Capital Ship Battles

[AnotherDilbert]

Large Bays should probably do more damage.

In the basic system +1 on each damage die is actually quite a lot, especially after armour:

              Medium bay        Large bay        Increase
Fusion       2DD - 13 ≈ 57     2DD+2 -13≈59      +3,5%
Fusion alt   2DD - 13 ≈ 57     (2D+2)*10-13≈77   +35%
Particle     8D - 13 ≈ 15      8D+8 - 13≈23      +53%
Tachyon      6D ≈ 21           6D+6  ≈  27       +29%

Large bays add +1 per damage dice to the final damage total ...

I assume this means +1 ON each die, even if that is directly contradicted by the rule, otherwise Destructive weapons will be shortchanged as demonstrated above.


Suggestion: Large bays should do 30 - 40% more damage than medium bays.

 

[Chas]

How are sandcasters looking?

I'm MIA at the moment, a bit too much going on to get into this properly...

 

[Nerhesi]

Large Bays should probably do more damage.

Suggestion: Large bays should do 30 - 40% more damage than medium bays.

Did you take into account the +4 to hit for large bays that are still in?

 

[arcador]

About the +1 Die, I suggest it is implemented directly into the Large bay damage table. I can't think of an example where the bay damage dices are changing.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Did you take into account the +4 to hit for large bays that are still in?

No, to hit not considered. Just pure damage.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Did you take into account the +4 to hit for large bays that are still in?

Since you force me to think:

The added hit chance should not be considered since it is handled by the "Fleet Damage" % table.
The added Gunnery Effect to damage should be considered.

At Long Range we generically hit with 2D - 2 ( Bay: 2D +7[basic] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 2 ).
Average Effect from 2D - 2 is 0,67 (when we hit, disregarding misses).

Large Bay 2D + 2 ( 2D +7[basic] +4[large bay] -7[targets basic defence] - 2[range] ).
Average Effect from 2D + 2 is 2,15.

Added Effect is average 2,15 - 0,67 = 1,48.

Revised damage increase table:

              Medium bay        Large bay               Increase
Fusion       2DD - 13 ≈ 57     2DD+2 -13≈59              +3,5%
Fusion alt   2DD - 13 ≈ 57     (2D+2)*10-13≈77           +35%
Particle     8D - 13 ≈ 15      8D+8 - 13 +1,5 ≈ 24,5     +63%
Tachyon      6D ≈ 21           6D+6      +1,5 ≈ 28,5     +36%
Railgun      [calc] ≈ 1,21     [calc] 1,21 + 2 ≈ 3,21   +165%

Railgun at Medium range added for comical effect...

Revised suggestion: Add 40 - 50% to Large Bay compared to Medium Bay in the "Fleet Weapon Damage" table.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Capital vs Fighter Squadron

Take the regular BB above and a squadron of barbette fighters from the "Fighter Squadron" thread. http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=900035#p900035


120 kT, Crew 3500, GCr 105.
J-3, M-9, Armour 15, 88000 Hull, 8800 Capital Hull.
Capital Defence 2[crew] + 3[Evade] + 2[TL] = 7
Weapons (Most weapons are balanced to 2800 dT for comparison, turrets half, PD double)
Particle Spinal 1DD, Capital Damage 1000
6 Particle (Accurate) Large Bay, Capital Damage 6*70/10 = 42
31 Medium Mass Driver (Size) Bay, Capital Damage 31*200/10 = 620
62 Small Fusion (LongRange,Size) Bay, Capital Damage 62*100/10 = 620
290 Tachyon (Size) Barbette, Capital Damage 290*20/10 = 580
315 Quad Particle (Accurate) turrets, Capital Damage ≈ 315 * 4 * 7/10 = 882
144 Triple Pulse Laser (Accurate) turrets, Salvo Defence 144*(2 + 2) = 576
300 PD Batteries, Type III (Size), Salvo Defence 300*12 + 576 = 4176
350 Meson Screen (Size), Meson Screen Defence 350 * 5 * 2 = 3500
425 Nuclear Dampers (Size), Damper Screen Defence 425 * 5 * 2 = 4250


