Giving up on Miniatures

[rgrove0172]

I started out our Conan campaign undecided about he use of miniatures. Ive never used them in my roleplaying, even after almost 30 years of gamemastering. Somehow, however, my recent miniatures skirmish gaming the last couple of years, must have tainted my gaming spririt as I just couldnt pass up the temptation of painting up all those cool Hyborian races and such.
Sadly, after only a couple sessions and $200+ in miniatures Im realizing why I never used them in the past. IT DOESNT WORK. No matter how many miniatrues you buy, you never have just the right one, and its a natural tendency of players to pay attention to the miniature instead of the GM decription. Im finding as cool as they may look, miniatures actually detract from the game rather than add to it. We've played our last game with miniatures Im afraid, and yes some of the players will blanch when they hear this but Ive always felt the detail and color are in the description of the GM and the imagination of teh players, not on the table.

Comments?

 

[Trodax]

Well, I do like to use miniatures in Conan, for me it just makes it much easier to keep track of things; where everyone is positioned, how many enemies there are left, and so on. I also write down everyones initiative count as well as hp loss (next to wounded NPCs) on my dry-erase mat.

Perhaps your problem is that your miniatures are too pretty; I can understand that your players pay close attention to what's on the table (rather than to your description) if you have minis that actually look like the NPCs in question. I use miniatures purely as markers to keep track of where everyone is positioned in a fight. Mostly I use counters (like the ones that were included in the Shadizar and Messantia boxes), but when I do use minis, I just take what I have. In the last game I ran, I used goblins as city guards, Warhammer beastmen as the elite guardsmen, and a big Chaos-demon as an Ape-man. My players are used to this, there is never any fuss about having the wrong mini ("why does that guardsman have four arms?" :wink: ) - they purely see the minis as markers. Perhaps if I actually had the "right" mini for every NPC they would start regarding the tabletop more as a diorama.

Just some thoughts; hope it was in any way helpful.

 

[thulsa]

No matter how many miniatrues you buy, you never have just the right one, and its a natural tendency of players to pay attention to the miniature instead of the GM decription.

I use paper counters instead of miniatures. I just flip through my collection of old (Marvel) Conan comics and find just the right picture for some guard, thief, sorcerer, demon, whatever. Then scan & scale, and print out a dozen or so (numbered) counters.

I have a few samples on this page:

http://hyboria.xoth.net/resources/index.htm

After having done this a few times for the first adventures I ran, I now have a collection of paper miniatures that cover 90% of typical Hyborian-age encounters. And I find it adds great atmosphere to the game compared to putting some generic marker (coins, dice, blank paper bits, etc) on the battlemat.

- thulsa

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

I found miniatures to be too expensive and, although a good hobby, too time consuming to paint and prepare. I use dice and beads and counters to represent and most of my gamers are experienced enough to use their imaginations or even just a quick dry erase board.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Miniatures=bad.
Imagination=good.

 

[GlassJaw]

Fixed it for you:

Miniatures=good.
Imagination=good.

I don't game without miniatures and I can't imagine how they would get in the way of "imagination". I guess if your players are so hung up on the miniatures themselves but I've never been in a game where the minis took away from the actual game itself.

 

[Evil_Trevor]

I like to use some form of visual aid if I can, as the night progresses and the alcholol takes effect actualy moving the minitures can become tricky, then someone Knocks a glass over.....

 

[Garet]

We use miniatures in about a third of our games. Mainly when the setup and area we are fighting in is a little more complicated than normal. Our small scale fighting is usually just descriptive.

 

[B_Steele]

If minis are distracting to your players, just have them arrange for the proper mini for their own characters if they want, and you simply use glass beads or pawn counters (you can buy them really cheaply) for all the bad guys. That way, you can just look at your players and say - the yellow beads are bandits, the orange ones are their guard dogs, and the red one...well, he looks like their leader.

It works well, and it leaves the players responsible for their own miniature if need be. You get to have the tactical view you want/need, but without having your players get confused about the axe-modelled swordsman.

