Matrix Cypher
Mongoose
I am intrigued by Mongoose traveller. Though I thing I will just drop in the armor system of T4 as a simple fix for now. Possibly even the damage from CT or T4 as they seem to work fine.
Armor Issues & House-Rules
- Thread starter Golan2072
- Start date
Matrix Cypher
Mongoose
Dermal armor, well if too low is not good enough and too high is not a good thing then figure out what too high is and choose something in between?
just sayin. :wink:
just sayin. :wink:
The only Traveller I've actually played was GURPS and the combat there is pretty nasty. The armor-to-weapon ratio appears to be skewed in favor of weapons, as long as you are using a rifle with AP ammo. If you have to stick to pistols/SMGs, then fights can take a while as the DR of armor tends to be rather high.
One thing I've noticed with damages and armor values in this (that is, the house ruled version) neighborhood (CP2020 comes to mind) is that it can often be very frustrating trying to actually drop opponents. I am of the mind to try it out in play with the normal rules to see how it goes. It seems that people who've done that here were pretty happy with it, even if it's not "perfectly realistic" (an amusing term to apply to RPGs anyway because if there's one thing I've learned in my 17 years of gaming, it's that realistic does not always make a good game).
Are there others who've got some actual play experience with the values as listed in the book? Also, since I won't receive mine until probably next Wednesday, can someone tell me how much damage the PGMP does? I'm assuming that it's enough to potentially one-shot somebody not wearing battledress, but I really have no idea. In GURPS Trav, a PGMP will basically destroy any character-scale target, even a fully battledressed individual.
One thing I've noticed with damages and armor values in this (that is, the house ruled version) neighborhood (CP2020 comes to mind) is that it can often be very frustrating trying to actually drop opponents. I am of the mind to try it out in play with the normal rules to see how it goes. It seems that people who've done that here were pretty happy with it, even if it's not "perfectly realistic" (an amusing term to apply to RPGs anyway because if there's one thing I've learned in my 17 years of gaming, it's that realistic does not always make a good game).
Are there others who've got some actual play experience with the values as listed in the book? Also, since I won't receive mine until probably next Wednesday, can someone tell me how much damage the PGMP does? I'm assuming that it's enough to potentially one-shot somebody not wearing battledress, but I really have no idea. In GURPS Trav, a PGMP will basically destroy any character-scale target, even a fully battledressed individual.
Golan2072
Cosmic Mongoose
PGMP-12 does 10d6 damage, that is 35 damage on average with an Effect of 0. My armor rating for a TL13 battledress is 18, which means that an average shot with Effect 0 would still cause 17 damage, which would be a serious wound (for the very least) for an average character. A slightly above-average PG<P-12 shot would kill an average character wearing a TL13 battledress.apoc527 said:
However, the FGMP-14 does 16d6 damage, that is, on average, 56 damage points. A TL14 Battledress has 20 armor, which means that 36 damage would get through... Usually enough to kill anyone.
Hopefully nobody will get too annoyed by my thread necromancy here.
Here's the question: a year later, what do people think of MGT's weapon vs. armor system? How many people use the house rules in this thread? How many people stick with RAW, especially now that CSC is out?
Do you find armor to be even WEAKER now that CSC has introduced armor piercing rules (even a standard rifle now ignores 1 point of protection with no special ammo)?
Here's the question: a year later, what do people think of MGT's weapon vs. armor system? How many people use the house rules in this thread? How many people stick with RAW, especially now that CSC is out?
Do you find armor to be even WEAKER now that CSC has introduced armor piercing rules (even a standard rifle now ignores 1 point of protection with no special ammo)?
CosmicGamer
Mongoose
When I want strategy, I play with miniatures or other games specifically designed for it. Traveller is for roleplaying.
