Charging Issues
- Thread starter Grimolde
- Start date
Good ideagran_orco said:
Perhaps they are beavering away at the keyboard working out new charge rules
Problem is, most don't think there is a problem with the charge rules. And in some way, I agree with them. If you want abstract, hand wavey charge rules where the detail doesn't matter, the charge rules work fine.
Personally, I still think there should be clear rulings for charging on a gridded combat board. So far there aren't any, but the ones I made up seem to work ok.
Grimolde said:Good idea
Perhaps they are beavering away at the keyboard working out new charge rules
Problem is, most don't think there is a problem with the charge rules. And in some way, I agree with them. If you want abstract, hand wavey charge rules where the detail doesn't matter, the charge rules work fine.
Personally, I still think there should be clear rulings for charging on a gridded combat board. So far there aren't any, but the ones I made up seem to work ok.
Well the work better than the RAW
I must admit when we first tried the charge rules in game - it was WTF - that makes no sense......The RQ2 rules are IMO a strange mix of the very perscriptive and the very vague. As someone who is always happy to have the narrative over rule the rules I am not unhappy with making things up as I go along buit...
the RAW charge rules seem to have been written with a very very specific situtation in mind - two opponents - likely one on horseback and anything else needs to ignore them?
RAW charge rules risk a number of issues - fighting 2 against one - have one person declare a charge and the defenders CA all go away - the second opponent wanders over and chops them up.
Grimolde's version is as I read it at present, a far superior general rule - although I am unsure if the defender is under any restirctions?
Can he use his /her normal CA (I would say yes)
Can they counter charge (again yes)
Can they Parry (yes, makes sense really especially if you have large shield)
Mongoose Pete
Mongoose
Yep, the rules were designed for abstract play, not for miniatures play.Grimolde said:
Charging in particular was deliberately left even more vague. Yes they have a default assumption of 1 charger versus 1 defender since the majority of situations this is what will occur. Yes they are written from a simplistic perspective of a battlefield, e.g. infantry facing mounted foes. Yes they imply an open field with no other interaction en-route.
Why?
Because there are so many different situations where a charge can occur.
The rules needed to be flexible enough to represent a giant eagle swooping down from the sky to rake a waiting warrior. Or a shark swimming past a sinking sailor, biting his arm off. Or to ride past the target to prevent getting walloped in return. Or to charge through a waiting formation of men. Or to knock down a big monster. Or... well, you get the picture.
I could have made the Charge rules far more detailed. But that would have led to (quite literally) several pages of situation specific rules - I know because I did write a whole set several years ago. But after looking at the increasingly complex mess, I thought better and dumped the whole lot.
One thing you need to keep in mind about the charges rules as currently written (perhaps too concisely) is that:
1) it takes time to build up speed for a proper charge to be effective and a round is only five seconds long.
2) the CA limit was only intended to apply to melee exchanges, not be a metagaming method of purging an enemy's other actions. (However that's not to say in other situations it might be good to limit the entire approach and exchange to a single CA.)
3) the GM is expected to use common sense.
I'm a bit tied up on other projects at the moment, but please feel free to make up whatever works for you.
Exactly this. It's a strange mix indeed, on one hand it's detailed, and on the ohter, they are loose. It's a quirk I've grown to love (mostly).Da Boss said:Grimolde said:Good idea
Perhaps they are beavering away at the keyboard working out new charge rules
Problem is, most don't think there is a problem with the charge rules. And in some way, I agree with them. If you want abstract, hand wavey charge rules where the detail doesn't matter, the charge rules work fine.
Personally, I still think there should be clear rulings for charging on a gridded combat board. So far there aren't any, but the ones I made up seem to work ok.
The RQ2 rules are IMO a strange mix of the very perscriptive and the very vague. As someone who is always happy to have the narrative over rule the rules I am not unhappy with making things up as I go along buit...
Anything more than one on one in a charge, and my ears start bleeding.Da Boss said:
.Da Boss said:
Yup, pretty much. Though, if you think about it, the actual problems stem not from the charge rules themselves, but the CAs which don't seem to want to play nice with them.
