Charging Issues

[Grimolde]

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking here but I'll try to answer.

The way I'd play it is, for ease of play, the charger if charging over ground, does not get to continue his move. He stops and attacks. If he manages to kill the target outright, then he is free to move afterward 'if' he has CAa left.

Flyers can continue to move passed the target

 

[Grimolde]

Added Athletics roll option to double charge move rate

Charging Rules:

- Unless you succeed at an Athletics roll (see below) you cannot charge more than your move rate (8 metres for humans)

- A successful Athletics roll doubles your charge movement (rough terrain will modify this roll), if you fail, you move normally, a fumble and you fall down after 1d6 meters of movement.

- You must have at least 5 metres of move left

- You have to be 'disengaged' from melee combat

- The charge can be declared on any CA*

- You cannot charge and sprint in the same combat round.

Example - Bert the Barbarian with 3 CAs and a with a Move rate of 8, moves 2 metres on his 1st CA, he executes a normal attack, costing a 2nd CA, and kills his opponent outright (he doesn’t need to ‘defend’). He then spies another opponent up ahead, and after a successful Athletics roll, charges 10 metres and attacks on his third CA...

* Although you don’t have to do so, it’s always much safer to charge on your first CA, thus enabling you to act against your opponent with your remaining CAs.

 

[danskmacabre]

What I mean is the rules sort of infer is the charger charges in, slams into his opponent, gets his attack.
Lets assume he had 3 CAs when he charges, so he uses a CA to charge/attack.
He still has 2 CAs left.
He decides NOT to move through but stay and fight.
Since he has chosen to do this, his opponent is still in melee range, so shoudl be able to use one of his remaining CAs to do a normal attack this round.

Does that make sense?

 

[Pruneau]

We've been trying these out as well, they actually resemble our previous houserules quite a bit, with the athletics roll, minimum 5 m, so they felt right at home. Totally workable and players love the ability. From a realism point it's probably a bit overpowered, but then so is a magical troll 8)

 

[Grimolde]

What I mean is the rules sort of infer is the charger charges in, slams into his opponent, gets his attack.
Lets assume he had 3 CAs when he charges, so he uses a CA to charge/attack.
He still has 2 CAs left.
He decides NOT to move through but stay and fight.
Since he has chosen to do this, his opponent is still in melee range, so shoudl be able to use one of his remaining CAs to do a normal attack this round.

Does that make sense?

I think so.

The way I play it, is after a charge has impacted, the attacker/defender if they have any CAs left, can use them to perform any realistic action they wish.

 

[Grimolde]

We've been trying these out as well, they actually resemble our previous houserules quite a bit, with the athletics roll, minimum 5 m, so they felt right at home. Totally workable and players love the ability. From a realism point it's probably a bit overpowered, but then so is a magical troll 8)

Very true :lol:

 

[Deleriad]

In actual play I play pretty fast and loose so my rules are pretty similar. Basically provided you're far enough away to pick up speed then I usually call for an Athletics roll to get from A to B. On a success you act as charging, on a failure you've simply run into combat. If the distance you need to cover feels like it would take more than a single CA then you run for as many CAs as you need to get into charging distance then on the final one you resolve the charge.

I don't mess around with charges using up all remaining CAs for the attacker or defender or anything like that. It does make charging somewhat overpowered though it is potentially lethal to charge against a prepared enemy who has a longer weapon.

As I play without minis or battlegrids (on the whole) it works perfectly well. If I were to play combat as a skirmish mini-game on a grid I would systematically change the movement system.

 

[Grimolde]

If I were to play combat as a skirmish mini-game on a grid I would systematically change the movement system.

From the ground up, or just the charge rules?

 

[danskmacabre]

s it really that overpowered, all the charging really effectively does for you is raise your damage bonus one rank, it's not really THAT much of a big deal.

 

[Dan True]

s it really that overpowered, all the charging really effectively does for you is raise your damage bonus one rank, it's not really THAT much of a big deal.

And allow the other an attack against you... So it pretty much evens out. Which if he has a spear can get nasty.

- Dan

 

[Deleriad]

s it really that overpowered, all the charging really effectively does for you is raise your damage bonus one rank, it's not really THAT much of a big deal.

Don't forget that according to the rules, you cannot parry a charge. You can evade or counterattack but not parry.

Again, for an attack on the run I ignore that rule and allow a defender to parry (though their weapon is reduced by one size).

Against a mounted attack I allow a parry with a shield (or in exceptional cases known as spending a hero point with another weapon) but reduced by two sizes.

 

[danskmacabre]

Honestly all the Charges taking up all your and the opponents actions for a turn just confuses things too much for tactical combat using a battle mat (as is inferred in the rules and earlier on in this thread.)

