Average Joe Ability Scores

DrSkull

Mongoose
In D&D average humans should have 10 or 11 in each ability score, elves a 13 Dex, 9 Con etc.

I don't think that level works for Conan. You need to have the bad guys have a decent Strength or Dexterity to have a hope of getting past armor on the PC's. Besides, there aren't any non-human races to make average humans with high strength etc look funny (For instance if all you guards in D&D had 15 strengths, they're as strong as orcs, which isn't the intention of the game).

After looking at the NPC's in the main book (Corsairs, Picts, Turanians), it loks to me like they're using a "standard array" something like:

15 13 12 10 9 8 arrange to suit, adjust for race


I guess that looks good to me, are other people using something like that for the average guys?
 
Isn't the D&D standard "elite" array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8? Anyway, that's what I'm using for mooks in my game. Commoners get the standard array: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. For important NPC's I'm generating ability scores as required for the NPC.
 
This kind of thinking pops up from time to time and I'm whole heartedly against changing an average in the system since so much relies on it actually being just that: average.

I can understand how you want elite guards to have a higher value in some areas... perhaps all of them? And I can understand how you even want to say that for Elite guards... the average in STR is actually 14. Maybe they have rigourus testing of your strength before you are allowed to join? But to change the average for Humans per se would be a misstake in my book.

The players are heroes, so their scores can easily be above the norm, the adversaries of these players are rough bad-asses so I guess it is ok, if they too were above the norm, to give the players a good fight for their prise. But the average of the human race should still be left intact... otherwise the heroes would fall back to being ordinary... and the system would just be shifted one step up the ladder to no effect. So to speak.

DrSkull said:
average humans with high strength

Hehehe the sound of that is just funny... In my book the average human would have average STR, otherwise he wouldn't be an average human. Can you see where I'm comming from?

/wolf
 
The 3 sample book NPCs use default array, ie 'elite array' 25-point-buy, which does seem rather good for typical 'mooks' - eg Picts with DEX 17 & such.
I posted the following quick-NPC system on the '101 NPCs' thread. It allows for average NPCs with a good stat or two.

It divides NPCs into 3 base categories:

'Average' - they have 1 +2 stat and 5 +0 stats. That would cost a minimum 16 points.

Competent - 2 +2 stats & 4 +0 stats. Cost is 20 points.

Elite - 3 +2 stats & 3 +0 stats.
Cost is 24 points.

- This works out for low-level NPCs, for 10th-17th level stats will be at least +3/+1, at 18th-20th becomes +4/+2.
_____________________

Unless you're someone who enjoys taking 30 minutes to stat the 3rd guard from the left, I recommend the following system, from a post by Henry on ENWorld. I find it particularly suitable for Conan RPG.

Henry's NPC Creation Rules

I have a system I use that works well for me, regardless of play level. It was written for classed creatures and NPC's, but works also for "unleveled" critters - at least for me.

DISCLAIMER:

This method will not work well for Major NPC’s, and Major Villains. If you want to give certain villains their utmost prowess, you may need to stat them fully. However, this will work for 80% of the “shock troops”, shop keepers, bellhops, stable boys, scullery maids, and senators and mayors your PC’s will ever meet.

1. Start with Name, Alignment, Class, Level, and details. Write these down. That’s it. No need to be specific if this is an NPC they won’t be fighting.
2. If you need a specific skill (this is a skill that is actually coming into play; NPC is bargaining with PC’s, NPC is repairing armor, etc), then figure if the NPC is just decent, or GOOD at that skill. If decent, assign 1 skill rank per level. If GOOD, assign skill ranks = level +3.
3. Don’t worry about attributes unless needed. If needed, figure which how many scores the NPC is GOOD at, and assign scores of +2 (ie 14-15)to those. Everything else, assume average.

'Typical' 16 point buy NPC : 1 GOOD, 5 average.
'Competent' 20 point buy NPC: 2 GOOD, 4 average
'Elite' 24 point buy NPC: 3 GOOD, 3 average

4. Don’t worry about FEATS until needed. Feats hide a multitude of sins.
5. If combat is needed, hit points are slightly above average (Level multiplied by half of hit die number; round up).

For Conan NPCs of levels 1-9

Hit Die CON bonus HP/level
d6 0 4
d6 +2 6
d8 0 5
d8 +2 7
d10 0 6
d10 +2 8

BAB is = level, 3/4ths level, or ½ level, based on class. Armor class is = armor.

