[HG 2e] Aerofins and streamlining

Mongoose (and GDW) have always said here are our rules and game mechanics. Now go use them, abuse them and break them the way you like and enjoy. The rules evolve over the decades listening to the fans but still set a standard as a foundation. Most other companies make one set of rules that stay concrete up to when the RPG is no longer published while Traveller encourages 'messing' with their rules.

So enjoy aerofins as written, revile and ignore them or discuss them to death then play on.
 
Doesn't seem to hurt most scifi media and RPGs. Why does Traveller have to follow hard science or get labeled fantasy?
 
Not to be a dick (well, I am not trying but I may not be succeeding) but Traveller has never been hard SF. It's way closer to fantasy than most of us would care to admit, myself included.

I think I need to do some math to work out the answer to my question, (deceleration needed to drop from GSO on an Earth like planet and maintain the same position over the surface, to the surface) but I would like to hear your thoughts on why this isn't the best route.
 
Unless you plan on every adventure being another episode of 2001: A Space Odyssey there isn't much in scifi to model on that doesn't touch fantasy. Even 2300AD's stutterwarp could be declared by many as just another fantasy.
 
Our source of magic is the exploitation and manipulation of gravity, anything from recreating it or using it to punch a hole through to another universe.

Since no one has really figured out a way to get from point a to point b on an intergalactic scale, within a reasonable period of time, hyperspace jumping is an accepted trope of science fiction.
 
I think the way I would draw a line between hard science fiction and futuristic fantasy is that in hard science fiction, known science is extrapolated as far as possible to serve the needs of the story, and when that still doesn't allow for the needs of the story, additional science is invented, with rules that govern the invented science strongly enough to maintain self-consistency. In futuristic fantasy, there's no strong effort to make science behave according to strong rules, real or invented. However, I don't see it as a sharp line so much as a continuum.

The Martian is hard science fiction in the strictest sense; the only divergence from real science that I saw is that hydrazine is so toxic that even a trace of unburned fuel would have been very bad. (I'm not sure whether that's a tiny touch of creative license or just a slip-up.)

Star Wars is pretty much the other end of the scale. None of the science seems to operate according to any rules of than spectacle.

Star Trek is in between, conceptually, but not much in practice. There seems to be an attempt to aim for self-consistency in the science, but there was never much clear thought to define the rules of the invented science, so each writer chooses the rules for the episode or movie.

Traveller leans toward hard science, but doesn't go all the way there, though some editions have tried pretty hard. It breaks down here and there, often in cases where real science developed in directions that the original writers didn't anticipate (computers, for example), sometimes in cases where the original writers appeared not to understand real science (such as "mesons" that decay energetically after a specific time, rather than exponentially), and often in cases where invented science behaves badly (such as the possibility of relativistic planet busters based on reactionless maneuver drives). But in most cases, real science is respected, and major examples of invented science (jump drive, psionics, etc.) follow reasonably self-consistent rules.
 
I started writing a lengthy discourse on how Traveller is not and never has been hard SF.

But we've been there, done that.

I still haven't done the math on this:

"I think I need to do some math to work out the answer to my question, (deceleration needed to drop from GSO on an Earth like planet and maintain the same position over the surface, to the surface) but I would like to hear your thoughts on why this isn't the best route."

And, in keeping with the thread title, if anyone would like to do the math, I'm all ears (or eyes).
 
Drop pod with gravitational motors.

You draw a straight line from reentry point to the middle of the local gravitational field.
 
h1ro said:
With anti gravity, nothing need fly like an aeroplane. As mass doesn't figure into the ship designs, we have no idea how or even if, aerodynamic forces apply. If the technology to reduce mass and accelerate at multiple Gs exists, flying like an aeroplane is just so last century.

In part, my question also links into whether ships use their M drive to maintain an orbital position. Technically, a ship in orbit maintains it's altitude by velocity and while that does degrade slowly, in general there's very little thrust needed to maintain orbit. A ship maintaining orbit has a velocity relative to the surface, these days we use heat shields and atmospheric breaking to de-orbit. With anti gravity I'd say de-orbiting would be as simple as riding an elevator down and matching your speed to the speed of rotation of the planet below.
It may still be more efficient or better to fly like an aeroplane in some cases - for example, aircraft can pull high-G turns without necessarily having to have motor capable of generating 9G thrust.