A fighter (with carrier) costs about MCr 50, so we get 2100 fighters for a single BB.
Squadron of 2100 fighters:
M-9, R-16, Armour 15
Hull 2100*14/10 = 2940
Traits: Antirad
Capital Defence: -2[crew] - 2[Evade] - 2[TL] = -6
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 2[TL] = +4.
Damage:
Fusion Barbette: 2100 * 25/10 = 5250
Salvo Defence: 0
Screen Defence: 0

The fighters gain no advantages comparable to dogfight. Since the weapon damage is divided by 10 but screens are not, the fighters have no chance to penetrate the Dampers on the BB. The fighters lose on walk-over. In the basic system the fighters would slaughter the BB. Hmmm.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So we make a fighter with a missile barbette. With a light load of missiles, say 3 rounds, it is not much more expensive than the fusion fighter.

Squadron of 2000 missile fighters:
M-9, R-16, Armour 15
Hull 2000*14/10 = 2800
Traits: Antirad
Capital Defence: -2[crew] - 2[Evade] - 2[TL] = -6
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 2[TL] = +4.
Damage:
Ortillery Missiles: 2000 * 5 * 65/10 = 65000
(at close range we hit the same round anyway.)
Salvo Defence: 0
Screen Defence: 0


The fighters streak in to Close range and launches 2000 * 5 = 10000 missiles, that hit the same round.
10000 - 7[basic def] -6[ortillery] -4176[salvo def] = 5811 missiles hit each doing 65/10 damage for 37771 damage minus armour is 20774, minus 4250 for Damper Screen Defence leaves us 16524 damage killing the BB twice over in a single round.


The poor BB has time to shoot back while the fighters close in.

ToHit (Long Range):
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 3[FireControl] + 2[TL] = +7.

Spinal: 2D +7[basic] +2[FireCont-AdvFireCont] -6[targets basic defence] - 2[small] - 2[range] = 2D - 1 ≈ 6 => 35%
Large bay: 2D +7[basic] +1[accurate] -6[targets basic defence] - 2[small] - 2[range] = 2D - 2 ≈ 5 => 20%
Medium Bay: 2D +7[basic] -6[targets basic defence] - 2[small] - 2[range] = 2D - 3 ≈ 4 => 10%
Small Bay: 2D +7[basic] -6[targets basic defence] - 2[small] - 2[range] = 2D - 3 ≈ 4 => 10%
Barbette: 2D +7[basic] -6[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 1 ≈ 6 => 35%
Turret: 2D +7[basic] +1[accurate] -6[targets basic defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 0 ≈ 7 => 50%

Damage:
Spinal: 10000/10 * 35% ≈ 350
Large Bay: 420/10 * 20% ≈ 8
Medium Bay: 6200/10 * 20% ≈ 124
Small Bay: 6200/10 * 20% ≈ 124
Barbette: 5800/10 * 35% ≈ 208
Turret: 8820/10 * 50% ≈ 441
350 + 8 + 124 + 124 + 208 + 441 = 1255, deduct armour 15 * 3 = 45%, 1255 * 55% = 690 Damage killing ~25% of the fighters.

The missile fighters slaughter the BB. They would never have been able to hit the BB in the basic system, because they would have launched salvoes of 5 missiles each. Hmmm.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And now missile fighter sqn vs fusion fighter sqn.

2000 fighters launch 10000 missiles.
10000 - 6[basic def]*2000[# of def fighters] -6[ortillery] -0[salvo def] = -2006 missiles hit.

Oops, fighter squadrons are basically immune to missiles. That was the greatest threat to fighters in the basic system. Hmmm.


