Capital Ship Battles

A

AnotherDilbert

Emperor Mongoose
Simple example BB. It's not supposed to be good, just demonstrate weapons and defences.

120 kT, Crew 3500, GCr 105.
J-3, M-9, Armour 15, 88000 Hull, 8800 Capital Hull.
Capital Defence 2[crew] + 3[Evade] + 2[TL] = 7
Weapons (Most weapons are balanced to 2800 dT for comparison, turrets half, PD double)
Particle Spinal 1DD, Capital Damage 10000
6 Particle (Accurate) Large Bay, Capital Damage 6*70 = 420
31 Medium Mass Driver (Size) Bay, Capital Damage 31*200 = 6200
62 Small Fusion (LongRange,Size) Bay, Capital Damage 62*100 = 6200
290 Tachyon (Size) Barbette, Capital Damage 290*20 = 5800
315 Quad Particle (Accurate) turrets, Capital Damage ≈ 315 * 4 * 7 = 8820
144 Triple Pulse Laser (Accurate) turrets, Salvo Defence 144*(2 + 2) = 576
300 PD Batteries, Type III (Size), Salvo Defence 300*12 + 576 = 4176
350 Meson Screen (Size)
425 Nuclear Dampers (Size), Screen Defence (350 + 425) * 2 = 1550
Code: 
TL 15        Hull 88 000                                105 040,1               Sensor DM    +6
Military 1               Desired  ∆TL  Rat    #    dTon    Cost    Power   HardP  Crew  
Hull                                             120000            24000    1200    
Config    Close Structure     4         4                  6600            
Hull strength    Standard     2         2                        
Armour    Bonded Superdense  15        15         14400    7920            
Rad Shielding                 1         1                  3000            
                                        
JumpD      Budget             3   -0    3     1    9005   10131    46800           257
ManœuvreD  Budget             9   -0    9     1   10800   16200   140400           309
PowerP     Standard                           1   10428   20856   208558           298

Fuel, Jump                    3         3     1   36000                
Fuel, Power                   4         4     1    1043                
Fuel Purification          48 h      48 h     1     900      45            
                                        
Command Bridge                1               1      80     900            
    Holographic               1               1             225
Comp          CORE/100       20       100     1             130            
Backup Comp   CORE/90        19        90     1             120            
    /fib                      1               1             125
Software All                                                184            
    
Sensors    Advanced           9         4     1       5       5        6        
Array    Distributed          9         3     1      10      11            
Extension Net    None                                    
Signal Processing  Enhanced   9         2     1       2       8        2        
Shallow Pen Suite             9               1      10       5        1        
Countermeasures    Military   9         2     1      15      28        2        
                                        
Staterooms                 100%      1930  1930    7720     965            
Common Areas                25%       25%     1    1930     193            
Escape Capsule                1            3860    1930      77            
Cargo                                              1703                

                                        
Spinal    Particle            1    3    1     1    2800    1300     1000      28   28

Large Bay                                        
Particle    High Technology   6    3  TL14    6    2700    1080     1200      30   24

Medium Bay                                        
Mass Driver High Technology  31    3  TL11   31    2790    3255      775      31   62

Small Bay                                        
Fusion      High Technology  62    3  TL15   62    2790     744     3100      62   62

Barbette                                        
Tachyon     Advanced        290    1  TL15  290    1305    1595     1740     290  290

Turret                                        
Particle    Very Advanced   315    2  TL13  315     315    6930    10710     315  315
Pulse Laser Very Advanced   144    2  TL11  144     144     684     1872     144  144
                                        
Point Defence Type III Adv  300    1        300    5400    6600     9000     300    
                                        
Screen Meson,Very Advanced  350    2        350    2800    8750    10500          350
       Damper,High Tech     425    3        425    2975    6375     4250          425
                                        
                            
                                        
                                        
Crew                3500    
    Command          319    
    Bridge            58    
        Pilot                3
        Astrogator           1
        Sensor & EW         54
    Engineer        1104    
        Engineer           864
        Maintenance        240
    Service          149    
        Admin              120
        Medic               26,45
        Steward              2
    Gunner          1870    
    Flight        
    Troops
 