None, other than if he can't see the charger charging, he needs to make a Perception test to do so. If he fails, he may be hit in the flank or rear, with the charger having more of a chance to hit, and thus more chance of a critical. But otherwise, no, the target has no restriction, because quite frankly, why would he? He can set to meet the charge, Evade, or even turn tail and leg it! In my book, unless the target can see the charger, the only chance a charger has of impacting, is if the target decided to meet the charge.Da Boss said:
YesDa Boss said:
Yes, for the sake of confusion, I'd have them meet roughly half way if possible, or as close to half way as possible.Da Boss said:
They can parry yes. In that respect, it's just like meeting a normal attack other than the charger gets that extra step up on his damage modifier.Da Boss said:
That's pretty much it
6 months ago I wouldn't have batted an eyelid at this, we'd never used minis for the last 25 years! But we've recently started using minis and mats.Mongoose Pete said:
Sure thing, even in wargames, charging can be a bit of a pain to get right on paper. What seems easy at first blush, ends up needing a few more pages of rules to make it work. It can be done though, and I'm sure it would have been if that was the design's intent.Mongoose Pete said:
Definitely, and I look forward to those rules being written up in, what, the next S&P......? Well you can't blame a guy for tryingMongoose Pete said:
I think the line between abstract and vague does tend to blur a little if I'm brutally honest in my opinion. But again, I can't help but look at it from a minis and mat perspective.Mongoose Pete said:
That's pretty much as I see it. I tend to think that CAs are the real problem, but they are less 'workable' than the charge rules themselves.Mongoose Pete said:
We'll get there! We'll tinker and get there coz that's the RuneQuest way!Mongoose Pete said:I'm a bit tied up on other projects at the moment, but please feel free to make up whatever works for you.
Now that we have Pete's ear (thanks for your response, by the way), can I ask you a couple things, please?
Firstly, you indicated in that old post I dug up that the last two bullets in the charge rule only apply to horse/fly-by charges, right? What about the bullet point about defender's possible reaction (ie. stand firm and attack, or evade), does that also apply to horse/fly-by charges only? You seemed to say so in your previous post?
Next, what about movement and specifically the Move CA? My current reading is that you can take this CA multiple times in a round, but your maximum total movement can't be more that your Sprint rate? So you could take one Sprint (and move your total allowed movement for that round in one go), or one or more Move CA of 8 meters in a round? If you chose to move by 8 meter CA's, you would most likely end up moving less than the full Sprint rate in a round, since normally you have about 2 to 4 CA per round for moving. This would seem fair?
About counter charging, my idea is to allow a counter charge, if the distance of the original charger to his target is more than he can cover in a single CA (using basic movement rate?), so the target has plenty of time (at least one CA) to develop speed of his own for the counter charge? What happens when they meet, do they both attack and can they both parry?
And finally when does a charge take place? If a character A declared a a foot charge at SR 21, being the quickest in that round, and the distance to the target is 15 meters for example, at what SR do I resolve the charge? On that first SR the charge is declared, or perhaps on the following SR for A? In other words, does the target have time to use his CA before the charge hits him? Yes?
Firstly, you indicated in that old post I dug up that the last two bullets in the charge rule only apply to horse/fly-by charges, right? What about the bullet point about defender's possible reaction (ie. stand firm and attack, or evade), does that also apply to horse/fly-by charges only? You seemed to say so in your previous post?
Next, what about movement and specifically the Move CA? My current reading is that you can take this CA multiple times in a round, but your maximum total movement can't be more that your Sprint rate? So you could take one Sprint (and move your total allowed movement for that round in one go), or one or more Move CA of 8 meters in a round? If you chose to move by 8 meter CA's, you would most likely end up moving less than the full Sprint rate in a round, since normally you have about 2 to 4 CA per round for moving. This would seem fair?
About counter charging, my idea is to allow a counter charge, if the distance of the original charger to his target is more than he can cover in a single CA (using basic movement rate?), so the target has plenty of time (at least one CA) to develop speed of his own for the counter charge? What happens when they meet, do they both attack and can they both parry?
And finally when does a charge take place? If a character A declared a a foot charge at SR 21, being the quickest in that round, and the distance to the target is 15 meters for example, at what SR do I resolve the charge? On that first SR the charge is declared, or perhaps on the following SR for A? In other words, does the target have time to use his CA before the charge hits him? Yes?
Contradicts
unless of course the original opponent has been killed or knocked unconscious, which he obviously isn't if you're forced to parry!
I'm buggered if I can remember how we played the charge rules, but as far as I can remember they weren't complex and didn't require much more thought than any other action and they seemed to work OK. I'll email my players and see if I can figure how we did it.
We're ex-D&D players and use mini's and a standard 1" battlemat, scaled at 1 sq = 1mtr.
I just re-read the rules, and it's fairly clear that the "only allows a single combat action" is because the charging creature is assumed to fly past and out of range before a second action is possible. If someone charges past you and misses, you don't lose all your actions "just because".
Mongoose Pete
Mongoose
I'll try to answerVerderer said:
The limitation is intended to limit melee interaction - hitting each other with hand weapons - and yes, this assumes the charger is travelling so fast they are immediately carried back out of reach.
I try to avoid tying movement distances to CAs specifically because it breaks the movement rate per unit of time rules for those characters with less CA due to low characteristics or those with magically augmented CAs. However, if the above method works for you and your players then keep going with it.
Counter charging is fine. However each participant still only receives one melee CA as they pass each other at high speed. There is no time to do both. Whether they attack or parry is up to the individuals involved, although the guy with the longer weapon will probably prefer to attack since they might be able to dismount or knockdown their opponent before the foe's weapon comes into play.
