Armor Issues & House-Rules

[justacaveman]

Not every Marine, just the assault troops, and in the the OTU there are a lot of them. 100s of thousands.

I've played this game since 1980 and Marines have Battle Dress. It's in plenty of the books from CT til now (It's Canon).

And you have a strange argument. You say it's not too weak or too expensive. But it's so expensive and rare because it's so powerful. If it's so powerful as to be game changing, why is it so easy to kill someone wearing it?

Just because they deliberately upped the price by 10 times doesn't mean it was a good idea. They didn't up the the price of Hi-energy weapons, and those are much more game changing than a suit of armour that you can hardly wear anywhere, and can be destroyed by a single shot by one of those Hi-energy weapons.

 

[BP]

Not every Marine, just the assault troops, and in the the OTU there are a lot of them. 100s of thousands.

I've played this game since 1980 and Marines have Battle Dress. It's in plenty of the books from CT til now (It's Canon).

Same here ('82)- and nothing in any way implied they didn't have Battle Dress... but, as you state, not every marine does. Even at Cr 200,000 one could still say the price was too high in CT given the numbers... but then that is relative (U.S. Marines operate tens of thousands of dollars per man cheaper than other branches - but then many marines are pilots and their training and planes are 100s of times more than the average).

... why is it so easy to kill someone wearing it?

It isn't... and I am pointing out why it might not be considered too expensive nor too weak. It is expensive because it is not weak. (And in CT the same also applies - it was still 'expensive' at 1/10 the cost).

Just because they deliberately upped the price by 10 times doesn't mean it was a good idea.

Might not be - but doesn't mean its neccessarily broken or in error either... just different. And if I had set the prices - most would be quite different. As a ref I have this option - but rarely exorcised it due to the fact that the rules could be used as a compromise (since players would invariably have their own opinion about costs )

You've pointed out issues - and I have conditionally agreed with them - however, there are also counter points that can resolve those issues. Despite changes to a game I love (and some things I think are errors) - Mongoose authors seem to have put a lot of thought into their changes - and most make sense (after more thinking than I sometimes want to do).

I enjoy debating the points - it helps clarify changes - and address things missed. Hopefully others benefit as well. If we debate we both win - if we argue we both lose.

 

[justacaveman]

Debating is just fine, arguing is just annoying. My only real concern with the price of Battle Dress and Combat Armour is that it's too expensive for the Imperium to deploy in the large numbers that are required to patrol Imperial Space.

I did a little searching to find out a couple of facts. I still need to do a little more research.

This piece of info does stand out though: The population of the Imperium has been said to be approx. 10 Trillion (That's about 10 times what I thought it was).

Battle Dress has to be relatively common in the Imperial Marines. How do I know this? EVERY Marine is trained in the use of Battle Dress. If it was rare and only used in limited numbers, few Marines would be skilled with it. In the Army it is apparently limited to special units, because almost no one in the Army is trained in it's use (and a lot of them are probably ex-marines).

As I've stated before, I think evening out the the possible damage from weapons and limiting anti-armour ammo with tech level penalties, should mostly compensate for the weakness of armour in MGT. Enough to live with I think.

As for those GM's that think that characters should be dropped by the first hit from an Assault Rifle, I believe you are looking at it the wrong way. You shouldn't think of it as a solid hit. You should think of it as a flesh wound that the character shrugged off. Most bullet wounds aren't immediately incapacitating anyway (despite what you may see in movies). Even fatal wounds can take minutes to kill. People have survived head wounds that left bullets lodged in their brains. It's OK if combat lasts more than 2 rounds (honest).

 

[BP]

... The population of the Imperium has been said to be approx. 10 Trillion (That's about 10 times what I thought it was)...

Sounds reasonable given the number of star systems... (not sure why this is here? Are you extrapolating number of marines or funds?)

...the price of Battle Dress and Combat Armour is that it's too expensive for the Imperium to deploy in the large numbers that are required to patrol Imperial Space. ...Battle Dress has to be relatively common in the Imperial Marines...

To be sure - only support personnel are likely not to have Battle Dress-1 or above... so at least 60% probably more like 85% (since officers get equal chance).

While 2 MCr seems to be an outrageous price (I thought so at first) - put in perspective (cost percentage for Imperium), it doesn't seem bad at all...

Looking at High Guard capital ships troop counts: Battleship carries ~13% Marines (500); Monitor ~15% (120); Cruiser ~21% (250) Note: Escorts and Carriers have 0 troops (seems strange).

Assuming every Troop is a Marine and every one is equiped with Battle Dress at MCr 2 each, that is 0.7% cost of Battleship; 1.4% of Monitor; 0.9% of Cruiser.

While these numbers don't account for all the Marines, with SBDs, Naval Bases, etc. nor the cost of weapons and support craft, etc. - Battle Dress would seem one of the most important pieces of gear - so these price percentages don't seem too high - given the fact that these are basically elite protection/assult forces used to protect the highest dollar/survival critical assets of the Imperium.