2100 fusion fighters fire fusion barbettes:
Barbette: 2D +4[basic] -6[targets basic defence] = 2D - 2 ≈ 5 => 20%
2100*25/10 * 20% = 1050, minus armour is 577 damage killing 21% of the missile squadron each round. OK.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So fusion fighters was not a good idea, let's try Tachyon barbette instead. Now it is even cheaper than fusion.


Squadron of 2200 fighters:
M-9, R-16, Armour 15
Hull 2200*14/10 = 3080
Traits: Antirad
Capital Defence: -2[crew] - 2[Evade] - 2[TL] = -6
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 2[TL] = +4.
Damage:
Tachyon Barbette: 2200 * 20/10 = 4400
Salvo Defence: 0
Screen Defence: 0


Fire at a BB:
Barbette: 2D +4[basic] -7[targets basic defence] = 2D - 3 ≈ 4 => 10%
Barbette: 4400 * 10% ≈ 440, minus armour (? eh) is 242 damage killing ~2,75% of the BB every round. BB win.

Without the bonus from dogfight the cheap fighters without computers cannot hit...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So include a m/30 computer so I can run Fire Control/3 and Evade/2 at the same time. I'm bending the rules and using Fire Control instead of Adv Fire Control, since I only have one weapon. It's a direct violation of the Fleet System, but perhaps reasonable.

Adding a MCr 20 computer makes the fighter much more expensive so I only get 74% as many.

Squadron of 1550 fighters:
M-9, R-16, Armour 15
Hull 1550*14/10 = 2170
Traits: Antirad
Capital Defence: -2[crew] - 2[Evade] - 2[TL] = -6
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 3[Fire Cont] + 2[TL] = +7.
Damage:
Tachyon Barbette: 1550 * 20/10 = 3100
Salvo Defence: 0
Screen Defence: 0


Fire at a BB:
Barbette: 2D +7[basic] -7[targets basic defence] = 2D + 0 ≈ 7 => 50%
Barbette: 3100 * 50% ≈ 1550, minus armour (? eh) is 852 damage killing ~9,7% of the BB every round.

The BB does (from example above, missile fighters)
8 + 124 + 124 + 208 + 441 = 905, deduct armour 15 * 3 = 45%, 905 * 55% = 498 Damage killing ~23% of the fighters. BB win.

 

[Nerhesi]

Did you take into account the +4 to hit for large bays that are still in?

No, to hit not considered. Just pure damage.

+4 to hit is a pure damage increase in Fleet Combat System

 

[Nerhesi]

I'm confused - are you using the Fleet Combat system?

Are you doing basic rules with squadrons?

Are you doing the Hybrid system?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

+4 to hit is a pure damage increase in Fleet Combat System

Better to hit is always increasing average damage. I'm trying to look at base damage, the value in the "Fleet Weapon Damage" table.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm confused - are you using the Fleet Combat system?

Are you doing basic rules with squadrons?

Are you doing the Hybrid system?

I'm trying to use the system in the "Capital Ships Battles" chapter. Including with fighters.

I haven't looked at hybrid yet.

 

[Nerhesi]

So include a m/30 computer so I can run Fire Control/3 and Evade/2 at the same time. I'm bending the rules and using Fire Control instead of Adv Fire Control, since I only have one weapon. It's a direct violation of the Fleet System, but perhaps reasonable.

Actually this is incorrect.

The capital fleet section doesn't make the distinction about what software you can run and can't run - it just applies the ratings.

For squadrons, you do apply Fire Control software if it is present (not just advanced).

 

[Nerhesi]

So fusion fighters was not a good idea, let's try Tachyon barbette instead. Now it is even cheaper than fusion.


Squadron of 2200 fighters:
M-9, R-16, Armour 15
Hull 2200*14/10 = 3080
Traits: Antirad
Capital Defence: -2[crew] - 2[Evade] - 2[TL] = -6
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 2[TL] = +4.
Damage:
Tachyon Barbette: 2200 * 20/10 = 4400
Salvo Defence: 0
Screen Defence: 0


Fire at a BB:
Barbette: 2D +4[basic] -7[targets basic defence] = 2D - 3 ≈ 4 => 10%
Barbette: 4400 * 10% ≈ 440, minus armour (? eh) is 242 damage killing ~2,75% of the BB every round. BB win.

