Fleet comparrisons

I am an avid wargamer and have been sucked into VAS by a friend of mine after playing a great skirmish between the Germans and the British. Even though I lost (poor Nazis...) I had a lot of fun and am eager to get the next game in. I was wondering what people thought of the fleets though... I have the rules and have been flicking through doing stat comparrisons and, although I appreciate it has to be "historically accurate", it seems the british and german fleets are horribly out gunned by the americans and japanese. I was hoping to set up a campaign with these four fleets, but not sure it is possible. Any advice?
 
In theory, the PL system is supposed to make the fleets equal. More powerful ships are put into higher PL's. (PL's are an out-of-game mechanism for balancing the game, not a ship classification or similar)

In practice, it just doesn't work for VAS because the ships have to be historically accurate. A ship can't be balanced to fit a certain PL because it has to reflect its real-life capabilities. As an example in ACTA, the Sagittarius was considered overpowered, so its hull value was decreased, making it easier to destroy. If they tried to balance the Yamato for example by reducing the guns or removing the torpedo belt, then it would break the historical accuracy.
 
I would keep the pacific fleet seperate to the Atalantic fleet for friendly games. I've not gone to a tourney yet, but I would guess the really competitive will have a US fleet.

If you play by the year of introduction you may exclude some of the later, more powerful ships. Most of the RN was built pre 39.

A campaign will be tricky unless you balance the players with the lists - most of the time you know who the good players are in a group, even if they've not played this particular systee. Give them the German and RN fleets.

The other option if you're after a four way campaign is RN, KM, Italian navy and Soviet navy...

I'd be really interested to hear about the progress of a campaign, as I'd like to run one as well.

regards
Si
 
Thanks for the advice. Shall keep you posted. I appreciate historical accuracy casues problems, but with this in mind would it not have been better to points cost the ships instead of putting them into priority levels? At least this way it would balance it for games vs say the germans and americans.

Simon
 
Yes I agree a points system would have been much more suitable for VaS. PL works for ACTA because ships can be balanced to fit into the levels. But they can't for VAS, therefore the PL system really doesn't work.
 
Good to know someone else agrees. I am not saying they should write this into the revised rules, but perhaps an alternative points system could be produced by mongoose and the fans? I am sure this would work better for campaigns to balance the fleets.

Simon
 
Ultimately, even a points system is arbitrary. The best cure for this, is, of course to use historical match-ups. Date of introduction is a huge cure, as many of the more powerful ships were not in service until the war was well advanced.

The US navy is a pretty different animal in 1941 than she is in 1945. The Japanese Navy started the war as one of the most advanced and modern in the world. The Japanese "got" naval air power early. VaS downplays the importance of air power, of course, so this advantage is lessened.

In contrast, the british and the germans did not develop as dramitically, they sort of stay at 1941 levels throughout. The Italian navy and the french navies are actually quite modern, but do not get much credit, as they did not participate as heavily in the war.

The differences most people see, are of course in Battleships and battlecruisers. When you get into the level of cruisers and destroyers, you have realtive parity, for a variety of reasons. But fleet selection is left up to the players, and the US and Japanese have access to the dreaded Yamato and Iowa classes. Below these ships, there is again relative parity: the Kongo and Nagtos are not that much improved over the Hood or Bismark.

Of course, ultimately, a game is not decided in list building. This is a concept I can never successfuly convey to my WH40k playing freinds, who, when they lose, try to find ways in which my list is cheesy because my list beat them.

You don't lose to a list, and you don't win with one. You win or lose as a player. Know your ships, know what they can, and can't do, and know your objectives. Then play your game as best you can, and hope for the luck of the die.

Ultimately, in this game, a Yamato whose player rolls few hits is less dauntng than a queen elizabeth whose player is rolling fives and sixes. This sor of this is impossible to balance, and even a points system will not make it completely fair.
 
True of course luck of the dice roll is what ultimately wins. But that is what "balance" is about in a game. Given equal player skill, both players should have the same chance of winning.

As it is, a US player will beat a RN player of equal skill if they have the same amount of luck. It is a dice roll yes, but it is a biased dice, not a fair one.
 
It's just typical of the UK that our front-line, brand-new battleships were basically inferior to the Americans and others. We invariably give our forces turkey units as often as decent ones, and the Lords of Admiralty, in their wisdom, have made some utterly moronic decisions over the years.

Still, when I get into VaS I'll play the RN and be damned to Johnny Foreigner and his "superior" ship classes. Britannia rules the waves, and I'll remind any upstart colonial or Nipponese of that fact whenever necessary...
 
