Did anyone manage to fix Classic Traveller: High Guard?

[Anonymous]

That's weird. Merely for being there four turns each side's ships now ignore the other side's line of battle to attack the Reserves OR it mean the one side attacking the Reserve is now a target for their enemy's Line of Battle AND Reserve forces on the second turn.

Yea you have to declare who's doing it or they pass each other and one side goes WTF? So it's not quite that simple.

We are thinking of implementing something similar to how F&E (Federation & Empire) does approach battles. In this system only static targets like planets, bases or very slow ships like freighters are attackable. If you want to hunt a specific ship, you can't. Space is too big and if they scatter you can't tell which is which. The player is required to put a certain minimum number of ships into a battle line, but doesn't have to add a specific one, so it may be quite a while until the number of ships is low enough that the player has to put that specific one into the line due to minimum size or flagship requirements.

This may have issues in Traveller due to the large difference in speeds (not everyone has 6-G). However, I strongly suspect that all warships will be 6-G if a strategic rule like this is implemented, so perhaps just say anyone with 5-G and under counts a stationary target like a base or planet, and anything with 6G can't be specifically hunted unless it's refuelling, or defending an installation etc.

More testing is required.

 

[phavoc]

I suggest you look at some naval board games and see how they treat their lines of battle. After all that's where the concept originated (naval warfare, not boardgames). Remember that Traveller doesn't consider some things (like how a defending battle line can keep the distance while traveling away from attacker when their engines are pointed in the opposite direction).

To accommodate the vagaries of Traveller ship warfare you are going to have to keep things a bit blurry. Unless you plan on having the two fleets engaging with their broadsides while everyone travels in the same direction.

 

[Anonymous]

I suggest you look at some naval board games

Remember that Traveller doesn't consider some things (like how a defending battle line can keep the distance while traveling away from attacker when their engines are pointed in the opposite direction)

I agree with you about looking at old style naval combat games, probably from Age of Sail up until World War 2.

Classic Traveller uses thruster plates that can emit thrust in any direction. Fighting in retrograde is not a problem for them. The books had equations for interplanetary travel times assuming a turn about half-way, but later sources defined the drives as being able to change direction of thrust freely, and they never put maneuvering thrusters on their ship diagrams.

 

[cavebear]

I suggest you look at some naval board games

Remember that Traveller doesn't consider some things (like how a defending battle line can keep the distance while traveling away from attacker when their engines are pointed in the opposite direction)

I agree with you about looking at old style naval combat games, probably from Age of Sail up until World War 2.

Classic Traveller uses thruster plates that can emit thrust in any direction. Fighting in retrograde is not a problem for them. The books had equations for interplanetary travel times assuming a turn about half-way, but later sources defined the drives as being able to change direction of thrust freely, and they never put maneuvering thrusters on their ship diagrams.

While it is true that the thruster plates can emit thrust in any direction there was a limit that was written about in the Megatraveller Starship Operator's Manual Vol. 1
I will try (for the first time so bear with me if I don't get it right at first) to upload a scan I just did of the relevant info plus diagram.

Okay I got a notification that said "Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached." so how do I put up a 107 k pic?

Well I guess I can email it to anyone who wants it but that is not as useful as being able to post it.

 

[Anonymous]

Okay I got a notification that said "Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached." so how do I put up a 107 k pic?

upload it to a pic hosting site and post a link here.

Be careful tho, I think you'll be breaching copyright posting it. I don't know if its that big of a deal but be advised.

 

[cavebear]

Okay I got a notification that said "Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached." so how do I put up a 107 k pic?

upload it to a pic hosting site and post a link here.

Be careful tho, I think you'll be breaching copyright posting it. I don't know if its that big of a deal but be advised.

Aware. Should be good though. try here:

 

[Anonymous]

Do they say how long it takes to rotate through 180 degrees?

That way they could cut the power, flip the ship 180 while drifting, fire, flip 180, resume power.

 

[phavoc]

The other versions of Traveller posit maneuver drives as plain Ole rocket, just far more efficient and powerful. Which is why when maneuvering or travelling you have to rotate at your halfway point to slow down to reach your destination.

Traveller has, for the most part, kept the drive science pretty close to science (but never really delved into what all that meant or affected things). I suppose if you mounted your engines on gimbals and rotated them as opposed to your ship you could be more maneuvable, but with the rules as they are there isn't a need.

 

[cavebear]

Do they say how long it takes to rotate through 180 degrees?

That way they could cut the power, flip the ship 180 while drifting, fire, flip 180, resume power.

Just finished reading the section over and there is no mention of how fast it can rotate.

 

[Reynard]

Considering the duration of ship combat turns, maneuvering times are already figured in. Spinning a ship should be fairly quick. Mongoose Traveller never really states how maneuver drives specifically function. A couple editions have the gimbaled thruster plate so realigning is no issue. Marc Miller's Traveller and Traveller: The New Era introduce self-contained thrusters and the HEPlar which seems to be the 'realistic' TL 10 Maneuver drive. These would definitely need thruster jets around the hull of the ship for pitch, yaw and rotate but even so the time to reposition the vessel should be minimal again compared to a game turn and still not Star Wars fighter maneuvers or lumbering capital ships.

 

[Infojunky]

Remember Spinal Mounts always bear in HG, it is the secondary batteries and bays that have limitations on how many bear in a firing round.

Mostly it is assumed that within a turn ships can freely rotate to bring specific batteries/weapons to bear, in that the amount of energy that it takes to rotate a ship is miniscule when compared to the amount applied in trusting for vector.

