Heroes Review

[Plageman]

My guess is that you won't be able to branch out. Your starting class will determine the Tier II and Tier III Disciplines you'll learn.

However I think that the main complexity will come from the evolving Disciplines powers. While we know what to expect for Kai Masters and Kai GrandMasters, Mongoose has to do the same for the other classes !

 

[Zager Krahl]

Well, my suggestion will eliminate some of the difficulty around creating a unique Tier II and III class for each Tier I class, as some Tier I's will run together into a single Tier II, and some Tier II's will likewise run together into a single Tier III.

Come to think of it, what would the Tier III equivalent of a Vakeros be? Or a Border Ranger? Or an Ice Barbarian? Or the Kloon Sage?

 

[Random Code]

To me, this is where the RPG will deviate from the source material. In my opinion Kai Lords are more powerful than other classes so there is no Tier III (or even Tier II in my mind) equivalent of a Border Ranger, etc. I accept that for game balance purposes this may change, but I don't think its how the source material pans out, with the exception of things like Magicians of Dessi, Shianti, etc.

On another, similar, matter I think they've made some Tier I disciplines for the new classes too powerful when compared to the Kai ones. But, that's just my expectation for the game and source material.

 

[Plageman]

Tier II or Tier III of classes do not need to be that new. After all the Kai Disciplines are just getting better (and new names) but in the end except for the new Grandmaster Disciplines borrowed from other classes they are the same but better.

 

[Random Code]

Tier II or Tier III of classes do not need to be that new. After all the Kai Disciplines are just getting better (and new names) but in the end except for the new Grandmaster Disciplines borrowed from other classes they are the same but better.

Not trying to jump on, or challenge, you here just riffing off your post... But how do people think we can improve on the Border Ranger disciplines of adding your rank (yep, that's rank not a +2) to your PC's CS when making a bow attack and their other discipline of doubling damage done with such attacks? I think these are already very (even too) high powered for Tier I. What's going to happen at Tier II? Tier III?

I do think Mongoose have dropped the ball a little on these disciplines regarding allowing room for progression and bench marking against Kai Lords. The more I read them, the less impressed I'm getting. I think I'm going to have to house rule some of them significantly.

 

[Plageman]

Well due to the mechanisms of the game the archer may only have one shot before being engaged in melee so I wouldn't say it's that overpowered.

My gripe is more with combat mechanic itself which does not offer enough room for other actions than engage & hit tactics. If you just play it by the rules there is no way to dodge, block or feint an attack, no ability to take cover, jump over an enemy or quaff a potion.

 

[Random Code]

Well due to the mechanisms of the game the archer may only have one shot before being engaged in melee so I wouldn't say it's that overpowered.

Hmmm... Maybe, although I don't agree... Scenery, blockades, barracades, ranges, players fighting rank and file, etc would all allow for multiple shots in a combat. Lets not forget if a starting character is getting +5 to CS and doubling any EP damage to the target then they are quite probably killing opponents charging towards them in one go.

My point is: players are great at exploiting rules weaknesses. And there's a difference between great tactical play and just exploiting a broken bit of a system.

Additionally, a Kai Lord can have Weaponskill in a bow but only gets a +2 bonus to CS and no multiplier to damage. And they have the same issue with (maybe) only getting to use the bow once.

My gripe is more with combat mechanic itself which does not offer enough room for other actions than engage & hit tactics. If you just play it by the rules there is no way to dodge, block or feint an attack, no ability to take cover, jump over an enemy or quaff a potion.

That's really a completely separate issue to this thread (which is after all a review of the character classes in the HoM book). But, yeah, you do need to bring in some movement and minor action rules. I have some house rules on them. Very basic stuff but it does help.

 

[Plageman]

Hmmm... Maybe, although I don't agree... Scenery, blockades, barracades, ranges, players fighting rank and file, etc would all allow for multiple shots in a combat. Lets not forget if a starting character is getting +5 to CS and doubling any EP damage to the target then they are quite probably killing opponents charging towards them in one go.

If you check the gamebooks themselves, you usually have only one shot before being forced to melee the opponent. Since the rules are based on these, the folk at Mongoose may have followed that unwritten rule. BTW in some case when you failed hitting the opponent with the bow, you actually had a penalty for you first round because you had to draw a weapon.

My point is: players are great at exploiting rules weaknesses. And there's a difference between great tactical play and just exploiting a broken bit of a system.

True. But in this particular case I feel that it would be the signature attack of the Ranger and easily patched if needed. After you you need arrows to fire a bow and abusing it will simply make you run out of them faster.