And a torpedo version

120 kT, Crew 3500, GCr 101.
J-3, M-9, Armour 15, 88000 Hull, 8800 Capital Hull.
Capital Defence 2[crew] + 3[Evade] + 2[TL] = 7
Fleet Defence, Antirad
Weapons
56 Large Torpedo (Size) Bay, Capital Damage 56*30*110[Plasma] = 184800
860 Triple Pulse Laser (Accurate) turrets, Salvo Defence 860*(2 + 2) = 3440
60 PD Batteries, Type III (Size), Salvo Defence 60*12 + 3440 = 4160
350 Meson Screen (Size)
425 Nuclear Dampers (Size), Screen Defence (350 + 425) * 2 = 1550
Code: 
TL 15        Hull 88 000                                101 096,1      Sensor DM    +6
Military 1               Desired  ∆TL  Rat    #    dTon    Cost    Power   HardP  Crew  
Hull                                             120000            24000    1200    
Config    Close Structure     4         4                  6600            
Hull strength    Standard     2         2                        
Armour    Bonded Superdense  15        15         14400    7920            
Rad Shielding                 1         1                  3000            
                                        
JumpD      Budget             3   -0    3     1    9005   10131    46800          257
ManœuvreD  Budget             9   -0    9     1   10800   16200   140400          309
PowerP     Standard                           1    9677   19354   193541          276

Fuel, Jump                    3         3     1   36000                
Fuel, Power                   4         4     1     968                
Fuel Purification          48 h      48 h     1     900      45            
                                        
Command Bridge                1               1      80     900            
    Holographic               1               1             225
Comp          CORE/100       20       100     1             130            
Backup Comp   CORE/90        19        90     1             120            
    /fib                      1               1             125
Software All                                                184            
    
Sensors    Advanced           9         4     1       5       5        6        
Array    Distributed          9         3     1      10      11            
Extension Net    None                                    
Signal Processing  Enhanced   9         2     1       2       8        2        
Shallow Pen Suite             9               1      10       5        1        
Countermeasures    Military   9         2     1      15      28        2        
                                        
Staterooms                 100%      1500  1500    6000     750            
Common Areas                25%       25%     1    1500     150            
Escape Capsule                1            3860    1500      60            
Cargo                                              1813                
                                        
Large Bay                                        
Torpedo   High Technology    56    3 TL12    56   19600    2520     1400     280  224

Turret                                        
Pulse Laser  Standard       860    2 TL11   860     860    4085    11180     860  860
                                        
Torpedoes          1680      12           20160           12096            
Torpedo Defence    4160                                    
                                        
Point Defence Type III, Adv  60    1         60    1080    1320     1800      60    
                                        
Screen Meson,Very Advanced  350    2        350    2800    8750    10500        
       Damper,High Tech     425    3        425    2975    6375     4250        
                                        
                                        
                                        
Crew                    2720                                
    Command              248                                
    Bridge                53                                
        Pilot                    3                            
        Astrogator               1                            
        Sensor & EW             49                            
    Engineer            1083                                
        Engineer               842                            
        Maintenance            240                            
    Service              143                                
        Admin                  120                            
        Medic                   20,5825                            
        Steward                  1,9                            
    Gunner              1193
    Flight    
    Troops
 
Fight! Let's say 10 BB vs 10 torp BB.

ToHit (Long Range):
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 3[FireControl] + 2[TL] = +7.

Spinal: 2D +7[basic] +2[FireCont-AdvFireCont] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D + 0 ≈ 7 => 50%
Large bay: 2D +7[basic] +4[large bay] +1[accurate] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D + 3 ≈ 10 => 90%
Medium Bay: 2D +7[basic] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 2 ≈ 5 => 20%
Small Bay: 2D +7[basic] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 2 ≈ 5 => 20%
Barbette: 2D +7[basic] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 2 ≈ 5 => 20%
Turret: 2D +7[basic] +1[accurate] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 1 ≈ 6 => 35%

Damage:
Spinal: 10000/10 * 50% ≈ 500
Large Bay: 420/10 * 90% ≈ 38
Medium Bay: 6200/10 * 20% ≈ 124
Small Bay: 6200/10 * 20% ≈ 124, deduct targets Screen Defence (1550) = 0
Barbette: 5800/10 * 20% ≈ 116
Turret: 8820/10 * 35% ≈ 309
500 + 38 + 124 + 0 + 116 + 309 = 1087, deduct armour 15 * 3 = 45%, 1087 * 55% = 598 Damage.