All valid points, and I see where you are coming from about the points buy. I do agree that the player means more than the army list, as ultimatley their tactics is what wins, but obviously luck of the dice on the day helps. I just think that a little more balance would make the game more accessible to the majority of players. After all, despite the fun, it gets annoying for the german player can never win against the US, who pounds them at range, at which the germans are meant to be superior, and laughs!

In service dates obviously help with some of the balance, and of course some navies were superior which is nicely reflected, but I just feel you should be able to face any of the sides off against each other and not be able to predict the winner so easily.
 
I'm not sure I agree that fundamentally a RN player will always lose to the USN player... each fleet has their own little advantages. You just need to be a bit clever in your ship choices and tactics...
after all, the Devious will always overcome the Mighty :)
 
In contrast, the british and the germans did not develop as dramitically, they sort of stay at 1941 levels throughout.

Well, by 1941 the RN had one of the most advanced battleship classes in the world, and the change in carrier operations and out-of-area deployments between 1941 and 1945 was second only to the USN. I'd say that was pretty dramatic.

It's just typical of the UK that our front-line, brand-new battleships were basically inferior to the Americans and others.

Not that they were, of course, other than main armament, and that proved quite capable of dealing with the surface-based thrweat that the KGVs encountered, even if that was a sample of one! Move on to the Lions and you see a ship on a par with the best in the US and better than anything else on the stocks or in (practical) design, and even the Vanguard was rather good - often regarded as superior to the Iowas in many ways other than main armament, which again was sufficient - having said that there is a strong body of opinion that the SoDaks and North Carolinas were actually superior, or at least much better designs that the Iowas which have been described as "wasteful"

The best cure for this, is, of course to use historical match-ups.

And even better is historical based campaign gaming. If set up right a proper campaign will allow you to explore and understand the synergy between various fleet units and supporting services in a way that a simple one-off game can never do.
 
I just see it as a game where collecting one fleet is not really possible. I mean you really need RN and Germans, or USN and Japanese, for one off games. I do really see your point though about RN and USN and I think that using in service dates make a huge difference on inspection. I mean limit it to 1941 and earlier and a lot of the US ships are no-go which cuts down their power quite a lot. Same for the japanese to a certain extent. I suppose the only way is to play some more games and see how it works, I mean the game is still good and I enjoy playing it a lot. I can just see that in the future it will get frustrating when your favourite fleet just keeps on loosing :wink:

I do however think that Mongoose have made a mistake at not making this points based, but keeping it like ACTA with its priority levels. I suppose you could rectify this my giving you multiple ships for one choice at a particular priority level to make the matching better, but I think this might just get over complicated!
 
even the Vanguard was rather good - often regarded as superior to the Iowas in many ways other than main armament, which again was sufficient
Vanguard was more seaworthy than the Iowas, and a stabler gunnery platform in high seas. consequently in NATO wargames she was proven to be more accurate with her main armament.

course, she's British as well, which helps her superiority ;)

As for the points issue, I personally think that PLs and Points should be completely disregarded. As wargamers we're all quite capable of coming up with some plausible scenarios with winnable objectives for both sides.
however, even with PLs I don't really mind that some fleets don't end up well matched. There are no battles at sea where you can say both sides were evenly matched.
You just need to take what you have at your disposal and use them as best you can. Just like those poor under strength commanders that often found themselves fighting superior foes!
 
I see exactly what you are saying, and I think that is fine in one off battles, but looking at a campaign I think it might fail. I mean if people want to play all countries then clearly the Americans or Japanese are going to walk away with the campaign. I know it is the taking part that counts, and the buzz players will get when a superior force gets crushed every so often by some good tactics/luck, but generally I think it is going to put off players.
 
well, I still say that the British have some top of the range ship choices out there if they're in the OOB, such as the Indefatigables. maybe even Audacious', Maltas and Lions if we're going into the realms of theoreticals.

I'll gladly play British in any tournament against Yanks and Japanese. partly because I like being an underdog, partly because people often underrate the ships, but mostly because I reckon they're quite capable of winning.
 
You are right there, the british do look good, but it is just a shame about the poor old Nazis! I cannot see them ever doing very well unless we delve into some of their theoretical ships!
 
i don't know, what about the Bismark? they're cruisers aren't too shabby either, would rate them vs. Councy Class or Leander Class, and their destroyers are just a dream!
 
Back
Top