Hope that helps,
Bry

 

[Trodax]

If minis are distracting to your players, just have them arrange for the proper mini for their own characters if they want, and you simply use glass beads or pawn counters (you can buy them really cheaply) for all the bad guys. That way, you can just look at your players and say - the yellow beads are bandits, the orange ones are their guard dogs, and the red one...well, he looks like their leader.

It works well, and it leaves the players responsible for their own miniature if need be. You get to have the tactical view you want/need, but without having your players get confused about the axe-modelled swordsman.

Yes, exactly, this is what I (sort of) tried to suggest in my post above. Just using something very simple, like glass beads, could help to take the focus away from the table, methinks. I mean, no one of his right mind could imagine that he is fighting a yellow glass bead (right?), so you're players will be forced to visualise something else. :wink:

 

[Dpetroc]

I only tend to use miniatures with large engagements, and for size purposes ("Oh, you mean it's THAT big..."). Anytime the party is fighting along side multiple NPC's (a ship boarding or a large scale battle), I only roll for the PCs engagements and role-play the rest.

Most of the time i don't have a problem (other than space) using miniatures and it actually helped get my wife into gaming (she loves painting them).

 

[emirikol]

I use paper counters instead of miniatures. I just flip through my collection of old (Marvel) Conan comics and find just the right picture for some guard, thief, sorcerer, demon, whatever. Then scan & scale, and print out a dozen or so (numbered) counters. I have a few samples on this page: http://hyboria.xoth.net/resources/index.htm After having done this a few times for the first adventures I ran, I now have a collection of paper miniatures that cover 90% of typical Hyborian-age encounters. And I find it adds great atmosphere to the game compared to putting some generic marker (coins, dice, blank paper bits, etc) on the battlemat.- thulsa

Thulsa! Youre the man! I've been using Steve Jackson's Cardboard heroes for about 20 years and I find them hugely useful. I never thought about using a print out from the marvel site...even though Thog keeps making an appearance in our game!!!

I take that back, we do use camels that way. I printed out a dozen or so and made them into 3D camels for D&D mini size usage.

The following mini's or 3D cardboard heroes have been a godsend for our ongoing campaigns:

1. Camels & horses (just use the color cardboard printouts making sure they're facing the same direction on both sides!)
2. Neanderthals - good for cannibals
3. Anybody with a bow
4. SJG's orcs (they don't have green skin..they're just hairy guys)
5. Apes
6. Tigers, lions, dogs, cheetah's (I use SJG's cardboard heroes for these too)
7. Any given mini-scaled printout from the Marvel site (now added
8. Saracen's, moors, etc.
9. Mongols
10. Egyptian figures (I found a bunch of these on a website that I printed out). If if find the site again, I'll post it.
11. African characters
12. About any midieval one will work for the Hyborian kingdoms
13. Some American Indians for picts

Others:
1. DOORS. These are so simple with cardboard. Just color a 2" high x 3" wide section in gray (pencil gray), add some cracks in the walls with a sharpie, and draw a door in orange/red with a black border. I then take a strip of clear packing tape to seal it over the top. Use triangle colums to hold it up (I use a 1/2" scale). The ones from the OD&D module
AC3: Dragon Tiles: The Kidnapping of Princess Arelina can easily be copied and reprinted.

2. BLACK Dominoes (laid flat) or pebbles for general battlemat walls. I detest vis a vis markers except in extreme circumstances. I think it looks too sterile and takes away from the game.

3. RIVER/stream sections. I use the crap out of the ones I got from: AC8: Dragon Tiles: Revenge of Rusak (Labelled AC3)

4. CLIFFS. I live in COLORADO, so I grab a couple fossil-infested flat from dinosaur ridge and my players love the 3D aspect.

5. A couple plastic tables/chairs/pillars. I bought these, but there's no reason why these couldn't be just made out of cardboard, scribbled brown with black lines on a black sharpie. EVEN A NON-ARTIST CAN DO THIS STUFF..TRY IT YOUR PLAYERS WILL LOVE YOU.

