Armor Issues & House-Rules

[Dirk Desiato]

I have run the numbers myself and I have no problem with Battledress as it is, except that I would use the CT price at 200,000 cr (350,000 for higher TL). 2 Mcr is too much. An auto rifle had a good chance of taking one down in CT also, only -3 to hit with the original rules. Also, I think the main thing about Battledress is added mobility and strength. Strike first, strike fast, strike hard. Yes, they can take a hit or two, but personal armor is for keeping you alive, not unscathed in a firefight. You want nigh-impregnable battlesuits, wait for the "Military Vehicles" book to come out and stat them up.

 

[AndrewW]

You want nigh-impregnable battlesuits, wait for the "Military Vehicles" book to come out and stat them up.

If you where going to make Battledress a vehicle that can be done now with Civilian Vehicles, the vehicle design system is the same in both books.

 

[justacaveman]

Nah, I don't want Battle Dress to be that powerful. I just don't want 1 shot kills with TL5 antitank rifles. I want them to be able to take at least 2-3 hits from primitive weaponry before being killed. The problem isn't just Battle Dress, it's all armour. By the time you add Burst damage, Effect, AP ammo, and the dice from the weapon itself, most armour is next to useless.

If character with just a +3 DM using an assault rifle fires a burst at a target wearing a Flak Jacket (prot 4) on average he'll do 16 points of damage with a hit (10 + 4 burst + 2 effect). The Flak Jacket will only stop 3 points of damage (1 if AP ammo is used), resulting in 13 points to the character. A 2nd hit will drop the target almost every time. And a lucky roll on the damage could result in a 1 shot kill.

As a GM I can say that killing the characters before they can respond to an attack tends to upset the players. When I'm a player, dropping the NPC with the first shot is just hilarious. All of this results in players who are unwilling to take chances because they the don't want to get their characters killed. They don't try to talk their way out of situations, they attack first without warning because he who shoots first wins almost every time. I don't mind firefights, but one-sided slaughters on either side aren't any good.

I want armour to be useful without PCs/NPCs becoming walking tanks. But I also want the characters to be intimidated by the few walking tanks that do show up, not thinking that they have a moneymaking opportunity by taking out the Battle Dress wearer and selling the armour.

Unfortunately I haven't come up with a perfect fix yet, I'm still testing ideas.

 

[Matrix Cypher]

The way I look at it is that like in real life, today, that armor does not keep you from getting hurt, but it lessens the injuries to hopefully less then lethal.

As far as a TL5 antitank rifle taking out some one in power armor, those TL5 ATRs are capable of damaging if not disabling todays APCs. The various anti-material rifles are effectivaly the same thing.

Power suits should be near invunerable to small arms, handguns, rifles, and LMGs. Heavier stuff should damage if not take them out.

Basically the Power armor is a one man APC. Some Rifles with AP ammo can and do make it thru APC level armor today. Normal Ball Ammo can make it thru the lighter stuff, especially at close ranges, say less then 100 yards.

 

[Infojunky]

Nah, I don't want Battle Dress to be that powerful. I just don't want 1 shot kills with TL5 antitank rifles.

Not sure i get you here, are you hung up on the TL5 or the Anti-tank?

I want armour to be useful without PCs/NPCs becoming walking tanks. But I also want the characters to be intimidated by the few walking tanks that do show up, not thinking that they have a moneymaking opportunity by taking out the Battle Dress wearer and selling the armour.

So here is the question what sort of game are you running? This might help frame your equipment choices.

As for hunting people for their armor, might I point out, once armor has failed it generally stays failed, without significant expenditure to bring it back up to snuff. Would you buy a suit that smelled like someone died in it?

 

[Klaus Kipling]

If you are going to add bonuzez to the autorifle, zuch az HuD and an ekzpert markzman (zkill 3) then you alzo have to add zuch bonuzez to the battle drezz.

(by the way, I'm uzing my wonky laptop, no EZZ or EKZ keyz)

TL13 BD zhould be getting active chamoflage az well az thoze zenzorz. That +6 DM for the zhooter iz quite high too, and to be honezt, a burzt at cloze range zhould be able to damage even zomeone in battle drezz.

The ARMP iz TL10, and it iz unweildy and needz a prepared pozition. The Barret iz more like the LAG.

Uzing rulez in the CZC the battle drezz trooper could have a 'light' zuit on underneath it - there are zome typez that can be worn under other armourz.

In the firzt game I ran I did up the armour a little (1 or 2 pointz), and it meant the combatz lazted about 3 timez az long az they needed to. A PC zurvived two full AR burztz at point blank range (yez, he waz lucky). Nekzt time I uzed them az iz, and play went much more zmoothly. Yez, theoze 1 or 2 pointz made a big difference.

