Fleet comparrisons
- Thread starter vallance_simon
- Start date
Tactics and luck do count for a lot.
Also skirmish and patrol choices for most fleets are fairly equal, it is raid and above that you see imbalances, and even then it is only the super AP equipped ships that throw the balance out.
OOB fixes some balance problems and historical inaccuracies. I'll put it this way, if OOB was out in time for the tournament I would voluntarily take a French fleet.
Also with all the new battle choices in OOB, people may take less war level ships in favour of double the number of battleships. Because Great War superdreadnoughts rock.
Also skirmish and patrol choices for most fleets are fairly equal, it is raid and above that you see imbalances, and even then it is only the super AP equipped ships that throw the balance out.
OOB fixes some balance problems and historical inaccuracies. I'll put it this way, if OOB was out in time for the tournament I would voluntarily take a French fleet.
Also with all the new battle choices in OOB, people may take less war level ships in favour of double the number of battleships. Because Great War superdreadnoughts rock.
vallance_simon
Mongoose
Well that is encouraging. I shall look forward to OOB. When is the release date?
vallance_simon
Mongoose
Don't worry... have put a pre-order in with Mongoose.... I am such a sucker for wargames!
jbickley00
Mongoose
Well the people who say the Iowa was wasteful have the luxury of basing thier opinions on the fact that the Iowa Class ships never went toe to toe with battleships. There is a certain design efficiency in the NC and SoDaks, but they were never going to be as fast as the Iowas. or the carriers. The NC and SoDak were treaty Battleships, whereas the Iowa's only design limitation was beam. Speed is a function of length to beam ratio, and the beam limitation was set by the Panama Canal.
On the wargames table, if the other guy is bringing Yamato, I am damned glad to have an Iowa, in any system VaS or CD of Battle Stations.
With respect to RN battleships, I discount the Vanguard, because ultimately she was not commissioned until 1946, after the war ended. She was a very capable ship, but was not exactly a WWII ship. Undoubtably she was very sea worthy, but she was undergunned relative to state of the art in 1945, at least in my opinion-her guns were from the same design that had appeared orginally on the Queen Elizabeth class in like 1915.
The KGV was a modern battleship in 1941, but was less so by 1945. Still it was a fine all around class of ship, despite not being the super weapon the Admiralty wanted it to be in December 1941-this is the lesson of Prince of Wales.
The US Navy, on the other hand, expanded rapidly adding, two new classes of battleships after the commencement of the war. It went from a fleet of 6 carriers to a fleet of over 20 Fleet carriers and a huge number of escort carriers. While the RN did have a large increase in the number of escort Carriers (many of which were built by the US and given to the RN), the RN never deployed fleet carriers at the same levels the US did, it simply did not build that many, and a good portion of the RN carriers were pre-war designs.
None of this takes away from the bravery, courage and capabilites of RN crews and ships. RN crews were top notch and her vessles were solid. Frankly I think the assumption that a US or Japanese fleet would automatically loose to a US fleet is sort of preposterous. There might be small differences in quality at the top end, but the biggest mistake you can make is to think you have the game locked because you brought a Yamato and your opponent only borught a KG V, or a Bismark or a Littorio, or a Richelieu.
On the wargames table, if the other guy is bringing Yamato, I am damned glad to have an Iowa, in any system VaS or CD of Battle Stations.
With respect to RN battleships, I discount the Vanguard, because ultimately she was not commissioned until 1946, after the war ended. She was a very capable ship, but was not exactly a WWII ship. Undoubtably she was very sea worthy, but she was undergunned relative to state of the art in 1945, at least in my opinion-her guns were from the same design that had appeared orginally on the Queen Elizabeth class in like 1915.
The KGV was a modern battleship in 1941, but was less so by 1945. Still it was a fine all around class of ship, despite not being the super weapon the Admiralty wanted it to be in December 1941-this is the lesson of Prince of Wales.
The US Navy, on the other hand, expanded rapidly adding, two new classes of battleships after the commencement of the war. It went from a fleet of 6 carriers to a fleet of over 20 Fleet carriers and a huge number of escort carriers. While the RN did have a large increase in the number of escort Carriers (many of which were built by the US and given to the RN), the RN never deployed fleet carriers at the same levels the US did, it simply did not build that many, and a good portion of the RN carriers were pre-war designs.
None of this takes away from the bravery, courage and capabilites of RN crews and ships. RN crews were top notch and her vessles were solid. Frankly I think the assumption that a US or Japanese fleet would automatically loose to a US fleet is sort of preposterous. There might be small differences in quality at the top end, but the biggest mistake you can make is to think you have the game locked because you brought a Yamato and your opponent only borught a KG V, or a Bismark or a Littorio, or a Richelieu.