I think I'll be happier to remove the whole the Attacker and receiver in a charge lose all actions in a round to how I described it in my previous post and adopting Grimolde's house ruling as well.
I just don't see charging as that awesome anyway and really it's the only thing that confuses tactical combat with MRQ2, everything else works fine so far as I've played it out in several test sessions.

It seems to me when doing a fly through attack, it makes sense that that attacker has moved through so doesn't get another attack that round, but I don't see why the attacker or Defender should lose other actions that round..

 

[Verderer]

I thought we all worked this one out one page ago? For my money, the rule about the possible reactions of the defender to charge (attack or evade) do NOT apply to anything else than the cavalry/fly-by charge. So for foot charge I just apply the increased damage mode, and let both the attacker and defender use their CA normally.

So I only now apply the possible reactions and the one CA action rules to cavalry/fly-by charges only, because only they are likely to involve the speed and kinetic mass required to just bash through the defences. That's the impression I got from Pete's answers a little earlier in this thread.

And I am now thinking about knockback rule in connection with charge. If the foot charge causes enough damage to cause a knockback to the defender, it would seem to simulate a similar 'move-through' effect as described in the last two bullet points of the charge rule? (That is, if I remember the rule for knockback right?) So unless this happens, the foot charger would remain in contact with the defender, and normal combat would ensue?

With mounted charge the situation would be excatly the opposite: unless the defender caused enough damage to cause a knockback to the charger, then the charger would be obliged to move through, and so on? Because it's hard to stop your charging horse in a few meters anyways, let alone a flying creature...

Of course, such knockback would be very difficult to achieve by the defender, with the notable exception of a pike. Sounds realistic?

 

[danskmacabre]

It may well have been resolved, but I guess I needed further clarification.

I agree with the mounted comments you made, I was referring to "on foot" combat only.
I'll be applying healthy amounts of common sense to rulings in game as well.

 

[PhilHibbs]

It may well have been resolved, but I guess I needed further clarification.

The "only allows one action" is for a drive-by charge, you each get one action or reaction after whic the charger is out of range again. For a charge into combat it doesn't apply to either character.

 

[DramaticExit]

Two questions

Example - Bert the Barbarian with 3 CAs and a with a Move rate of 8, moves 2 metres on his 1st CA, he executes a normal attack, costing a 2nd CA, and kills his opponent outright (he doesn’t need to ‘defend’). He then spies another opponent up ahead, and after a successful Athletics roll, charges 10 metres and attacks on his third CA...

1) Why does the first attack in this example use a 2nd CA? I understood RAW to be that you can combine movement freely with a CA (an attack in this case). So 1st CA is move 2m and attack.

It does make charging somewhat overpowered though it is potentially lethal to charge against a prepared enemy who has a longer weapon.

e: in-light of the conversation with Grimolde below, I've removed question 2, since it was only applicable when CAs were allowed as part of movement.

 

[Grimolde]

1) Why does the first attack in this example use a 2nd CA? I understood RAW to be that you can combine movement freely with a CA (an attack in this case). So 1st CA is move 2m and attack.

Page 84 states:

The following are activities a character can attempt by spending one Combat Action during their turn:

Attack: The Adventurer can attempt to strike with a hand-to-hand weapon or fire a missile at an opponent.

Move: If unengaged, the Adventurer may move his full movement rate.

Charge: If enough space, the Adventurer may charge into close combat, combining the movement with an attack. If successful, damage may be increased. See Charging on page 89.

It's the charge which allows a move and attack on a single CA.

Unless I'm mistaken

 

[DramaticExit]

Hm, I took that as a deliberate 'move but don't do anything else' Action, not one explicitly ruling out being able to do something else as well.

p.48 under Combat Rounds implied to me that movement isn't necessarily tied to specific CAs and is spread amongst the Combat Round.

and then in the Errata there was this:

Movement and Use of Ranged Weapons
Whilst making a Ranged Attack one can move at a walking pace and this does not cost any additional CA (subject to usual Movement limitations). Using a ranged weapon whilst sprinting is not possible.

Hence the confusion

e: The post from Deleriad here is a better way of summarising how I was thinking

 

[Grimolde]

Well it doesn't really matter how you run it, I think it's all to do with what you are comfortable with.

For me, I go with a move is 1 CA, and an attack would cost you another 1 CA. This keeps things clear in my head, and makes charging a little more useful and different.

I also see the ranged attack and moving up to half movement indicitive of ranged attacks. Them being easier to 'execute' for the most part, than whaling on someone in the frenzy of melee combat.

There was an unofficial/official ruling by Pete Nash I think, who said you could Move and act for one CA but not act and move on one CA. The way I do things makes this extra ruling a non issue.

Like it says, 'Your Runequest will vary'

 

[DramaticExit]

Cheers for that Grimolde I've removed question 2 since it was dependent on how we were handling movement.

We'll probably use a system like the 'grid based combat' described here - which I'm 90% sure is Deleriad - to handle movement and charging