Additionally, a Kai Lord can have Weaponskill in a bow but only gets a +2 bonus to CS and no multiplier to damage. And they have the same issue with (maybe) only getting to use the bow once.

Yeah sure but Kai Lords get +2 due to Mindblast and do get other advantages too.

 

[Random Code]

If you check the gamebooks themselves, you usually have only one shot before being forced to melee the opponent. Since the rules are based on these, the folk at Mongoose may have followed that unwritten rule. BTW in some case when you failed hitting the opponent with the bow, you actually had a penalty for you first round because you had to draw a weapon.

That's true.

The combat system was the bit that I thought they'd really do a lot of work on as its basically moving from a single player game to mulitplayer where players are going to want to try things, co-ordinate, and do all kinds of stuff.

True. But in this particular case I feel that it would be the signature attack of the Ranger and easily patched if needed. After you you need arrows to fire a bow and abusing it will simply make you run out of them faster.

Yeah, the rules are very easy to house rule and a patch to this discipline would be +4 CS rather than 'plus rank'. What's that? All of 10 seconds to type!

Yeah sure but Kai Lords get +2 due to Mindblast and do get other advantages too.

Yep, but I don't believe Mindblast was ever used in conjuntion with a ranged attack with your bow - although its years since I read all the books so I'm probably wrong on that. Anyway, a +4 bonus to CS (by spending 2 discipline slots) is not anywhere near a +5 to +10 bonus to CS (depending on PC rank) spent on one slot. I always thought Kai Lords were weapon masters. Even at Grandmaster level they don't get to the level of a 10th ranked Ranger which seems wrong.

Still, its all very easy to houserule.

 

[Plageman]

A Kai Master and later Grand Master can master multiple weapons and get a +3 CS and later +5 CS bonus to all of these. Same with the improved Mindblast, without spending ENDURANCE a Kai Grand Master add +4 CS to all attacks unless stated otherwise.

Maybe with the exception of the bow (must still check in the books) it means that a Kai Master always get at least a +2 CS, +5 if skilled in the weapon, and that a Kai Grand Master always get a +4CS, +9CS is skilled in the weapon. And he may get more if spending ENDURANCE. Quite a huge bonus I say !

 

[Plageman]

Back on the topic, I've found the weakest character class from the book, being the Kloon Sage.

Learning multiple Disciplines from other Characters in the group is uninspiring. Maybe it would have been better had this Discipline been able to copycat a Discipline but a the price of fixing it for a single adventure. Also this class is the only one where there is only 3 Disciplines listed in the book making the whole a bit stale.

 

[Random Code]

A Kai Master and later Grand Master can master multiple weapons and get a +3 CS and later +5 CS bonus to all of these. Same with the improved Mindblast, without spending ENDURANCE a Kai Grand Master add +4 CS to all attacks unless stated otherwise.

Maybe with the exception of the bow (must still check in the books) it means that a Kai Master always get at least a +2 CS, +5 if skilled in the weapon, and that a Kai Grand Master always get a +4CS, +9CS is skilled in the weapon. And he may get more if spending ENDURANCE. Quite a huge bonus I say !

I don't disagree per se but we're now comparing a Kai Grandmaster, the best of the best, better than all the rest (as Tina Turner was prone to bellowing out) with a Tier I character and he still falls short, never mind factoring in his ability to do double damage. Never mind that we don't know where the Ranger class is going to go in order to compare like for like. Next tier? + 20 CS? Triple or quadruple damage?

I therefore don't think the comparison is particularly beneficial. Well, I do, it kinda supports my assertion...

My point is the Kai are the heroes, no other class comes close. That's what the source material supports. The new rulebook appears to be breaking that in the name of game/character balance. That's great for some reading this but for me it isn't.

YMMV.

 

[Random Code]

Back on the topic, I've found the weakest character class from the book, being the Kloon Sage.

Learning multiple Disciplines from other Characters in the group is uninspiring. Maybe it would have been better had this Discipline been able to copycat a Discipline but a the price of fixing it for a single adventure. Also this class is the only one where there is only 3 Disciplines listed in the book making the whole a bit stale.

Yeah, old stumpy didn't get much love!

Perhaps he's one to ditch in favour of allowing all classes to have some Lore capability. In other words, crib his more mundane skills to support a talents and background option sub-system.

I think that's what I'll be doing.

 

[Plageman]

I therefore don't think the comparison is particularly beneficial. Well, I do, it kinda supports my assertion...