10 BB fires everything at a single enemy making 598 * 10 = 5980 damage, killing ~6.8% of the enemy every round.


Torpedo BBs:
Each torpedo BB launches a salvo of 1680 torpedoes all against the same unlucky regular BB.
Hit: 1680 - 7[defence] - 4176/2[salvo def, torp] - 9 * 4176 / 2 / 2[allied salvo def, torp] ≈ -9800, no chance of hitting. Problem...
 
What have we learned?

Best weapon per tonnage is spinal (and quad particle turret).
Weapons that can be defended against with Screen Defence are pointless, because all screens are used against all attacks, not just one.
Missile attacks are chanceless, since Salvo Defence is used against all salvoes, not just one.
Best bay is Ortillery since it ignores range restrictions.
 
phavoc said:
Ortillery is (was) exclusive to bombarding planets. This has changed?
Click to expand...
It's intended for bombardment. It's crippled in space combat by having Short range. The Capital system ignores this currently. We can hope this will be fixed.
 
The range is probably an omit, which will be easily fixed.

The screen and PD are a bigger concern since from 1 use, they get to unlimited.
 
Simple Frigate:

2500 dT, Crew 82, GCr 3.
J-3, M-9, Armour 15, 1200 Hull, 120 Capital Hull.
Capital Defence 2[crew] + 3[Evade] + 2[TL] = 7
Fleet Defence, Antirad
Weapons
5 Medium Mass Driver (Range,Size) Bay, Capital Damage 5*200/10 = 100
10 Quad Particle (Accurate) turrets, Capital Damage ≈ 10 * 4 * 7 / 10 = 28
5 Triple Pulse Laser (Accurate) turrets, Salvo Defence 5*(2 + 2) = 20
5 PD Batteries, Type III (Size), Salvo Defence 5*12 + 20 = 80
5 Meson Screen (Size)
5 Nuclear Dampers (Size), Screen Defence (5 + 5) * 2 = 20
Code: 
TL 15         Hull 1 200                                  3 140,0      Sensor DM    +6
Military 1               Desired  ∆TL  Rat    #    dTon    Cost    Power   HardP  Crew  
Hull                                               2500              500      25    
Config    Close Structure     4         4                   200            
Hull strength    Reinforced   3         3                        
Armour    Bonded Superdense  15        15           300     240            
Rad Shielding                 1         1                    63            
                                        
JumpD      High Technology    3    3    3     1     193     433      975           6
ManœuvreD  Very Advanced      9    2    9     1     180     450     2925           5
PowerP     TL12, High Tech         3          1     201     302     4316           6

Fuel, Jump FuelEff * 3        3         3     1     638                
Fuel, Power                   4         4     1      20                
Fuel Purification          48 h      48 h     1      16       1            
                                        
Bridge                        1               1      60      13            
    Holographic               1               1               3            
Comp           CORE/70       14        70     1              80            
Backup Comp    CORE/60       13        60     1              75            
    /fib                      1               1              78            
                                        
Sensors    Advanced           9         4     1       5       5        6        
Array    Distributed          9         3     1      10      11            
Extension Net    None                                    
Signal Processing  Enhanced   9         2     1       2       8        2        
Shallow Pen Suite             9               1      10       5        1        
Countermeasures    Military   9         2     1      15      28        2        
                                        
Staterooms                 100%        45    45     180      23            
Cargo                        40                

Medium Bay                                        
Mass Driver High Technology   5    3 TL11     5     450     525      125       5  10

Turret                                        
Particle    Very Advanced    10    2 TL13    10      10     220      340      10  10
Pulse Laser Very Advanced     5    2 TL11     5       5      24       65       5   5
                                        
Point Defence Type III, Adv   5    1          5      90     110      150       5    
                                        
Screen Meson,Very Advanced    5    2          5      40     125      150           5
       Damper,High Tech       5    3          5      35      75       50           5
                                        