If you're in orbit then the orbital velocity will keep you there indefinitely. However, low orbits are often within the outer reaches of the atmosphere so there is a small amount of aerodynamic drag. Not much thrust is needed to counter this, but satellites do carry small reaction thrusters to maintain their position.

In the last point, you're discussing what I might call a 'powered re-entry' In this case you use your M-drive to decelerate to a speed that's not going do damage your hull (it doesn't have to be zero W.R.T. the surface) and then re-enter the atmosphere at a slower speed. An 'unpowered re-entry' uses atmospheric breaking, which will be much harder on the hull of your ship. For safety reasons, anything intended to re-enter will probably be capable of unpowered re-entry in the event of a M-Drive failure - but it may require the hull to be re-furbished or at least re-certified afterwards.
 
Thanks for the reply.

The powered descent is what I'm thinking of. Adjusting orbital velocity for the specific altitude as the ship descends so that it maintains the same (or, as you say, similar) position over the surface.

Being math challenged I haven't calculated the decceleration needed to go from the orbital speed at geostationary orbit to landing on the surface. For Earth GSO is 42,164 km above the centre of the Earth which I think means the craft would be travelling at approximately 11,038 km/h. At surface level the velocity would be 1670 km/h

The ship has to lose approximately 9368 km/h of speed on it's descent.

Converting that to m/s we get GSO of 3066 m/s and surface 463 m/s. We need to lose 2600 m/s

1G is 9.8 m/s/s

Would it be right to say that at 1G we can lose 9.8m/s per second?

If so, that's 266 seconds, 4.5 minutes seems WRONG!

HAHA...

If that's right the vertical velocity is 134 km/s SPLAT!

OK, this is hurting my head now. What am I doing wrong?
 
h1ro said:
Thanks for the reply.

The powered descent is what I'm thinking of. Adjusting orbital velocity for the specific altitude as the ship descends so that it maintains the same (or, as you say, similar) position over the surface.

Being math challenged I haven't calculated the decceleration needed to go from the orbital speed at geostationary orbit to landing on the surface. For Earth GSO is 42,164 km above the centre of the Earth which I think means the craft would be travelling at approximately 11,038 km/h. At surface level the velocity would be 1670 km/h
[ . . . ]
Orbital mechanics are funny. The further out you get, the slower the orbital velocity yet the more energy held in the orbit - energy in an orbit is proportional to the area covered by the orbit if you look down a vector normal to the orbit. NEO is about 7 km/sec, GEO is about 3km/sec, but you still need the energy to get the satellite up into GEO. Also, you need some energy to lift the payload off the ground.

Roughly, on earth you need a delta-v of 10km/sec or so to reach LEO, and a further 3.8km/sec to reach GEO. I would suggest you don't bother trying to maintain a descent over a single point on the ground. Anywhere with a space station is going to have air traffic control and you will be able to take a course that's more convenient.

If you slow down a bit from GEO you end up in an eccentric orbit with a lower periapsis (periapsis is the lowest point of the orbit). You're not going to just stay over the same spot. As you fall to the periapsis then you will gain speed, just as if you were falling anywhere else. If your periapsis goes into the atmosphere then you can do an aerobraking manoeuvre a la Apollo, (which probably won't be good for your ship). If your periapsis is underground then you will end up doing a manoeuvre sometimes known as Lithobraking - which also may not be terribly good for your ship.

If, however you do a burn before periapsis you can slow down enough so that you can re-enter without cooking your ship or needing excesive heat shielding. If you burn enough so that your re-entry is at (say) 1-2km/sec then you can use atmospheric braking to take off the remaining speed, and just manoeuvre in the atmosphere to get to your destination. I don't think that anti-gravity tech would materially affect this.

I will re-iterate my suggestion to try playing with KSP if you want to get more of a handle on orbital mechanics. I'll leave this to Randal Monroe - https://xkcd.com/1356/
 
Thanks! I've avoided KSP cos well, I spend too much time in front of computers anyway and Kerbal could be the final nail in the coffin of never leaving bed or the house ever again...