What if someone with a dagger aims for your face instead of your body which is armored. With modified rules, do you still determine armor, penetration, and whatever else? Do you also determine the armor type and values for every location on the body and do rolls to determine where the opponent is struck? In a RPG, I prefer easy, quick combat. To me, the rules allow for a generalization of all the possible outcomes and it is up to the GM and players to RP the outcome.
Characters do not know what the die rolls are, exactly how many points of damage there was, or how many "points" of "health" they or their opponents have. Personally, I'm fine with the GM doing all the rolls behind the scenes. Possibly even hide the actual numbers so that a player can't sit there and analyze, 'well, I have a strength of X and an endurance of Y and just took 4 points of damage so I have this amount left and that type of weapon does this amount of damage and with my opponents DM's.... that doesn't sound like real time role playing.
Nothing for players to argue about if the GM simply says [in this example, someone with a dagger scores high damage on someone with body armor] "You see your attacker slice at your face with their dagger and you are unable to avoid it. Warm blood flows freely down your face and you have lost vision in one eye. Then the pain hits. Your eye and face are on fire and you almost black out from the pain."
I think the rules are fine for a roleplaying game. Feel free to discuss options if you want to create some other variation that is both strategy and roleplaying.
IMO, when comparing armor and weapons from a similar period, the weapons should prevail because weapons come first, then armor is created. Maybe more advanced armor will have a better chance of stopping certain types of weapons (most likely the weapons most commonly seen at that period while other, maybe even archaic weapons surprisingly still have effect [laser weapons and daggers against Reflec])
What if someone with a dagger aims for your face instead of your body which is armored. With modified rules, do you still determine armor, penetration, and whatever else? Do you also determine the armor type and values for every location on the body and do rolls to determine where the opponent is struck? In a RPG, I prefer easy, quick combat. To me, the rules allow for a generalization of all the possible outcomes and it is up to the GM and players to RP the outcome.
Characters do not know what the die rolls are, exactly how many points of damage there was, or how many "points" of "health" they or their opponents have. Personally, I'm fine with the GM doing all the rolls behind the scenes. Possibly even hide the actual numbers so that a player can't sit there and analyze, 'well, I have a strength of X and an endurance of Y and just took 4 points of damage so I have this amount left and that type of weapon does this amount of damage and with my opponents DM's.... that doesn't sound like real time role playing.
Nothing for players to argue about if the GM simply says [in this example, someone with a dagger scores high damage on someone with body armor] "You see your attacker slice at your face with their dagger and you are unable to avoid it. Warm blood flows freely down your face and you have lost vision in one eye. Then the pain hits. Your eye and face are on fire and you almost black out from the pain."
I think the rules are fine for a roleplaying game. Feel free to discuss options if you want to create some other variation that is both strategy and roleplaying.
IMO, when comparing armor and weapons from a similar period, the weapons should prevail because weapons come first, then armor is created. Maybe more advanced armor will have a better chance of stopping certain types of weapons (most likely the weapons most commonly seen at that period while other, maybe even archaic weapons surprisingly still have effect [laser weapons and daggers against Reflec])
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
Having run a couple of dozen combats by now, I can say I feel the armour/damage ratio is nicely balanced. I did have a house rule for armour piercing, but I've replaced that with the CSC system now.
Combat is sudden, brutal, and deadly. It is also reasonably quick. Armour, even low level stuff like ballistic vests, is enough to turn death into a severe wound, or a severe wound into a 'regular' one, for my PC's. That's enough for me. It allows them to lose and survive, and not be taken out by a single lucky/unlucky roll.
Increasing the armour value in my view will just make combats last much longer. It's no more realistic, just more boring. Anyway, using the CSC rules one can combine armours to boost the rating somewhat (though perhaps at a cost), but it does not alter the basic method in the TMB at all.
What the CSC and the AP does do is open up the range for vehicle armours. I'm expecting MBT type vehicles to have armour values of 4 or 5 times tech level when the Military Vehicles book comes out.
