Artificial Intelligence

[Sigtrygg]

<political rant snip>

You missed out three, perhaps four other places AI could likely be developed:
India, EU, Japan, South Korea

 

[dragoner]

So, are you saying that there is no difference between intelligence and faking intelligence?

To what you would notice, probably. But this is full circle back into the consciousness argument, and that the two are not mutually connected.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The human mind and True A.I.s add creativity outside the box of programming.

Like curiosity, the will to survive, the desire to propagate and so on... I do not believe creativity is intelligence. Intelligent people can run the spectrum of how creative they are. Creative artists run the spectrum of how intelligent they are.

I believe many aspects and abilities of humans are well beyond AI. Go far enough and you are in the realm of an artificial life form.

A.I.s are thinking machines. Like people, they don't always do what mom and dad taught them.

And when a teen becomes rebellious what do you do?

At the very first instance of some AI doing something out of line, like breaking laws, I think people would "discipline" the computer. Try to teach it that it is wrong. If necessary "ground" it. Take away their cell phone and internet access until they "promise to behave". Maybe send it to "rehab". Perhaps remove or rewrite code and data the AI created. A rebellious enough AI, that repeatedly breaks laws would be sent to jail for life. Shut down.

 

[simonh]

Shawn raised some issues about money and ownership in a world run by AIs, or at least in which AIs perform most/all economic activity.

Companies still need "money" to run though, regardless of who is in charge. Materials need to be bought. Or are the AIs a war tribe that conquer planets and just take stuff? ?

A post scarcity society in principle could be a paradise where nobody needs to work and everyone benefits from the output of unlimited labour

And how is it all paid for?

I don’t see the problem, money would work in a similar way that it does now but the value chain would be very different. Different economic activities could be run by different AI subsystems that would trade with each other just as businesses trade with each other today. At least, that’s one possible model. The difference is that today there is a limit on the total amount of work that humanity can do each year, and a low limit on how fast that work capacity can grow. The growth rate is determined by population growth combined with productivity multipliers such as technological development and infrastructure improvement. An AI driven world changes the labour force growth rate from a steady few % per year to a drastically higher rate. In a single human generation instead of the labour force growing by maybe double at most, with AIs manufacturing ever improving worker robots it could increase a hundred fold in the same time span. Humans would not be able to contribute significant labour, and capital accumulation would no longer be a problem because the cost of capital equipment would be super-low. In a world in which the cost of labour is 1% of what it is now and the capital investment needed for a project is also 1%, the only real question is how would we choose to use the resources available to us. Resource utilisation and environmental impact become the constraining factors on economic activity, so that’s where the value would be.

Ok. Either AIs are controlled/regulated by humans, or they are not. Which is it?

I’m assuming they will be controlled and regulated by humans that set targets and define the parameters within which the AIs operate. I’m not aware I’d suggested otherwise. That’s not guaranteed of course, but I think the alternative is an essentially unknowable future that would be hard to speculate about meaningfully.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Rick]

I’m assuming they will be controlled and regulated by humans that set targets and define the parameters within which the AIs operate. I’m not aware I’d suggested otherwise. That’s not guaranteed of course, but I think the alternative is an essentially unknowable future that would be hard to speculate about meaningfully.

But that's the business of sci-fi; to speculate about a largely unknowable future!
I think at some point the realisation will come that computer development will only be constrained by the weak link in the chain - the human element; and we'll have to design computers for the sole purpose of developing a more advanced computer. Whether that will be a true AI or just a more advanced Simulated Intelligence, I'm not sure.

 

[Anonymous]

I think at some point the realisation will come that computer development will only be constrained by the weak link in the chain - the human element; and we'll have to design computers for the sole purpose of developing a more advanced computer.

And it shall be named "Deep Thought"

And the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything shall be..........

 

[Rick]

I think at some point the realisation will come that computer development will only be constrained by the weak link in the chain - the human element; and we'll have to design computers for the sole purpose of developing a more advanced computer.

And it shall be named "Deep Thought"

And the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything shall be..........

Ha, I knew someone would come up with that! :lol:

I do think its true, though - at the moment we're constrained by the limitations of our technology and by the human element. With the technology improving all the time, soon we'll need to use a computer to build/program a more advanced one.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree, I think the big question is, will these computers that are programming themselves, redesigning their hardware, firmware and software make a jump that brings them closer to a human thought process or make a quantum leap that takes them to a state that is alien to us?