...In the Army it is apparently limited to special units, because almost no one in the Army is trained in it's use (and a lot of them are probably ex-marines).

Where is this covered in char gen (I don't recall Battle Dress skill for army - but I don't have all the books) - or are you referring to NPCs?

...As for those GM's that think that characters should be dropped by the first hit from an Assault Rifle, I believe you are looking at it the wrong way. You shouldn't think of it as a solid hit. You should think of it as a flesh wound that the character shrugged off. Most bullet wounds aren't immediately incapacitating anyway ...

Quite agree - and personnally I'd never kill off a PC this way (well, maybe if they were really asking for it) - except when I play 'expendable crewman' adventures (where each player has multiple PCs, typically less skilled).

Target area wise, the human body has a lot of non-critical areas - it is well suited to protecting the brain - and the bone structure/geometry is basically shock absorbing/deflection armour...

I knew a guy who had his Jaw and most of hist throat, including vocal cords blown out by a high calibre crew gun in Korea... and recently talked with an officer who shot an assailant 3 times point blank with his service revolver - and the guy was still coherent and fighting...

 

[Jame Rowe]

Don't forget, Battle dress provides characteristic boosts and hostile environment protection which combat armor does not.

Er?!? The only difference between Battledress and Combat Armor is the Powered Exoskeleton and Computer.

Now this might be a edition thing too....

And I'm thinking that Combat Armor at TL-12 should have that computer.

 

[apoc527]

Why not just say that the MCr2 cost IS the "black market" "player character" cost and say that the Imperium can produce the suits for 1/10 (or even 1/100) this value. Do the same for combat armor and you're done.

In GURPS Traveller, combat armor is 4300 credits and the best battledress is KCr18.5. So, clearly the price fluctuates. It fluctuates even between books. The core GT book lists the price as closer to KCr58, but the price I cited is from Ground Forces.

I agree that 2 million credits is a lot for a suit of armor that can be holed with an anti-tank rifle (think about that for a second--what's wrong with it taking an anti-tank rifle to kill someone in battledress, which is glorified plate mail?), but you are free to change it!

 

[Golan2072]

Why not just say that the MCr2 cost IS the "black market" "player character" cost and say that the Imperium can produce the suits for 1/10 (or even 1/100) this value. Do the same for combat armor and you're done.

That would actually fit the CT prices, where a BD would, IIRC, cost Cr200,000...

 

[justacaveman]

Reducing the price to 1/10th of the list price is a more complicated fix since CSC has introduced more armour with outrageously high prices.

So now I have to create a entire new price list or just accept prices as they are. It thoroughly annoys me when arbitrary major changes are made to a game without explanation. It seems as if the prices were changed just to make Combat Armour and Battle Dress more difficult for PCs to obtain. If the price change was because of the ability enhancements of Battle Dress, why was Combat Armour changed? The prices don't reflect an increase in personal protection. The only difference between TL14 Combat Armour and TL14 Advanced Boarding Vacc Suits appears to be Cr 540,000, 1 point of armour, and the fact that Combat Armour is unencumbering (The Combat Armour's weight doesn't count against you. Nice, but is it worth 540,000 credits for 1 point of armour, and to avoid carrying 6 kg? You can buy a Grav Belt for only Cr 100,000 and not carry any weight at all.) I'd be more accepting of the prices if personal armour protected you better against small arms fire, but the armour remains weak.

An FGMP-14 used to weigh 90 kg with it's power pack and required Battle Dress to use at all. Now it weighs 10 kg, costs Cr 64,500 less, only requires STR 12, and is capable of automatic fire. :? ???

 

[Infojunky]

Take a deep breath.....

Now repeat after me It's all a toolkit. Even though it is printed doesn't mean you have to use it.......

Every time someone touches Traveller something changes. It is the only constant.

 

[apoc527]

And for many of us, MGT is the only Traveller we know (I am not counting GURPS Traveller or T20, both of which are COMPLETELY different from CT).

 

[Infojunky]

And for many of us, MGT is the only Traveller we know (I am not counting GURPS Traveller or T20, both of which are COMPLETELY different from CT).

Sorry, I was really just pointing out that rules are suggestions.

 

[BP]

...prices don't reflect an increase in personal protection. The only difference between TL14 Combat Armour and TL14 Advanced Boarding Vacc Suits appears to be Cr 540,000...

If TL 14 Advanced Boarding Vacc Suits are Cr 60,000 in CSC then that would seem odd since non-advanced TL 14 is Cr 80,000 Cr in Mercenary ... of course, in Mercenary - one can find Artillery Battle Dress TL 13 for the same MCr 2 as standard Battle Dress (TL 13) - though it boosts STR by +6 instead of +4 (and doesn't mention DEX) and sports a weapon mount...

We all know the prices are fictional and arbitrary - but I agree that relative costs and consistently probably could have been maintained better.

 

[BP]

One thing I noticed with MGT prices - they seem to go up markedly when TL is greater than TL 12 like they have a TL premium built in...