6. If NPC is a monster, and you EXPECT to get into combat with them, write down AC, touch AC, speed, Melee and Ranged attack, damage, and hit points. That’s it. Figure out feats and skills JUST like you do for other NPC’s.

You will wind up with characters that are only 80% accurate. Will this matter? NO. But you will wind up with generic monsters and NPC’s that took you all of 30 seconds to stat, that are playable, and for whom your players won’t be able to tell the difference.

Quick NPC Form for Conan RPG

Name:
Allegiance:
Class: Level: BAB:
Details:
Decent skills (rank=level):
Good skills (lvl+3):
Good attributes (+2):
Major Feats:
Hit Points (levelx1/2hd+CON):
If NPC is for combat:
Parry: Dodge: DR:
speed:
Melee and Ranged attack:
damage:
Special Equipment:

Typical 'Good' (+2) stats:

Class / Good Stats
Barbarian STR CON DEX
Borderer DEX CON STR
Noble CHA WIS STR
Nomad STR CON DEX
Pirate DEX STR CON
Scholar INT WIS CHA
Soldier STR CON DEX
Thief DEX INT STR
 
I guess there is a question of definition:

In D&D it works this way:

Elite NPC's: the leaders of the opponents, the cohorts of the PC's, these all should have the same sort of stats as the PC's and operate equally to them. They have the standard array Mijoro mentioned.

Average NPC's: the bulk of the population. In D&D these are the ones with the NPC classes (Warrior, Expert, and Commoner) that you can get with leadership feat as followers. In D&D these should have ability scores in the 10-11 range.

In Conan perhaps it works this way:

Elite NPC's: same as D&D elites, rough equals to the PC's.

Average Classed Guys: these are the warriors, bandits, pirates and nomads (etc.) the players fight in groups. THese are like the three human types in the Bestiary in the book. These are the ones I'm interested in. They seem to have 15, 13, 12, 10, 9, 8 or something like that.

Commoners: I assume the bulk of farmers, trademen etc., have all 10's, 11's Since most people are level 1 commoners, they maintain "human" average.


I'm interested in the average soldiers, bandits etc. Should they be the same as PC's in ability, or human average, or somewhere between, as the Bestiary seems to indicate. Do they get max hit points at first level (like the NPC's in the downloaded sheets) or do they get average for the die (like the guys in the bestiary)

This might be really important when PC's take leadership feat. A first level Soldier follower with a 15 strength and 10 hit points is a bit more useful than one with an 11 Strength and 5 hit points.

Conversely, first level PC's will have a better time fighting 5 hit point guys with 11 strength, than the tougher guy.
 
DrSkull said:
I'm interested in the average soldiers, bandits etc. Should they be the same as PC's in ability, or human average, or somewhere between, as the Bestiary seems to indicate. Do they get max hit points at first level (like the NPC's in the downloaded sheets) or do they get average for the die (like the guys in the bestiary)

Hit Die - doesn't matter too much, I find high-average at all levels works ok.

Stats - I decide if they're truly Average (16 PB - 1 stat +2), Competent (20 PB - 2 stats +2) or Elite (24 PB, 3 stats +2).

If the 'average soldier' is a Khaurani peasant levy or pictish tribesman, I'd use Average. If they're a professional soldier, experienced brigand or pictish warrior I'd use Competent. If they're the Royal Guard, veteran mercs or pictish tribal elite I'd use Elite.
 
DrSkull said:
This might be really important when PC's take leadership feat. A first level Soldier follower with a 15 strength and 10 hit points is a bit more useful than one with an 11 Strength and 5 hit points.

Conversely, first level PC's will have a better time fighting 5 hit point guys with 11 strength, than the tougher guy.

I'd decide who the first level soldiers are. If the PC is a Julius Caesar type & they're his elite guard, I'd use the 15 STR, Elite 10-hp guy.

If they're raggedy-ass peasants turned to banditry I'd use the STR 11, Average 5 hp guy.

In most cases though (say city guards) I'd use something in between - probably a Competent 20-PB guy with STR 14 CON 14 and 8 hp.
 
I agree with S'mon, that you just ought to eyeball these things. If they are common soldiers, they might have higher than "average" (meaning 11) Str and Con, or Dex as a result of lifestyle, training. If they are meant to be more elite types, then give them better stats. If they are some racial type which has stat bonuses and penalties, then accentuate those -- which is very fitting in a Howard setting. After all, he tended to exaggerrate all these racial types -- all Zamorans make excellent thieves, all Picts are very nimble, etc.