And rightly so, you make the point it seems many are missing here: that's the point of sci-fi and sci-fi RPGs to speculate about this future. Who said anyone had to get it right?

The challenge for me is how do you "play" (I'd keep them as NPCs) a computer that's evolved? Personally I don't see them getting hung up in emotional sh!t as all humans do, that people confuse emotional responses with intelligence is just depressing.

 

[dragoner]

The challenge for me is how do you "play" (I'd keep them as NPCs) a computer that's evolved? Personally I don't see them getting hug up in emotional sh!t as all humans do, that people confuse emotional responses with intelligence is just depressing.

That is a challenge, to which I had another thought, they may not ponder things, such as have random thoughts, and will be able to not think on purpose. Which to use would be odd, as we are on all the time, where they might sleep at will.

 

[Anonymous]

No idol curiosity huh?

Idol, hahaha I meant idle.

Or did I?

I agree on the pondering, it's all about speed, assembly of relevant data and a decision based on whatever parameters it is working towards.

Very Banksian.

But Banks has them curious, exploring and doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff. Whimsical.

There are humans who can quell their inner voice. Tho I'm not one of them and haven't tried for decades. That a machine might, makes for an interesting parallel and references notions of nirvana which I associate with inner calm and a removal of emotional response.

Zen and the Art of Computer Programming.

Take the motorcycle out and add a spaceship...

kill your idols

 

[Anonymous]

Which to use would be odd, as we are on all the time, where they might sleep at will.

I believe there's a connection with sleep deprivation in humans and "insanity", would a computer capable of thought need to sleep? Would it need down time?

Which of course begs the other big question, will it dream (of electric sheep)?

Machine dreams. Now there's a weird thought.

Or am I making the mistake of humanising the machine?

 

[dragoner]

That is good, AI as the Zen Master, maybe it could output in koans? Just to show its ass.

Banks did have a certain whimsy, but I don't think it is that realistic.

 

[Anonymous]

Love him as I do, Banks and The Culture were firmly in the category of Science Fantasy, let's not pretend.

I think his whimsical, pedantic and somewhat quirky AIs were his poking fun, to me, Banks was saying "I don't think you should be taking this too seriously"

 

[dragoner]

Banks died too soon, he still had good books in him, I think. One of my all time favorites, not afraid to dream big with grand sweeping vistas. I do like his AI's, though they fall under the hyper-dimensional godlike intelligences variety. Not bad though, there is room for them in my TU, I haven't used them on ships though.

 

[Anonymous]

And the twist at the end of the Wasp Factory caught me completely unawares and was most excellent!

But I digress.

Bringing Banksian AI to Traveller presents a problem to me, basically they're too smart and can see the solution from afar. Now granted, Banks dealt with that by throwing humans (and their fallacies) into the mix to keep that spanner firmly in the works so there's potential there but if the AIs are prevalent I see far too much harmony to make for a good traveller game.

Now what I do like is expert systems that run things, the internet of things as we are seeing develop today. That way my space ship will always order fuel and life support the moment it drops out of jump and before the "crew" have to decide what to have for breakfast, the ship has gone thru all the protocols with SPATC and a berth is being prepped by robots controlled by another super fast super diligent and overal benevolent computer.

That way my players can get on with messing things up with other humans like they always do...

 

[dragoner]

Ship's are a "dumb" AI variety, just smart enough to keep themselves out of trouble, but not smart enough to keep the players out of trouble. The more Banksian ones (irony moment "Banks- Iain"?) govern systems and are bound there, haven't actually sussed why, just that it frightens other worlds, like good old Skynet.

 

[Anonymous]

But the system AIs are aware in interstellar travel aren't they? Could they govern a system and not be?

You aren't imbuing them with curiousity then?

 

[Anonymous]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2vrypvdqWI

Yes, way too early. Wonderful man.

 

[dragoner]

Yes, they have curiosity, but the wisdom as well to not cause a war with their neighbors, as their worlds are also inhabited worlds. Banksian in morality as well, somewhat, sometimes they give in to their people and fight. A perfect intelligence sees warfare as destructive and wasteful.

 

[Anonymous]

Hah! You mean that their morality isn't ignored when the need for resources comes knocking?

"Jesus says it's a terrible thing to kill anyone, now get off my oil field peasant, while I search for your WMDs"