 

[phavoc]

Remember Spinal Mounts always bear in HG, it is the secondary batteries and bays that have limitations on how many bear in a firing round.

Mostly it is assumed that within a turn ships can freely rotate to bring specific batteries/weapons to bear, in that the amount of energy that it takes to rotate a ship is miniscule when compared to the amount applied in trusting for vector.

Agreed. But this is where you get the head scratching even though the rules don't point out a violation. Traveller says you accelerate in the directions your engines are pushing you. The weapons rules say that you can ALWAYS bring your weapons to bear against a target. And the head scratching begins when you try to figure out how you are able to accelerate, spin 180 degrees while not accelerating, fire your spinal mount, spin 180 degrees, then accelerate again and still maintain your total G rating while somebody is chasing you. It's all allowed by the rules...

This is why Traveller space combat doesn't hold up well if you dig just a teeny bit below the surface.

 

[-Daniel-]

This is why Traveller space combat doesn't hold up well if you dig just a teeny bit below the surface.

And this is why, in some areas, I not only do not dig, I don't even scratch. :mrgreen:

 

[Reynard]

It's a very cinematic 6 minutes. Still, rotating a ship to maneuver and target is not that time consuming. Naval vessels DREAM of having a spaceship's turning ability! This is why we are only concerned with the distance achieved in a round. It does, in fact, work very well. Don't overcomplicate things.

 

[phavoc]

It's a very cinematic 6 minutes. Still, rotating a ship to maneuver and target is not that time consuming. Naval vessels DREAM of having a spaceship's turning ability! This is why we are only concerned with the distance achieved in a round. It does, in fact, work very well. Don't overcomplicate things.

The problem is that the travel formula's assume constant acceleration, turnover, then constant deceleration. No battle, no maneuvers, etc. Plus even though you have anti-gravity, you STILL have mass to deal with... not to mention straight up physics in regards to how acceleration works. Assuming you cut your drives, spun, fired, spun, and re-ignited them in pretty much the same point they were in when you started, your path would be more or less straight. But that seems like an awful lot to consider when you are also supposed to be evading left and right and up and down to avoid lasers and get those defensive DM's.

And this is why, in some areas, I not only do not dig, I don't even scratch. :mrgreen:

But... but... the fleas! They itch! They bite!! Must... scratch....!!!!

 

[Infojunky]

Agreed. But this is where you get the head scratching even though the rules don't point out a violation. Traveller says you accelerate in the directions your engines are pushing you. The weapons rules say that you can ALWAYS bring your weapons to bear against a target. And the head scratching begins when you try to figure out how you are able to accelerate, spin 180 degrees while not accelerating, fire your spinal mount, spin 180 degrees, then accelerate again and still maintain your total G rating while somebody is chasing you. It's all allowed by the rules...

This is why Traveller space combat doesn't hold up well if you dig just a teeny bit below the surface.

Note I said Spinal Mounts always Bear, the rest of the ship is constrained by the percentage Bearing number. I really don't see swinging your Bow or Stern to bear for a shot or a dozen then swinging back into you optimal thrusting direction to be all that big a deal in the terms of a 20 minute long turn.

With all that, I believe Power Projection makes a issue of Thrust direction vs Spinal Mount bearing, and it also is a High Guard Based Rules-set. Well, technically a Conversion of High Guard to the Full Thrust rules-set.

Also it wouldn't be too hard to include facing rules with the High Guard/Mayday Mashup that I mentioned earlier.

Side Note; Have any of y'all Played Homeworld? The Ion Frigate is essentially a Spinal Weapon ship. To fire said weapon the ship basicly comes to halt to fire, I could see that being a requirement in a Traveller Flavored game, especially with power rules as the majority of Maneuver Power is required for operating the Spinal Mount....

 

[Anonymous]

A space combat turn is 20 minutes. You should be able to spin around in a few seconds, so doing it to fire the spinal mount once every 20 minutes should not be a problem.

Anyway this is classic traveller, so spinal mount and agility aren't always important. You most likely will have only a minority of warships with spinal - unless you are roleplaying and using the designs from Supplement #9.

 

[Reynard]

Oh that's right, Classic uses 20 minutes. That's even better! 20 minutes to perform firing and movement! Geez, have a cup of tea, hey brew a cup of tea, in between moving and firing.

The travel formula is for long distance travel between system bodies, not knife fight combat at 'long' and 'short' ranges. Thrust a bit into position, spin to bearing weapons, reposition and fire engines for tactical advantage, rinse and repeat all in a relatively small area. All that in a mere 20 minutes. Let's see most naval ships do that on a regular basis without fighting with drones at a few hundred miles.

 

[Anonymous]

The travel formula is for long distance travel between system bodies, not knife fight combat at 'long' and 'short' ranges. Thrust a bit into position, spin to bearing weapons, reposition and fire engines for tactical advantage, rinse and repeat all in a relatively small area. All that in a mere 20 minutes. Let's see most naval ships do that on a regular basis without fighting with drones at a few hundred miles.

Well this TL 15, and we've advanced and evolved beyond the need for artificial systems to assist us. We are no longer dependent on antiquated automated systems nor the need to fight from beyond visual range like primitives. Our technology empowers us by letting us to all the work with our own bodies.

 

[Reynard]

Actually, TL 15 fleets are not the norm but a particular elite unless your Traveller universe happens to be TL 15 exclusive. No matter because 'artificial systems' are what make modern and future combat possible. The crew is at their station, consoles are automated for the majority of tasks so the operator can concentrate on analysis and command. It's the automated systems and computes that let operators fight beyond visual range seeing what the eye can't and predict locations in the heat of battle.