fusion guns, and particle beams from CT LBB 2 and LBB 5 for the single, double, and triple turrets. I'm still pondering on they fit into a quad turret.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Quite, that is undefined. We only know that weapon and mount together has a size of 5 dT.snrdg121408 said:
A barbette mounted to two firmpoints is still a movable mount, not a fixed mount. It holds two torpedoes (p26). A barbette always takes 5 dT.snrdg121408 said:
snrdg121408
Mongoose
Morning AnotherDilbert
We also know that a standard turret that mounts from one to four weapons always takes one d-ton of space and is also moveable, which allows hulls >= one hundred d-tons using a fixed mount/firmpoint to install up to three weapons without a turret takes up zero d-tons of space. Small craft are limited to mounting a turret that can mount only one weapon on a firmpoint/fixed mount with the majority opinion that a small craft firmpoint/fixed mount can install up to three weapons.
Update 10/19/16 8:35 PDT:
We know that up to three weapons can be installed without a one d-ton turret on a single fixed mount/firmpoint take up zero volume, but do have power and cost requirements.
Suggesting that an one shot torpedo launcher, which per p. 26 is a heavy anti-ship missile, can be mounted on two fixed mounts/firmpoints on hulls >= thirty-five d-tons does not appear to be unreasonable or at least no more unreasonable than a small craft firmpoint/fixed mount that can only mount a turret with a single weapon can carry up to three weapons on the same firmpoint/fixed mount.
Of course I prefer the majorities view on the small craft ruling of three weapons per firmpoint/fixed mount based on what modern military aircraft do on a routine basis. Civil aircraft can also be built with firmpoints/fixed mounts to carry fuel tanks or other non-military systems.
Oops my bad looks like my gorilla sized fingers, blurry vision after a sneezing attack hit the wrong key and my mind lied to me showing me a two instead of the three. Thank you for the correction.
However, since there appears to be a majority that do not agree I have stated that nothing that I might post to MgT, Freelance Traveller, or other magazine/forum will use a single shot torpedo launcher.
Since MgT does allow in the High Technology Chapter fusion gun, particle beam turrets, plasma gun, and plasma-pulse cannon turrets I will allow then to be mounted on fixed mounts/firmpoints at the required tech level, power and cost requirements.
AnotherDilbert said:
We also know that a standard turret that mounts from one to four weapons always takes one d-ton of space and is also moveable, which allows hulls >= one hundred d-tons using a fixed mount/firmpoint to install up to three weapons without a turret takes up zero d-tons of space. Small craft are limited to mounting a turret that can mount only one weapon on a firmpoint/fixed mount with the majority opinion that a small craft firmpoint/fixed mount can install up to three weapons.
Update 10/19/16 8:35 PDT:
We know that up to three weapons can be installed without a one d-ton turret on a single fixed mount/firmpoint take up zero volume, but do have power and cost requirements.
Suggesting that an one shot torpedo launcher, which per p. 26 is a heavy anti-ship missile, can be mounted on two fixed mounts/firmpoints on hulls >= thirty-five d-tons does not appear to be unreasonable or at least no more unreasonable than a small craft firmpoint/fixed mount that can only mount a turret with a single weapon can carry up to three weapons on the same firmpoint/fixed mount.
Of course I prefer the majorities view on the small craft ruling of three weapons per firmpoint/fixed mount based on what modern military aircraft do on a routine basis. Civil aircraft can also be built with firmpoints/fixed mounts to carry fuel tanks or other non-military systems.
Oops my bad looks like my gorilla sized fingers, blurry vision after a sneezing attack hit the wrong key and my mind lied to me showing me a two instead of the three. Thank you for the correction.
However, since there appears to be a majority that do not agree I have stated that nothing that I might post to MgT, Freelance Traveller, or other magazine/forum will use a single shot torpedo launcher.
Since MgT does allow in the High Technology Chapter fusion gun, particle beam turrets, plasma gun, and plasma-pulse cannon turrets I will allow then to be mounted on fixed mounts/firmpoints at the required tech level, power and cost requirements.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Now that quad turrets are a possibility, my take on the volume of the generic weapon systems meant to fit into a turret is one eighth of a tonne.
A generic human workstation is supposedly half a tonne, which would leave approximately four and a half tonnes to fit something into a barbette.
A generic human workstation is supposedly half a tonne, which would leave approximately four and a half tonnes to fit something into a barbette.