                                       
Software                                                     35            
Intellect/1           10      9         1    1                1            
Jump Control/6        30      9         6    1                1            
Evade/3               25      9         3    1                3            
Adv Fire Control/3    30      9         3    1               18            
Point Defence/2       15      9         2    1               12                                                   
                                        
                                        
                                        
Crew                 82    
    Command           8    
    Bridge            9    
        Pilot               3
        Astrogator          1
        Sensor & EW         5
    Engineer         22    
        Engineer           16
        Maintenance        5
    Service           4    
        Admin              2,5
        Medic              0,604166667
        Steward            0
    Gunner           39    
    Flight        
    Troops
 
AnotherDilbert said:
What have we learned?
Best weapon per tonnage is spinal (and quad particle turret).
Click to expand...
Great!

Weapons that can be defended against with Screen Defence are pointless, because all screens are used against all attacks, not just one.
Click to expand...
Not intended - something lost/changed in the last word change and format change to PDF I'm sure.
1. Screens Defence should be XX / XX (Nuclear / Meson)
2. Screens Defence is a pool that can be used, EACH TURN, to reduce damage received by the appropriate weapons. This pool is refreshed each turn.

Missile attacks are chanceless, since Salvo Defence is used against all salvoes, not just one.
Click to expand...
As above - not intended, something lost/changed and should be updated to reflect.
1. Salvo Defence is a pool that can be used, EACH TURN, to reduce the incoming salvo by a chosen amount. This pool is refreshed each turn.

Best bay is Ortillery since it ignores range restrictions.
Click to expand...
Definitely not intended - I accept the blame as in my back and forth with Matt I missed the edit that dropped range from the weapons. This absolutely needs to be in resulting in damage format becoming, for example, 100 / 100 / 25 / 25 (simulating Short / Medium / Long / Very Long Ranges). You're absolutely right in that without this, mass drivers are suddenly the best weapons and hitting you at very long range :)

Very thankful for the extra set of eyes as we went pretty quickly from initial drafts, to a couple of revisions to PDF format :)
 
Squadron of 10 frigates:

J-3, M-9, Armour 15
Hull 1200
Traits: Fleet Defence, Antirad
Capital Defence: -2[crew] - 3[Evade] - 2[TL] = -7 (See a problem yet?)
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 3[AdvFireControl] + 2[TL] = +7.
Damage:
Mass Driver Bays: 10 * 100 = 1000
Particle (Accurate) turrets: 10 * 28 = 280
Salvo Defence: 10 * 80 = 800
Screen Defence: 10 * 20 = 200


Fight against a single regular BB from above.

BB ToHit: 2D +7[basic] -7[basic def] * 10[# of frigates] = 2D - 63 always miss under all conditions.
Squadron of smaller ships win. Always.
 
AnotherDilbert said:
Capital Defence: -2[crew] - 3[Evade] - 2[TL] = -7 (See a problem yet?)
Click to expand...

You've made a booboo here.

BB ToHit: 2D +7[basic] -7[basic def] * 10[# of frigates] = 2D - 63 always miss under all conditions.
Squadron of smaller ships win. Always.
Click to expand...

OH WTF! Lol we made the booboo :)

AnotherDilbert, multiplication of Defence should NOT apply to Attack rolls. It only applies for Salvos to avoid the situation where 1 ship dodges 1000 missiles and the rest of the ships line up.

Attack rolls should figure Defence ONCE regardless of squadron or otherwise. Attacks are 1:1... Salvos are the ones that compare numbers vs numbers :)

Will escalate with Matt. Good catch Dilbert.
 
Nerhesi said:
1. Salvo Defence is a pool that can be used, EACH TURN, to reduce the incoming salvo by a chosen amount. This pool is refreshed each turn.
Click to expand...
Great, let's test this:

Fight! Let's say 10 BB vs 10 torp BB.

ToHit (Long Range):
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 3[FireControl] + 2[TL] = +7.