Without the bonus from dogfight the cheap fighters without computers cannot hit...

This example is also incorrect (based partially on the previous incorrect assumptions):

Assuming the exact same software, TL and Crew, the modifiers are a wash. Resulting in a +0.
So 4400 barbette damage is simply the 2D roll result, - 45% for the armour.

I do think a bonus/penalty for "small craft squadrons" in adjacent range is required.. +2/-2

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Actually this is incorrect.

The capital fleet section doesn't make the distinction about what software you can run and can't run - it just applies the ratings.

I realise the rules allow this, but not even I am willing to go there...

For squadrons, you do apply Fire Control software if it is present (not just advanced).

• Start with the Crew Skill score of the ship.
...
• If Advanced Fire Control software is present, add its rating.
...
• If the weapon system is a spinal mount and Fire Control software is present, add its rating instead of that for any Advanced Fire Control software.

OK, only spinals can use regular Fire Control.

Weapon Attack: Determine this as for a single ship. If Fire Control software is present, add the rating of the lowest in the squadron.

I thought this meant that if any FC software, Advanced or not, is used, use the lowest in the squadron. Not that that squadrons can use regular FC as if it were Advanced FC. It does not make sense that e.g. a squadron of frigates can use regular Fire Control for all of it's attacks.

It would make sense if any craft with only one weapon of a particular kind could use FC, e.g. a fighter or a frigate with a single bay, not just for a spinal.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So fusion fighters was not a good idea, let's try Tachyon barbette instead. Now it is even cheaper than fusion.

...

Fire at a BB:
Barbette: 2D +4[basic] -7[targets basic defence] = 2D - 3 ≈ 4 => 10%
Barbette: 4400 * 10% ≈ 440, minus armour (? eh) is 242 damage killing ~2,75% of the BB every round. BB win.

Without the bonus from dogfight the cheap fighters without computers cannot hit...

This example is also incorrect (based partially on the previous incorrect assumptions):

Assuming the exact same software, TL and Crew, the modifiers are a wash. Resulting in a +0.
So 4400 barbette damage is simply the 2D roll result, - 45% for the armour.

I used exactly the software I had bought for the fighters, that is Evade/2. See the first post in the "Fighter Squadron" thread. Fire Control software for MCr 6 - 10 is a rather big investment for a MCr 20 - 30 fighter. I used the fighters developed for the basic system. I tried more expensive fighters next post.

I do think a bonus/penalty for "small craft squadrons" in adjacent range is required.. 2/-2

I do not see any requirement for being adjacent:

DM-2 is applied if attacking a target (or squadron of targets) who are each less than 100 tons in size with any weapon other than turrets or barbettes.

A squadron comprising purely small craft gains DM+2 to all attack rolls made against ships of 100 tons or more.

I missed the last one, so it is missing from my calculations. Much better for the fighters...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Redo the example for expensive fighter above:

Squadron of 1550 fighters:
M-9, R-16, Armour 15
Hull 1550*14/10 = 2170
Traits: Antirad
Capital Defence: -2[crew] - 2[Evade] - 2[TL] = -6
Basic attack: +2[crew] + 3[Fire Cont] + 2[TL] = +7.
Damage:
Tachyon Barbette: 1550 * 20/10 = 3100
Salvo Defence: 0
Screen Defence: 0


Fire at a BB:
Barbette: 2D +7[basic] +2[small vs ship] -7[targets basic defence] = 2D + 2 ≈ 9 => 80%
Barbette: 3100 * 80% ≈ 2480, minus armour is 1364 damage killing ~15,5% of the BB every round.

The BB does (from example above, missile fighters)
8 + 124 + 124 + 208 + 441 = 905, deduct armour 15 * 3 = 45%, 905 * 55% = 498 Damage killing ~23% of the fighters. BB win.