I usually play that the charge is resolved whenever it is most dramatically (or administratively) fitting. As a GM do I want to give the PCs or NPCs an edge?
For a battle-mat and using your previous suggestion, I suppose you could work out how far the charger has to move to make contact, what fraction of his entire sprint movement that is, and apply the same fraction to the number of CAs to see which one they'd have normally hit on.
I've tweaked my homebrew charge rules, I've completely done away with the x5 move rate.
Charging Rules:
- You cannot charge more than your move rate (8 metres for humans)
- You must have at least 5 metres of move left
- You have to be 'disengaged' from melee combat
- The charge can be declared on any CA*
- You cannot charge and sprint in the same combat round
Example - Bert the Barbarian with 3 CAs and a with a Move rate of 8, moves 2 metres on his 1st CA, he executes a normal attack, costing a 2nd CA, and kills his opponent outright (he doesn’t need to ‘defend’). He then spies another opponent up ahead, and charges 5 metres and attacks on his third CA...
* Although you don’t have to do so, it’s always much safer to charge on your first CA, thus enabling you to act against your opponent with your remaining CAs.
What do you think?
Charging Rules:
- You cannot charge more than your move rate (8 metres for humans)
- You must have at least 5 metres of move left
- You have to be 'disengaged' from melee combat
- The charge can be declared on any CA*
- You cannot charge and sprint in the same combat round
Example - Bert the Barbarian with 3 CAs and a with a Move rate of 8, moves 2 metres on his 1st CA, he executes a normal attack, costing a 2nd CA, and kills his opponent outright (he doesn’t need to ‘defend’). He then spies another opponent up ahead, and charges 5 metres and attacks on his third CA...
* Although you don’t have to do so, it’s always much safer to charge on your first CA, thus enabling you to act against your opponent with your remaining CAs.
What do you think?
danskmacabre
Mongoose
I quite like these rules, specifically being able to charge at any time on a round, regardless if you've already used a CA.
It never sat quite right with me that a charge takes up all your CAs effectively.
So how will this affect the receiver of the charge and what he can do with his CAs in the round?
It never sat quite right with me that a charge takes up all your CAs effectively.
So how will this affect the receiver of the charge and what he can do with his CAs in the round?
He acts as normal. If he doesn't see the charge coming, he may use up all his CAs before being charged. If he sees the charge coming, he can set, evade, or even decide to counter charge. The both meet roughly half way depending on Move rates, and both get the step up in damage.danskmacabre said:
For me it was the CAs that kept messing with me and my vision of charging, so I basically took them out of the equation
danskmacabre
Mongoose
So what if the receiver sees the charge coming, is fighting a guy in melee that round. Finishes him off say in his first CA, thus freeing himself up (just to simplify things), can he still use the various options to set for charge etc?
Or alternatively, receiver is fighting a guy this round, uses a CA parry that person then wants to say set to receive the charge as well from a separate charger?
Or alternatively, receiver is fighting a guy this round, uses a CA parry that person then wants to say set to receive the charge as well from a separate charger?
danskmacabre
Mongoose
I agree whith your first answer, the Receiver should be able to do what he wants that round, not just be stuck with receiving a charge and losing his CAs.
The second example is kinda the same as the first really, he's just in a lot more trouble
The second example is kinda the same as the first really, he's just in a lot more trouble
danskmacabre
Mongoose
Anyway I agree with your houserule and will give it a go and see how it works out.
danskmacabre
Mongoose
Another point I want to clear up.
I'm not really sure if it's inferred in the rules alrady, but it seems the charger can choose to stop or fly-by charge.
Meaning the charger charges in, the defender receives charge (for example), the charger gets his attack and runs past (Flyby), thus going out of melee range and the defender gets no free attack as it was a charge.
Alternatively, the charger could also charge in, get an attack and decide to STOP, not charge past.
Now the charging rules on Pag 90 say "Unless the charging creature stops the charger only gets one attack in the round".
So this means he could charge in, STOP and get the bonues extra damage to the first attack, but if he has CAs left can attack more in the same round...
Or at least that's how it reads to me.
I'm not really sure if it's inferred in the rules alrady, but it seems the charger can choose to stop or fly-by charge.
Meaning the charger charges in, the defender receives charge (for example), the charger gets his attack and runs past (Flyby), thus going out of melee range and the defender gets no free attack as it was a charge.
Alternatively, the charger could also charge in, get an attack and decide to STOP, not charge past.
Now the charging rules on Pag 90 say "Unless the charging creature stops the charger only gets one attack in the round".
So this means he could charge in, STOP and get the bonues extra damage to the first attack, but if he has CAs left can attack more in the same round...
Or at least that's how it reads to me.