That said, as we're also adding the ultra tech/magic of contra gravity, things change. What I'm trying to work out is if, thru the magic of CG, a craft could descend to the surface of a planet by simply matching the rotational speed? With gravity mostly ruled out of the picture and with drives capable of sustaining multiple G acceleration, this seems possible. I just suck at math...
 
I think it comes down to powered or unpowered re-entry.

With powered re-entry, you can use a brute force approach in dictating the speed and direction.
 
h1ro said:
Thanks! I've avoided KSP cos well, I spend too much time in front of computers anyway and Kerbal could be the final nail in the coffin of never leaving bed or the house ever again...
You know you want to. Feel the kerbal-ness passing through you. the DayStar is overrated - Who needs a life anyway?
h1ro said:
That said, as we're also adding the ultra tech/magic of contra gravity, things change. What I'm trying to work out is if, thru the magic of CG, a craft could descend to the surface of a planet by simply matching the rotational speed? With gravity mostly ruled out of the picture and with drives capable of sustaining multiple G acceleration, this seems possible. I just suck at math...
One could argue that it's possible; I just don't think it achieves anything. Actually having the items moving at orbital velocity works well, as there is no crashing hazard if the CG fails. Also, per Striker or FFS, CG actually uses quite a lot of power so trying to hold a space station up with it seems like an expensive way to do something pointless.

Most small craft or streamlined starships have manouevre drives capable of burning off 10km/sec or so to come out of orbit at safe speeds. With any sort of air traffic control, they can re-enter on any course that makes sense.
 
I agree that to maintain orbit, a ship should achieve the right velocity and power down most of it's drive. The idea of holding position in proximity to a planet without orbiting it is daft.

What I've been thinking of is how a ship with CG would descend to the surface, given that it can bleed off speed very easily without atmospheric breaking it should in theory, be possible to descend like an elevator. It may not be desireable to do so but I wasn't thinking of that just yet.

If a ship loses the need to use atmospheric breaking to bleed speed, it should also be possible for an unstreamlined ship to enter an atmosphere. It may be an a disadvantage to manoeuvre but it should be able to do it. If it's drives are rated to multiple G, it's not like the ship isn't braced for serious acceleration.
 
h1ro said:
What I've been thinking of is how a ship with CG would descend to the surface, given that it can bleed off speed very easily without atmospheric breaking it should in theory, be possible to descend like an elevator. It may not be desireable to do so but I wasn't thinking of that just yet.
anti-gravity (CT) ≠ artificial gravity (MT) ≠ contra-gravity (TNE).

CG simply negates the effect of gravity. If you engage CG you are no longer in orbit around a planet or star, but floating alone in space as the planet zips away. You will have the same velocity vector as the planet but it will accelerate away in its orbit around the star. The surface of the planet will turn away from you as the planer rotates. To keep up with the planet you will need a separate thruster system.

CG will not allow you to "bleed off speed" or accelerate.


I have no idea how anti-gravity or artificial gravity works since it can apparently produce thrust perpendicular to the gravity field, possibly without negating the force of gravity (since grav vehicles have been described as in orbit).
 
h1ro said:
If a ship loses the need to use atmospheric breaking to bleed speed, it should also be possible for an unstreamlined ship to enter an atmosphere. It may be an a disadvantage to manoeuvre but it should be able to do it. If it's drives are rated to multiple G, it's not like the ship isn't braced for serious acceleration.
This is possible in principle, but an unstreamlined ship is exactly that. If you were travelling at any speed (say 100m/sec or more) then an unstreamlined ship would be aerodynamically unstable, and possibly subject to parts getting torn off by the drag. Then, it may not have any landing gear or anything that would allow it to land safely. Belly or tail landing an unstreamlined ship would be an act of desperation that one might do in an emergency but it's really not going to be good for the ship - it's quite likely to be a one-way trip.
 
If you jump off the Empire State building, all things being equal, you go straight down.

So at what altitude in the atmosphere would that happen with a spaceship?
 
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