 

[Jame Rowe]

Which is why I not only increase the armor damage but also the weapon damage. Mongoose did well, so mind that I'm just altering for taste.

 

[justacaveman]

A Barrett Light Fifty is not a LAG, it is a TL7 version of a TL5 Antitank rifle.

A current version of a LAG is available now. It is called the 20mm Neopup, can be shoulder-fired and will blow a hole the size of a basketball in the side of an oil barrel. Look it up on Youtube.

A basic suit of TL13 Battle Dress costs as much as an M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank.

A squad of Battle Dress equipped troops costs as much as a U.S. Army Tank Company.

A suit of battle dress can be taken down with an Autorifle (FN-FAL), an M60 Machinegun, an M2HB .50 cal Machingun (easily), a Barrett Light Fifty, a 40mm Grenade Launcher, a LAAW, a MAAW, and numerous other low-tech weapons. An M1 Tank won't be be seriously damaged by any of these weapons, an M2 Bradley or a Striker only has to be worried by a couple of them.

As long as it can be taken out with small arms, Battle Dress is an expensive joke. It's not worth the money, the training time, or the loss of the troops that were counting on it's protection.

There is no rule in that CSC that says you can wear light armour under Battle Dress. The rules on page 132 specifically say that you can't combine Vacc Suits, Combat Armour, or Battle Dress with other armour.

The example character I used was pretty typical of an ex-marine PC. The NPC bodyguard (ex-marine) on page 85 of the Core rulebook has STR 10, DEX 8, END 10, Gun Combat (Slug Rifle) 2, and has Combat Armour, and an ACR. I hadn't even considered that you would be attacking a Battle Dress equipped soldier with a Desk Clerk or some other type of REMF. If the Battle Dress equipped soldier has bonuses, ALL it means is whoever shoots first wins. The Battle Dress is just an expensive NBC suit.

I have used every weapon I listed above except the Barrett Light Fifty, plus quite a few I didn't list. I know reality, and I've played Traveller since about 1980. Combat Armour and Battle Dress never cost so much for so little benefit as in MGT. This is still the best version since CT (and is better in many ways), it just needs a little tweaking.

 

[Dave Chase]

justacaveman,
You left out the Dragon and the T.O.W.

Of course the same argument could be used for the M48 Sherdian tank in WW2.

Just like high tech toys and things of today, one has to start somewhere and then the normally get better over time.

You cell phone today use to be a purse size device just 10+ years ago.

Your steel pot of yesterday is replaced with a light and more protective Kevlar Helmet today.

Lead glass windows in the beginning would be broken just by the wind, now we have bullet proof glass.

I agree that as things currently stand in the game, Battledress might not be the best but given a few years (TL level's) it will be just fine.

Dave Chase

 

[justacaveman]

Yes I did leave out Dragons and TOWs. I thought that would be a bit too much overkill (and they're a bit hard to hit a man-sized target with).

If you're hunting Battle Dress for money, you don't think suit, you think parts. Things like stolen cars are usually cut up for spare parts in chop shops. The parts are sold to body shops and mechanics, and will bring close to the full retail value of the car. For Battle Dress, you strip all the usable parts off and sell them to Mercenary Companies and Local governments etc.. You should be able to score a good Cr 1,000,000 per suit (highly profitable) :twisted: .

 

[Dirk Desiato]

A basic suit of TL13 Battle Dress costs as much as an M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank.

A squad of Battle Dress equipped troops costs as much as a U.S. Army Tank Company.

As long as it can be taken out with small arms, Battle Dress is an expensive joke. It's not worth the money, the training time, or the loss of the troops that were counting on it's protection.

Combat Armour and Battle Dress never cost so much for so little benefit as in MGT. This is still the best version since CT (and is better in many ways), it just needs a little tweaking.

Like dividing the cost by 10. I seriously think that the cost is a misprint that was continued. 200,000 to 350,000 cr makes more sense.

 

[justacaveman]

I agree on the price. I think Combat Armour and Battle Dress prices have one too many zeros in them.

I'm thinking that the solution to weak armour may need to be addressed by modifying weapon damage.

An Assault Rifle can do as little as 3 points of damage or as much as 28 points depending on hit roll, burst fire etc..

If you give weapon damage a set value (average damage for instance) you will even out the damage. Then you can add Effect, and Burst bonuses to that number. So an Assault Rifle would now do 10-20 points of damage.

And if you add a Tech Difference penalty to anti-armour ammo, that would keep low tech weapons from overwhelming high tech armour.
Such as subtracting 1 die's worth of armor piercing bonus per TL that the armour exceeds the weapon. Example: A TL12 Gauss rifle normally bypasses 4 points of armour with standard ammo, and 8 points with DSAP. If you fired it at TL14 Battle Dress, it would lose 2 points of penetration with standard ammo, and 4 points with DSAP.