Vanguard probably could've been completed in wartime, but I believe construction priority was for escort craft and carriers in favour of a new battleship.
The correct decision IMHO!
as for the 15" guns, they were an economy. RN had them spare
and if they thought anything heavier was actually necessary they probably would've built them in. the British 15" gun was a capable weapon, and certainly proved it's worth during the war!
but my original point - she was a much more stable weapons platform that the iowas and had much better seakeeping qualities.
I don't believe the Iowas are usless. if they were they wouldn't have lasted this long. I'm just saying i reckon Vanguard was a more efficient ship. But my grandfather served on her so i'm a bit biased, i'm afraid!
on the wargames table, you are quite correct. if i'm facing the Yamato i'd like an iowa.
I once took her on with the Littorio, and the four WW1 battleships from the italian fleet. lost 3 of them before i finally cornered her!
The correct decision IMHO!
as for the 15" guns, they were an economy. RN had them spare
and if they thought anything heavier was actually necessary they probably would've built them in. the British 15" gun was a capable weapon, and certainly proved it's worth during the war!but my original point - she was a much more stable weapons platform that the iowas and had much better seakeeping qualities.
I don't believe the Iowas are usless. if they were they wouldn't have lasted this long. I'm just saying i reckon Vanguard was a more efficient ship. But my grandfather served on her so i'm a bit biased, i'm afraid!
on the wargames table, you are quite correct. if i'm facing the Yamato i'd like an iowa.
I once took her on with the Littorio, and the four WW1 battleships from the italian fleet. lost 3 of them before i finally cornered her!
jbickley00
Mongoose
The Vittorio Venetto and the Littorio are both excellent ships, even without the (arguably) deserved super AP rating, and Radar, they are dangerous.
Are you down in Langton miniature country Wishbone? Aren't they out of Truro?
Are you down in Langton miniature country Wishbone? Aren't they out of Truro?
vallance_simon
Mongoose
I think, under the right circumstances, the US, Japanese and British can stand well against each other. I just think the Germans are a little under powered. For one I am surprised that the XX1 sub is slow loading for example.
With VAS I think you are underestimating the use of Radar too. also don't forget now that OOB is out some of the ships have been reclassified. So for instance I would happily take 2 Nelson classes again 1 yamato anyday. Armour class upgraded to 6 and radar and downgraded to war . Now tell me who would win that one please. 18 guns with ap versus 9 guns with super ap. total 70 damage points versus 54 damage points. And again since the super ap yanks are all war then I would take 2 nelsons again for the same reasons. So to say the Brits would be outgunnned and beaten easily is way off the mark I believe. I do agree the germans would have problems though and I think you won't see many german fleets in tournaments. One easy way to limit the big ships in tourneys is to start the game at 5 points Raid level Buy the Yamato or Iowa and you are putting all your eggs in one basket
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MektonZero
Mongoose
Of course if the desire is simply to play a "fair" game, there is a solution.
Each player examines his opponents fleet, then secretly writes down which fleet they want to play. If both players want their own fleet, go right to play. If both players want the opposing fleet, switch sides and go right to play. If both players want the same fleet, bidding begins.
Bidding starts at 0 initial damage points, by the player who brought that fleet and goes up from there. The highest bidder gets to play that fleet with the bid number of hull damage points already assigned to his highest PL ships (his choice if more than one). In the highly unlikely case this removes a ship from the table and there are damage points left, continue assigning them to the highest available PL ships until all are assigned.
This method is fair in that each player is in agreement that his fleet can match or best the opposing fleet. If a player thought they couldn't win, they would up the bid by another damage point and play the other fleet instead.
Each player examines his opponents fleet, then secretly writes down which fleet they want to play. If both players want their own fleet, go right to play. If both players want the opposing fleet, switch sides and go right to play. If both players want the same fleet, bidding begins.
Bidding starts at 0 initial damage points, by the player who brought that fleet and goes up from there. The highest bidder gets to play that fleet with the bid number of hull damage points already assigned to his highest PL ships (his choice if more than one). In the highly unlikely case this removes a ship from the table and there are damage points left, continue assigning them to the highest available PL ships until all are assigned.
This method is fair in that each player is in agreement that his fleet can match or best the opposing fleet. If a player thought they couldn't win, they would up the bid by another damage point and play the other fleet instead.
the PL thing is mainly for tournament play though isn't it. I personally don't play in tourneys, too much beardiness for me to actually enjoy it, but as I said a little earlier playing with the revamped PL listings for some of the capitlal ship dowgraded form war to battle make the respective fleets a much more attractive alternative. Also now thatmost british destroyers are now agile and subhunters and the fact that subs and Jap cruiser now have limited torpedo reloads doesn't make them such attractive choices anymore. So all in all I think Mongoose have done a great job in balancing the fleets out.