So, yeah, my typical Pictish raider has 12 Str and 16 Dex, my average Aquilonian soldier has 14 Str and 12 Con, etc. Important NPCs, rather than departing radically from type, tend to have better stats in non-combat essential stats. So, a 3rd level Aquilonian Soldier who is a sergeant might still have 14 str, but also 14 Con and 12 Wis or 12 Cha, etc.
 
A personal rule of mine is that if a NPC isn't important enough to deserve al least 3 levels of Expert and a 20 point buy then he isn't improtant enough to deserve a stat block at all. I have better things to with my game-prep time than stat out the 1HD Commoner stablehand. On a side note, I detest the Commoner class and oppose its very existance on a fundamental level. The pardagrim that 99% of the world is supposedly made up of first level Commoners does funny things to my perspective of a game world. IMC the only NPC class is Expert and many NPC's have PC levels (especially NPC's whose job is to fight, like guards). The average level of a competent adult NPC is 2-3.

I defenietly think that NPC's in Conan should have higher stats than "average". It makes the game world more believable (at least IMO) and it also fits with the genre where the focus remains on men of flesh rather than their equipment. YMMV
 
Argo - I tend to agree that most 'named' NPCs should have higher than average stats, since most named NPCs will be exceptional individuals - so I typically use 20-24 PB for them. Obviously the general mass of the population on average is still 'average' though. :)

I also agree that the Commoner class is too weak as presented. I remember discussing the lack of NPC classes in Slaine with Ian Sturrock, he suggested the possibility of an NPC 'Townsman' class about as good as the Expert.

In my Conan game I use a boosted Commoner class that subsumes the Expert. Hit die is d4, d6 or d8 depending on occupation, class skills & skill points/level are also increased depending on occupation, eg an 'Expert' type would have 6-8 skill points/level. I've kept the Conan RPG Commoner's BAB & Saves - the DMG Expert has a 3/4 BAB & a good Will save but I don't think those are generally necessary.

Boosting the Commoner class's hp & skill points makes it a viable class to represent merchants, non-pirate Sailors, and such, as well as Khaurani peasants.
 
For level distribution of a population in Conan I'm using pretty much my distribution for 'elite' populations in D&D, which is (for all adults in population):

50% 1st level
25% 2nd level
12.5% 3rd level
6.25% 4th level
3.125% 5th level

etc. This allows for enough 1st-levellers to give low-level PCs a chance to feel heroic, plenty of mid-levellers, and few high-levellers. I'll also include occasional 'ringer' high-level NPCs outside the bell curve, but not whole squads of them.

Groups of soldiers etc may have a minimum level above 1st if they're elite types.

Eg:

Typical unit - 1st level+ (eg Pictish hunters)
Veteran unit - 2nd level + (eg Belit's black pirates)
Elite unit - 4th level + (eg Zamorian Royal Guard)
 
I know for my other d20 games (D&D, and some homebrew WIld West and Sci-FI stuff) I had ended up making my default level for average NPC's to be 4th, just so higher level Pc's would have to think twice before fighting a patrol or some bandits. I thought I'd try to stick to things as written in Conan though, as I usually do with my first time through everything. A second level PC with good ability scores is usually more than a match for a 4th level NPC class warrior with a 12 and 5 11's.

I really like S'mon's system of aeverage/competent/elite for NPC's, and may end up using it.
 
DrSkull said:
A second level PC with good ability scores is usually more than a match for a 4th level NPC class warrior with a 12 and 5 11's.

I really like S'mon's system of aeverage/competent/elite for NPC's, and may end up using it.

Thanks :)

I think if you want to challenge the PCs, using default-array NPCs like those on Vincent's NPC sheets, with decent equipment & maybe max hp at 1st level, makes a dangerous challenge whatever the level.

Eg: a 2nd level Hyborian soldier with STR 14 CON 14, 18 hp, a Bardiche (with weapon focus) ATT +5 AP 8 dam 2d10+3, & armour giving DR 8 or 9, is quite plausible and will easily defeat a poorly equipped foe 2 levels higher.
 
Mijoro said:
Isn't the D&D standard "elite" array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8? Anyway, that's what I'm using for mooks in my game. Commoners get the standard array: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. For important NPC's I'm generating ability scores as required for the NPC.

Ditto,

Yokiboy
 
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