6. Buildings and walls can be bought in any number of 3D products. There are a ton of companies out there. I use the buildings and walls from the GREYHAWK 3D products as well as D&D CASTLES for 90% of our city adventures. I have so many cardboard buildings and crap just from those products, it's amazing. They're cheap, light, easy to assemble and add a TON to our games.

7. Modelling clay.

8. A couple plastic monsters. So what it's an Otyough! Did you describe it BEFORE you put it on the table? I've used everything from rubber duckies to rocks with green clay tentacles, and stained cotton balls for monsters before. It's the SIZE that matters

9. A cardboard boat downloaded and printed in color. It's abut 1/10th of the price of a plastic one that you might only use once! Dragon had one and there are new ones out there too.

10. A LARGER GAMING TABLE AND LARGER BATTLEMAT. It's amazing how much better play you can get by spending $15 on a 3/4th inch thick 4x8 sheet of plywood that you keep in your garage and then just bring in occasionally to stick on the kitchen table (use a rubber carpet non-sticky/non-skids to keep it from sliding while gaming)

CARDBOARD STUFF: All of these can be found with a simple google search and then just quickly scaled and any given paint program (e.g. MS Paint..comes with all PC computers) and printed on white cardstock.

I too find miniatures prohibitively expensive for the relatively small purpose they serve for presentation, but large importance for combat and movement.

Another advantage of non-mini's on the DM's side is that players don't confuse theirs with yours

If you describe something from a role-playing standpoint, players will remember..they're already used to seeing miniatures on the table..most players don't even care or look at them (except when they kill one and remove them from the table). Other than a basic paint job, you're generally overdoing it if you go beyond for an RPG.

I don't think it's absolutely necessary to always have the right miniature. Crap on the table is simply a representation for combat and movement. Heck, there are still people out there who use dice and gumdrops (although, this is my pet peeve..that an any use of elvthes' whatsoever on a Conan table

jh

 

[emirikol]

BTW, all of these things are available for instant download and printing!

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/classicDAndD/accessories

The sheer number of useful tiles, doors, walls, etc, you get with these two products is astounding. I've been using them for 20 years!


The FALCON series has a TON of town buildings and 2x3 grounds maps! http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/greyhawk
I find these to be absolutely necessary for any conan game where you want to create an atmosphere in a city (you guys play in cities right?).

I can't find the AD&D Castles supplement right away for download, but the castle wall sections go a LONG way for improving your game action with elevation and battles.

jh
P.s, there's some new stuff out there too now.

 

[emirikol]

repost

 

[emirikol]

I use paper counters instead of miniatures. I just flip through my collection of old (Marvel) Conan comics and find just the right picture for some guard, thief, sorcerer, demon, whatever. Then scan & scale, and print out a dozen or so (numbered) counters.I have a few samples on this page:http://hyboria.xoth.net/resources/index.htm - thulsa

BTW, if you make these 1.5cmx3cm with a little 1.5cm tab on the bottom, they could quickly be made into scale creatures to stack up against the PC's.


P.S. here's the website for SJG's 3D stuff. http://www.sjgames.com/heroes/

Anybody realize that SJG has a whole page on serpent men?

jh

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Fixed it for you:

Miniatures=good.
Imagination=good.

I don't game without miniatures and I can't imagine how they would get in the way of "imagination". I guess if your players are so hung up on the miniatures themselves but I've never been in a game where the minis took away from the actual game itself.

:lol: Thanks! :lol:

If the 'Goose does put out some nicely made minis, I would soften my stance and buy them, cause you gotta show the 'Goose some love.
I would only deploy them in combat sequences, then switch back to narration (i.e. imagination). I've been wanting to wage some full-scale massive battles (and toward that end have adapted Cry Havoc 8) ) but am currently using cheap, little paper cut-outs I've homemade, similar to those symbols you see in dusty tomes on military history (Alexander, Caesar, Napoleon, et al.).