My point got diluted in the examples. A Kai Master or Kai Lord is able to train and exploit multiple weapons with high skill level (+9CS at magnakai, +13 CS if spending 1 END). The Border Ranger may ever only master one, the bow and as much as we know the Rank value may reset at each Tier !

Also as I said before you can easily gimp him by engaging him in melee where he is much weaker and remind him of checking his ammunitions. My feeling is that everyone need to shine at one moment or another and ultimately while the Border Ranger Tier III may hit hard and fast with a the bow, he will still lack the sheer versatility of the Kai Lord.

anyhow I agree with the fact that indexing the CS bonus on Rank is a bad idea. A fixed value, even if it is better than classic Weaponskill, would have been a smarter choice. Or even better making this Psi-surge like power: +5CS by spending 1 END, +3 CS if not.

 

[Random Code]

Yeah, like I said earlier, I think a +4 CS is the way I'll go then the damage one isn't that big a deal.

 

[Random Code]

Also as I said before you can easily gimp him by engaging him in melee where he is much weaker and remind him of checking his ammunitions.

... Although players would get round that by everyone carrying quivers for the uber-marksman. Yes, I've seen it done.

My feeling is that everyone need to shine at one moment or another and ultimately while the Border Ranger Tier III may hit hard and fast with a the bow, he will still lack the sheer versatility of the Kai Lord.

Like for like comparisons, yes. But a Tier I PC with one discipline outshining a Tier III Kai Grand Master with 2+ disciplines in use? I don't care about versatility. Versatility is overrated in most games when it comes down to specialised weapon abilities. ... I think we'll just have to disagree on this! :wink:

 

[Sir Brad]

Now I've got my book back, I'm giving it a proper going over, I'm going to modify some Disciplines, some are getting more powerful, others are to be Nerfed, and I'm going to bring the Tiers from the D20 edition in to the MPGB for the Brotherhood Spells. I'm a bit disappointed their are no Mountain & Stars only and Stars & Sky only Disciplines for the Knights of the White Mountain Character Type, after all they gave them a Rank 10 only power but apart from CS & WP how can you tell the two Sub-Types apart?

 

[Random Code]

Now I've got my book back, I'm giving it a proper going over, I'm going to modify some Disciplines, some are getting more powerful, others are to be Nerfed, and I'm going to bring the Tiers from the D20 edition in to the MPGB for the Brotherhood Spells. I'm a bit disappointed their are no Mountain & Stars only and Stars & Sky only Disciplines for the Knights of the White Mountain Character Type, after all they gave them a Rank 10 only power but apart from CS & WP how can you tell the two Sub-Types apart?

I really don't like how that discipline just basically makes them landholding knights with a 50GC stippend. To me I'd give that 'reward' as a role-playing freebie upon reaching a certain rank as significant responsibilities come with it as well. I'll be creating another discipline to replace that one when I begin my campaign.

It may be an idea to create one discussion thread for each class with proposed changes as I really can see me altering disciplines for each of them as well - up and down in power.

 

[Zager Krahl]

Hey, sounds like a good idea, those discussion threads.

As for the Kloon Sage picking up abilities from anyone else - is there a limit to how many abilities it may learn in this fashion? It would certainly make for some creative combos...

 

[Plageman]

Hey, sounds like a good idea, those discussion threads.

As for the Kloon Sage picking up abilities from anyone else - is there a limit to how many abilities it may learn in this fashion? It would certainly make for some creative combos...

The Discipline explicitly say that it can be take three times, so you have only three abilities learned from other players. The Kloon Sage has also another multi-Discipline which can be take five times and each time you must select a new subject or profession in which you are learned...

Continuing the overpower discussion thread I think the Dwarven gunner is even more over the top than the Border Ranger. With 2 Disciplines he get +Rank to CS AND + Rank to Damage PLUS he get x3 Damage modifier from shooting with the Bor Musket. Sure he can only shot every other round but with a third Discipline he may reload instantly on 10 - Rank Difficulty Test.

So a starting (Rank 5) Gunner Shoot a +5CS and each hit inflict (Base Damage + 5) x 3 ! on top of that he may shoot every round if succeeding on a 5+ roll. And of course he still has 2 more Disciplines to pick...

I'm also puzzled by the Ice Barbarian Disciplines which add +Rank to the Difficulty of Magic effects cast on him. Can someone get me an example of how that would work ?

In the end I think I'll remove all variable bonuses Classes get from Rank as it's too much unbalanced.