Combat is sudden, brutal, and deadly. It is also reasonably quick. Armour, even low level stuff like ballistic vests, is enough to turn death into a severe wound, or a severe wound into a 'regular' one, for my PC's. That's enough for me. It allows them to lose and survive, and not be taken out by a single lucky/unlucky roll.
Increasing the armour value in my view will just make combats last much longer. It's no more realistic, just more boring. Anyway, using the CSC rules one can combine armours to boost the rating somewhat (though perhaps at a cost), but it does not alter the basic method in the TMB at all.
What the CSC and the AP does do is open up the range for vehicle armours. I'm expecting MBT type vehicles to have armour values of 4 or 5 times tech level when the Military Vehicles book comes out.
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
However, something might need to be done about the personal+vehicle vs starship scale. Based on the prices of the G-Carrier and the Hovertrak, it will be more cost effective to build a very low g 10dton spacecraft instead of a tank - much more survivable against artillery, even with an AT of 0, than a grav tank with AT50, and cheaper too.
justacaveman
Mongoose
My solution to the personal armor problem has been to to convert half of the damage that penetrates armor to "Stun" (round up). Wound damage must be used to overwrite Stun damage first. With all remaining Wound and Stun damage being placed as per the normal rules. Stun points are recovered at a rate of 1 per full hour of rest.
Example: An NPC shoots an unwounded PC with a Gauss Pistol doing 12 points of damage. The PC is wearing cloth armor which absorbs 3 points, leaving 4 points of Wound damage and 5 points of Stun damage. The PC has END 8, STR 8, and DEX 9. The PC would apply the damage to their END first, causing 1 Stun point to be transferred to either STR or DEX (STR in this case). The next shot to the PC gets 11 points of damage past the armor (5 Wound, 6 Stun). The Wound points overwrite the 4 Stun points on END and STR first, leaving 1 Wound point and 5 Stun points to be applied where the PC chooses (STR again). The PC now has 0 END, and 2 Wound points and 5 Stun points to STR. Another NPC decides to capture the PC and shoots them with a TL10 stunner causing 11 points of stun damage. The PC's cloth armor absorbs 3 points of the stun damage requiring the PC to make an Endurance check with a -13 DM (-8 + -5 fo the Stun damage on STR), the PC fails the roll and is rendered unconcious. If the NPC had used a gauss pistol instead of a stunner (4 Wound, and 4 Stun) , the PC would now have 6 Wound points and 1 Stun point to STR and could place the remaining Stun points in either STR (causing instant unconciousness) or DEX (allowing the PC to continue the fight). Another hit, and the PC will probably be unconcious or dead.
Example: An NPC shoots an unwounded PC with a Gauss Pistol doing 12 points of damage. The PC is wearing cloth armor which absorbs 3 points, leaving 4 points of Wound damage and 5 points of Stun damage. The PC has END 8, STR 8, and DEX 9. The PC would apply the damage to their END first, causing 1 Stun point to be transferred to either STR or DEX (STR in this case). The next shot to the PC gets 11 points of damage past the armor (5 Wound, 6 Stun). The Wound points overwrite the 4 Stun points on END and STR first, leaving 1 Wound point and 5 Stun points to be applied where the PC chooses (STR again). The PC now has 0 END, and 2 Wound points and 5 Stun points to STR. Another NPC decides to capture the PC and shoots them with a TL10 stunner causing 11 points of stun damage. The PC's cloth armor absorbs 3 points of the stun damage requiring the PC to make an Endurance check with a -13 DM (-8 + -5 fo the Stun damage on STR), the PC fails the roll and is rendered unconcious. If the NPC had used a gauss pistol instead of a stunner (4 Wound, and 4 Stun) , the PC would now have 6 Wound points and 1 Stun point to STR and could place the remaining Stun points in either STR (causing instant unconciousness) or DEX (allowing the PC to continue the fight). Another hit, and the PC will probably be unconcious or dead.