Personnaly - I always thought that pricing items in Traveller - given its open range of TL and settings support - should have had a better game mechanic. Though arbitrary prices probably work for most people...

To be more 'realistic' would probably require TL, goods classification code and a relative range code and use dice as modifiers. I.e. - some goods may change availability/price dramaticly based on TL (like weapons, computers) while others (like food) probably won't - so a goods classification would be in order... High Guard does introduce TL mods and Mercenary has the added Availability (I would have built this into the goods classification code).

Overall, I love what Mongoose has done - pricing and tables that could have been formulas (with tables for ease - but nice forumlas for flexibility) being the areas I feel they could have most improved on.

 

[justacaveman]

My mistake. The TL14 Advanced Boarding Vacc Suit is only Cr 40,000 in the CSC., so the price difference is 560,000 credits.

I never said I can't fix it. I just don't like having to do so. I'm a bit obsessive with consistency when comes to game rules.

All in all though, MGT is a great game.

 

[BP]

...I never said I can't fix it. I just don't like having to do so. I'm a bit obsessive with consistency when comes to game rules...

Me three - as in my professional life I'm a bit (uhm...a lot) obsessive with everything .

When it comes to gaming rules I must constantly remember my mantra - 'It's just a game. It's just a game! And I'm not gonna rewrite it!'

As a ref my simple solution to the cost of items is to handle them on a case by case basis - making items 'not available' or 'available' at a different price (with a different version - Mark II - for extreme differences) given 'circumstances'. Sure this is arbitrary - just like the prices - though I could make it make more sense for me and my players.

For trade goods - I simply ignored the problems since I could treat it like a box of widgets worth x - it could be quite arbitrary since they generally didn't directly affect play.

 

[justacaveman]

As a player I only had 1 character that ever had a set of Battle Dress. The situations where I could use it were few and far between, it was a pain to smuggle through customs (I paid the original price several times over for bribes/fines.) It was really only useful about 1/2 a dozen times. I had an PGMP-13 to go along with it that I only used twice (One time I used it to fry a carload of mobster thugs, and the other players were annoyed cause they didn't get to shoot at all.). The price never really kept the stuff out of the player's hands, it was usually more trouble than it was worth (It was really good at preventing successful boading actions against us. Pirates would see the Battle Dress and have morale problems, but Combat Armour was usually just as effective). It's a poor GM that has to price things out of reach in order to keep it out of the PC's hands. It's much more fun to let them have what they want (Within reason. Some players are just insane.), and make them deal with the consequences of their actions. These sorts of things open up all kinds of roleplaying opportunities and shouldn't be arbitrarily denied.

 

[Infojunky]

My mistake. The TL14 Advanced Boarding Vacc Suit is only Cr 40,000 in the CSC., so the price difference is 560,000 credits.

I never said I can't fix it. I just don't like having to do so. I'm a bit obsessive with consistency when comes to game rules.

That isn't a uncommon failing around here.....

 

[BP]

As a player I only had 1 character that ever had a set of Battle Dress. The situations where I could use it were few and far between, ...

Well it is the sort of thing best taken out only on special occassions

... It's a poor GM that has to price things out of reach in order to keep it out of the PC's hands. It's much more fun to let them have what they want (Within reason. Some players are just insane.), and make them deal with the consequences of their actions. These sorts of things open up all kinds of roleplaying opportunities and shouldn't be arbitrarily denied.

Expensive doesn't have to mean denial. If everbody could readily have special things without having to work up to them, well then they wouldn't be special - and everyone would have them.

After they've earned it - I wouldn't penalize them for using it. Though walking into a non-combat/legitamate space port with combat gear may definately be a social/legal gaff of tall order . For those mid-desert discrete rendevouz and intership smuggler meets - snatch and grab ops and 'authorized' merc activities I can see it...

 

[Treebore]

Yeah, pricing has always bugged me, no matter what version, whether CT, MegaT, GURPS, T4, or now Mongoose T.

Actually, the 2 Mcr actually makes sense to me. Its a space suit, has its own mini nuke power plant, has a super strength exo skeleton on it, grav belt, weapons, computer, comms, and then there is the materials cost of the suit itself.

Now to be clear, I am going by Mega Traveller BD for my description, so if the Mongoose BD doesn't have its own power plant, etc... then my argument/position is obviously flawed.

However, if ??B?D still has its own power plant, etc... then I would say 2 Mcr is the first realistic pricing I have seen for it.


I do like the idea given earlier in this thread to just have these be black market pricing, not what the Imperium would pay. Which si true to some extent, because the Imperium could get bulk contract pricing, cutting their price by as much as 50%.

Then again, governments have been known to pay astronomical prices for toilets, hammers, etc....

 

[justacaveman]

Treebore wrote

Actually, the 2 Mcr actually makes sense to me. Its a space suit, has its own mini nuke power plant, has a super strength exo skeleton on it, grav belt, weapons, computer, comms, and then there is the materials cost of the suit itself.

Yes, but how does this explain the price increase of Combat Armour?