 

[Strom]

I agree with Glass Jaw - miniatures, imagination and RPG's go hand in hand. You are only using the miniatures for combat situations. Just because you are strategically simulating the combat so it is realistically won or lost doesn't mean you can not imagine or vocally describe your action and/or the result of the roll. No limits. Not saying they are for everyone but using mins has really helped our game and allowed for few arguments on things like sneak attacks against or for the PCs. Also, say 10 rubes are attacking Conan - with or without minis you will have to roll 1 time for each rube. I imagine you are keeping track of them on a sheet of paper. There's no difference to doing that then having ten miniatures and keeping track of the rolls by individual mini. The point is - there are game mechanics with or without minis.

Also, I would go with a consensus with the group - if they don't mind not having miniatures then I wouldn't have them. But, if the group really wants them then I would keep them even though I may not want them. I think it is more important to have a game then to not game over something like using or not using miniatures. The GM should be flexible, IMO.

 

[rgrove0172]

Thanks for the input all - below a few comments

But, if the group really wants them then I would keep them even though I may not want them.

This is a nice sentiment, and I respect it, but when its my hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours bleeding away in the quest to provide miniatures, it becomes a personal issue - committed GM aside.

If the 'Goose does put out some nicely made minis, I would soften my stance and buy them, cause you gotta show the 'Goose some love.

Drool...... oh yeah, it would be heaven not to have to scour site after site looking for just the right historical mini to fit a Hyborian role.

most players don't even care or look at them (except when they kill one and remove them from the table). Other than a basic paint job, you're generally overdoing it if you go beyond for an RPG.

Im at a bit of a disadvantage here I suppose as my players are all long-time miniatures gamers. They DO look at the minis and appreciate a quality paint job. They do notice details and and do expect the miniatures to at least somewhat represent what they are gaming. The standard has been set by years of military miniatures gaming where the insignia on an infantryman's coat can generate hours of debate. Its for this reason also that the mentioned paper 2D stuff or haphazard 3D replacements arent an option. If I chose to use all tokens of some sort they would have to be quality, stylized and appropriate to setting. Ive designed some hand made chess like pieces and a board that looks like something you might see on a Hyborian noble's table. Stained and carefully painted it presents the right feel, along with some Byzantine looking statues at the corners and a middle eastern looking tablecloth underneath. This will be my alternative to minis, and its a stretch.

Crap on the table is simply a representation for combat and movement. Heck, there are still people out there who use dice and gumdrops

True enough but the minis do have an effect. Where a gumdrop doesnt place any sort of image into your head, a miniature will. You cant help it. Its the way the mind works. How many of you had your own idea of how Frodo looked before the films? Now who do you see when you read LOTR? Elijah right? Looking back on a game months from now I guarantee the players will recall the miniature you used for the Big Bad Guy rather than the description you give them.

If minis are distracting to your players, just have them arrange for the proper mini for their own characters if they want, and you simply use glass beads or pawn counters (you can buy them really cheaply) for all the bad guys.

This was actually suggested by one player. It would seem a reasonable solution but watching your brave hero confront rank after rank of bingo chits just loses something you know?

I don't game without miniatures and I can't imagine how they would get in the way of "imagination". I guess if your players are so hung up on the miniatures themselves but I've never been in a game where the minis took away from the actual game itself.

Maybe your experience has been different, but maybe youve never played with a bunch of military miniatures buffs that 1 minute into a game will automatically start making statements like - "Ill attack ole Bent Spear there" or "Somebody take out Red Pants" - comments related directly to the figure, not the character they represent. In our first game when I pulled a figure of a thief out for the 3rd time to represent a typical Shadizar alley thug - the reply was instant - "Hey its the guy from the bizarre again! Lets kill him again! Yeah!" Funny sure, but it distracts from the game. The fact that I described the figures as somewhat different from the cloaked and hooded miniature meant little.

I appreciate all our comments, really I do. It would seem I just have a different player dynamic with certain challenges Im going to have to deal with.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

It would seem a reasonable solution but watching your brave hero confront rank after rank of bingo chits just loses something you know?

LMAO! :lol:

Maybe I should stat out the fearsome bingo chit (Medium Outsider) and dreaded gumdrop (modelled after the famous "cubical gelatinous creature" [TM]).

 

[emirikol]

Ever use REAL jello? Now that's getting realistic!



jh