These changes would keep those people who complain about characters surviving 2 bursts from an Assault rifle at point blank range a little happier, while cutting down on the high top end damage. I'll need to playtest it to see how it works.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Like dividing the cost by 10. I seriously think that the cost is a misprint that was continued. 200,000 to 350,000 cr makes more sense.

And how would you adjust all the other armor prices? Battle dress certainly shouldn't be less expensive than Combat armor.

Don't forget, Battle dress provides characteristic boosts and hostile environment protection which combat armor does not.

 

[Infojunky]

Don't forget, Battle dress provides characteristic boosts and hostile environment protection which combat armor does not.

Er?!? The only difference between Battledress and Combat Armor is the Powered Exoskeleton and Computer.

Now this might be a edition thing too....

 

[justacaveman]

Infojunky is correct, Battle Dress is powered Combat Armour, and yes I would lower the price of that too.

I would buy the inflation argument except for the fact that the price of most other high tech equipment in traveller hasn't been subjected to such inflation. Most of the weapons and equipment in MGT are about same price as in CT. TL13 Battle Dress in CT cost Cr 200,000 and an FGMP-14 cost Cr 165,000 (weapon & power pack). In MGT TL13 Battle Dress costs Cr 2,000,000 and an FGMP-14 costs Cr 100,000 (ammo is only Cr 500).

CT Battle Dress doubled your STR, gave you unlimited END for carrying etc., and gave you a +2 Initiative bonus. MGT Battle Dress gives you +4 STR & DEX

Battle Dress increased in cost by x 10.

 

[BP]

First - those are huge differences - that is like saying the difference between a car and an airplane is just wings! Like the plane - BattleDress lets you go places and do things the car just can't do (and survive ) MGT Combat Armour is a vacc suit with armour - it provides no other basic benefits.

MGT BattleDress extends the power and capabilities of the user -

• +4(/+6) Str and +4 Dex = DM to skills and hand damage (for non-superheros)
  Expert Tactics (military) 2(/3) = Initiative advantage to entire group

Plus full flame, intense radiation and high pressure - allowing protection from incenderary weapons, nuclear weapons and operation in deep ocean environs. This is certainly an all purpose, specialty suit - the price reflects that just like the difference in price between standard scuba gear and a deep ocean suit.

Sure it is 10x the price of basic combat armour - but it also offers all the above benefits plus 30% more armour at about 1/3 the 'effective' mass. Combat armour of the same armour value (16) is Cr 600,000 - but lacks the above benefits.

And Core specifically states not generally available on the open market - implying these are gray/black market prices.

 

[justacaveman]

Combat Armour in CT was Cr 20,000 and is Cr 200,000 in MGT.

That's 10 x the original price, just like Battle Dress is now 10 x the original price.

Battle Dress has always been 10 x the price of Combat Armour. Now it is 100 x the original price of Combat Armour, while most everything else is right around it's original price. Heck, an Air/Raft is less than half it's original price, and most people think it's hideously expensive.

 

[justacaveman]

You apply modifiers to the price AFTER you determine whether it's blackmarket or whatever.

Why? Because what is blackmarket on one world can be ordinary business on another world and TL has nothing to do with it.

The Imperium does not control most of the Individual planets themselves. It controls commerce and trade between worlds because that's where the money is. It's why you have all those different government types out there in the Imperium.

 

[BP]

Combat Armour in CT was Cr 20,000 and is Cr 200,000 in MGT.

That's 10 x the original price, just like Battle Dress is now 10 x the original price.

Battle Dress has always been 10 x the price of Combat Armour. ...

Yep - the 10x is consistent in this regards - which is what leads me to believe it was intentional and not just an error.

A number of prices have changed - (and yes I questioned the Air/Raft price myself ) - at first I resisted these, and then realised there are probably good reasons dealing with game balance (CT has been around a long time). MGT is not CT - if it was I'd just keep my old books.

There is nothing to suggest that the Imperium spends this much per suit nor that the suits are ubiquitous for the Marines. Quite the contrary - it is stated as 'not generally available on the open market' and nothing says every marine gets a set of Battle Dress.

Your TU may have other needs - but nothing really makes Battle Dress prices broken in MGT - just different from CT...

 

[BP]

You apply modifiers to the price AFTER you determine whether it's blackmarket or whatever.

Why? Because what is blackmarket on one world can be ordinary business on another world and TL has nothing to do with it.

The Imperium does not control most of the Individual planets themselves. It controls commerce and trade between worlds because that's where the money is. It's why you have all those different government types out there in the Imperium.

Not following your logic here - again, Core specifically states not generally available on the open market - implying these are gray/black market prices.