Armageddon for the Dilgar

[thePirv]

How's so? You are Dilgar and Drakh player and don't find Armageddon book worth it's price don't buy it! It's not like you are forced to buy one...

Except that there are new rules introduced in Armageddon that are kinda compulsory. I'm lucky in that i managed to get my hands on a copy of the ITF2 pdf (not saying how) which has the rules changes in it, meaning that I won't be buying the book since it has no relevance to me now. Had it included new stuff for the Drakh, i'd have ordered it straight off the bat. Mongoose just did themselves out of a sale. However, that's not the issue.

What about the other people who play Drakh and Dilgar who didn't get the ITF2 pdf. They are expected to shell out £15 for a book with hardly any relevance to them at all, just to keep up to date, then in a years time are expected to shell out for the next edition Rule Book, which will include information they should have gotten a YEAR earlier (unless they want to start carrying loose pages of S&P printouts to all of their games, asuming that new ships for the Drakh and Dilgar are released in S&P).


And as for the point that Bigger is not necessarily better...

Speaking from a purely Drakh point of view, it's a challenge just keeping a Drakh Light Cruiser alive through turn 2 when some already existing ships are on the table, for example a Primus or varient.
What happens when an opponent fields Armageddon level ships which massively outrange the Drakh and can destroy a Cruiser or Carrier with a single shot from their main beam. It will make playing as a challenging race even more difficult because 3 months after release, the Drakh are already lagging behind EVERY other race (bar the Dilgar who seem to be getting an even worse deal).

 

[tneva82]

Speaking from a purely Drakh point of view, it's a challenge just keeping a Drakh Light Cruiser alive through turn 2 when some already existing ships are on the table, for example a Primus or varient.
What happens when an opponent fields Armageddon level ships which massively outrange the Drakh and can destroy a Cruiser or Carrier with a single shot from their main beam. It will make playing as a challenging race even more difficult because 3 months after release, the Drakh are already lagging behind EVERY other race (bar the Dilgar who seem to be getting an even worse deal).

And yet there's discussion going on how 2 smaller battleships of race kicks crap out of their armageddon choises. If you can't deal with armageddon level ships how can you deal with say 2 bin'tak which going on forum discussion is actually superior choise?

If Mongoose has done job correctly you don't need armageddon level choise.

Certainly by looking at the stats of the armageddon level ships we know I would pray to face opponent who has taken one in tournament level. Easy victory for me thank you very much.

 

[Voronesh]

Ok a few comments.

The new armageddon ships mostly suck from my perspective.
1. Models: Detail, come again? Miniature?
2. As many people point out, not better than 2 war lvl ships. How often to you expect to play 5 point armageddon games?
3. You dont need to buy the book as a single person. One guy in our group buys them, the rest uses online sources and handy photocopies of the most important bits. (if this gets me banned, i dont care....thats just the same with RPGs...)
4. I own 3 versions of Classic Battletech Rulebooks the base versions, plus Aerotech2, plus some Techreadouts. I havent played a single game yet. If you like the game that much, dont complain.
5. Dilgar shouldnt have anything more powerful than raid anyway, they got huge boosts just for competiveness.
5. Drakh are seriously new, ppl are still complaining about GEG even though it is quite good.
6. Both fleet lists could use some tweaking on many ships, they just reduce themselves to too few ships, though that is the case with many fleet lists.
7. Getting angry at it wont help, basically every fleet gets something new this year. some earlier some later.
8. At a tournament your supposed to bring a book, as mentioned above, having to buy a book for a tourney is a requirement, but that is more supposed that you have the rules. If they kick you out because you bring photocopies (Its raining that hurts books...) that tourney was prolly not worth it.
9. Play the game with what you have, make up new stuff. Open source is the future. Battletech works on that already, come up with a design and share it on the forum. Maybe work it out with some detail and it might make S&P and tadaa you got an official ship.

 

[Burger]

5. Dilgar shouldnt have anything more powerful than raid anyway, they got huge boosts just for competiveness.

Why do people always say this? The priority level does not determine technological advances. It determines how powerful a ship is. Why shouldn't there be big fat Dilgar ships, just because they are low-tech doesn't mean they aren't big and equipped with lots and lots of low-tech weapons. Just because EA beat them, they could've used 20 Novas to defeat the big Dilgar ships.

 

[thePirv]

Speaking from a purely Drakh point of view, it's a challenge just keeping a Drakh Light Cruiser alive through turn 2 when some already existing ships are on the table, for example a Primus or varient.
What happens when an opponent fields Armageddon level ships which massively outrange the Drakh and can destroy a Cruiser or Carrier with a single shot from their main beam. It will make playing as a challenging race even more difficult because 3 months after release, the Drakh are already lagging behind EVERY other race (bar the Dilgar who seem to be getting an even worse deal).

And yet there's discussion going on how 2 smaller battleships of race kicks crap out of their armageddon choises. If you can't deal with armageddon level ships how can you deal with say 2 bin'tak which going on forum discussion is actually superior choise?

If Mongoose has done job correctly you don't need armageddon level choise.

Certainly by looking at the stats of the armageddon level ships we know I would pray to face opponent who has taken one in tournament level. Easy victory for me thank you very much.

Different strokes for different folks, and i'm sure that there will be times that if my opponent took an armageddon level ship i would be able to totally thrash them. At the same time, i'm also almost positive that there will be some races that, when they take an Armageddon level ship, the Drakh will not be able to beat EVER, barring pure luck, something which doesn't make for a good game.