Spinal: 2D +7[basic] +2[FireCont-AdvFireCont] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D + 0 ≈ 7 => 50%
Large bay: 2D +7[basic] +4[large bay] +1[accurate] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D + 3 ≈ 10 => 90%
Medium Bay: 2D +7[basic] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 2 ≈ 5 => 20%
Small Bay: 2D +7[basic] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 2 ≈ 5 => 20%
Barbette: 2D +7[basic] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 2 ≈ 5 => 20%
Turret: 2D +7[basic] +1[accurate] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 1 ≈ 6 => 35%

Damage:
Spinal: 10000/10 * 50% ≈ 500
Large Bay: 420/10 * 90% ≈ 38
Medium Bay: 6200/10 * 20% ≈ 124
Small Bay: 6200/10 * 20% ≈ 124, deduct targets Screen Defence (1550) = 0
Barbette: 5800/10 * 20% ≈ 116
Turret: 8820/10 * 35% ≈ 309
500 + 38 + 124 + 0 + 116 + 309 = 1087, deduct armour 15 * 3 = 45%, 1087 * 55% = 598 Damage.

10 BB fires everything at a single enemy making 598 * 10 = 5980 damage, killing ~6.8% of the enemy every round.


Torpedo BBs:
Each torpedo BB launches a salvo of 1680 torpedoes all against the same unlucky regular BB.
Hit: 1680[torps/salvo]*10[salvoes] - 7[defence]*10[salvoes] - 4176/2[salvo def, torp] - 9 * 4176 / 2 / 2[allied salvo def, torp] ≈ 5246 torpedoes hit doing 5246 * 110[plasma] / 10 = 57706 damage, killing 65% of the enemy every round. Problem.

Let's assume that we can share all our Salvo Defence instead of half:
Each torpedo BB launches a salvo of 1680 torpedoes all against the same unlucky regular BB.
Hit: 1680[torps/salvo]*10[salvoes] - 7[defence]*10[salvoes] - 4176/2[salvo def, torp] - 9 * 4176 / 2[allied salvo def, torp] ≈ -4000 torpedoes hit doing absolutely nothing. Problem.
 
AnotherDilbert said:
Squadron of 10 frigates:

J-3, M-9, Armour 15
Hull 1200
Traits: Fleet Defence, Antirad
Capital Defence: -2[crew] - 3[Evade] - 2[TL] = -7 (See a problem yet?)
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 3[AdvFireControl] + 2[TL] = +7.
Damage:
Mass Driver Bays: 10 * 100 = 1000
Particle (Accurate) turrets: 10 * 28 = 280
Salvo Defence: 10 * 80 = 800
Screen Defence: 10 * 20 = 200
Click to expand...
Note that it is not stated in the rules that defences should be added for a squadron, I just assumed...

It should be stated clearly that Defences are added in the squadron.
 
Nerhesi said:
Whats the problem and does it differ from how it would be if we were using the basic rules for PD?
Click to expand...
It's the same in the basic rules, so not a new problem.

I find it a bit problematic that even with reasonable defences missiles can kill you instantly, but with good defences you are immune. Multi-Warhead Missiles are a severe problem for adventure class ships. Just my prejudice, perhaps.
 
About the defence of the squadron - it is clearly stated in the Salvoes section. At least I didn't had any misunderstanding there.
----

edit: did you calculate the armor on the torpedo example? With it it is 0.55 * 57706, which is not a 2 shot kill, but a 3 shot kill :D
 
Well, clearly stated is a bit optimistic.
p88 said:
Note that squadrons multiply their Defence score by the number of ships in the squadron against salvoes only (and they do not multiply their Salvo Defence scores).
Click to expand...
This probably assumes that Salvo Defence is already added together, but it is not stated anywhere.

Also it is stated under Attack Rolls that Defence is multiplied, not under Salvoes. Probably an editing mistake.

We beta-testers are here to find and point out such mistakes?
 
Dilbert: Salvo defence is calculated by individual PD batteries and laser turrets. Thus, since it is said that for fleet combat squadrons COMBINE their weapons as a single ship, we can expect the PD pool is total.

Under the Salvoes section in the same chapter it is said:

"Note that squadrons multiply their Defence score by the number of ships in the squadron against salvoes only (and they do not multiply their Salvo Defence scores)."
 
Yes - Defence is multiplied for squadrons to simulate that if you're firing 1000 missiles at 100 fighters, all the 100 are evading, not just one.

But Salvo defence, whether it is for squadron or single ships, is simply adding up the # of hardpoints dedicated to PD across all ship(s). So it's fine :)
 
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