I am not saying that having an Armageddon level ship would make all my games better, i'm simply saying that having the option to take one would have been nice.

Why are people getting so "up in my grill" about this? I haven't attacked anyone and have simply questoned as to why Drakh and Dilgar were left out of Armageddon. I feel that having paid good money for rulebooks and models, getting the same support as the rest of the community would have been nice. And having gotten an answer as to why, i'm simply pointing out the problems with this.

 

[tneva82]

At the same time, i'm also almost positive that there will be some races that, when they take an Armageddon level ship, the Drakh will not be able to beat EVER, barring pure luck, something which doesn't make for a good game

True. There are always those cases when you keep rolling 1's and opponent keeps rolling 6's. That's called game.

 

[thePirv]

At the same time, i'm also almost positive that there will be some races that, when they take an Armageddon level ship, the Drakh will not be able to beat EVER, barring pure luck, something which doesn't make for a good game

True. There are always those cases when you keep rolling 1's and opponent keeps rolling 6's. That's called game.

No, if the ONLY way to beat a fleet that's using an Armageddon level ship is to always roll 6's and the opponenet to always roll 1's, that's called "BAD GAME"

 

[katadder]

actually its quite easy to beat armageddon ships, can you beat an EA warlock atm as in the SFOS one? well then you can beat the new one cos its definately not worth 2 of the old and if you can beat that you can beat all the rest as well, hardest one will prob be the adira with its GEG or the victory with its AA but considering all your precise weapons in the drakh again shouldnt be too hard to get the crit that stops the enemy ship being effective.

 

[tneva82]

No, if the ONLY way to beat a fleet that's using an Armageddon level ship is to always roll 6's and the opponenet to always roll 1's, that's called "BAD GAME"

True. Good thing then those Armageddon level ships aren't impressive enough to require even close to such luck. More of opposite case.

Seriously pretty much each of Armageddon level choises can be bettered by 2 war level choise or 3 battle level choise. So again: If you can't beat Armageddon level choise how on earth are you going to deal with their battle/war level choises which are superior choise? :roll:

 

[thePirv]

actually its quite easy to beat armageddon ships, can you beat an EA warlock atm as in the SFOS one? well then you can beat the new one cos its definately not worth 2 of the old and if you can beat that you can beat all the rest as well, hardest one will prob be the adira with its GEG or the victory with its AA but considering all your precise weapons in the drakh again shouldnt be too hard to get the crit that stops the enemy ship being effective.

I must admit, i haven't taken on a Warlock yet, but what worries me are the Arma level ships that will massively outrange my 25" longest range with masses more firepower. Even a Cruiser will get killed in one round by some of these bigger beams without ever getting a shot off.
And what use is a Mothership or Carrier if it has the Huge Hangars crippled on turn one due to a 'big' beam hit that does masses of damage.

As i said, when a Battle level Primus can kill a Light Cruiser in a single main gun shot, it does not bode well for trying to take on Armageddon Level ships. Count in the fact that fighters now get to move after AND shoot before Cap Ships, it means that Light Raiders are going to be hard presed to be useful.

Having an Armageddon level ship for the Drakh would have leveled the playing field. That's all i'm saying. I just feel that it would have been better to have a that level playing field now than in 6 months to a years time.

 

[TenaciousB]

I don't care if Armageddon ships can be easily beaten. I don't care if Armageddon ships are made of slugs and snails and puppy dogs tails, for freak sake. The point people are making (and what other users of this forum are clearly finding it difficult to grasp) is that, and I'll say it for the cheap seats:

THE DRAKH AND DILGAR GOT LEFT OUT OF THE ARMAGEDDON EXPANSION.

Simple as that.

I'm sorry for being so blunt, but I'm sick of reading post after post about how easy it is to take down a ship at that level. I'm not talking about tactics. I'm talking about the Dilgar and Drakh getting the shaft in terms of goodies.

 

[tneva82]

Even a Cruiser will get killed in one round by some of these bigger beams without ever getting a shot off..

So better pray opponents waste their FAP's on armageddon choises rather than bunch of battle or war choises which would be more effective...That way you would have more even playing field then.

 

[thePirv]

Even a Cruiser will get killed in one round by some of these bigger beams without ever getting a shot off..

So better pray opponents waste their FAP's on armageddon choises rather than bunch of battle or war choises which would be more effective...That way you would have more even playing field then.

OPEN YOUR F***ING EARS!

I'M NOT SAYING EVERY ARMAGEDDON LEVEL SHIP WILL BE SUPER AGAINST THE DRAKH. I'M JUST SAYING THAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT THE FEW WHO WILL HAVE VERY POWERFUL LONG RANGE BEAMS CAPABLE OF TOTALLY DESTROYING MY BEST SHIPS IN A SINGLE SHOT AND THAT IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE SOMETHING TO TAKE THEM ON WITH ON EQUAL TERMS!

 

[tneva82]

I'M NOT SAYING EVERY ARMAGEDDON LEVEL SHIP WILL BE SUPER AGAINST THE DRAKH. I'M JUST SAYING THAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT THE FEW WHO WILL HAVE VERY POWERFUL LONG RANGE BEAMS CAPABLE OF TOTALLY DESTROYING MY BEST SHIPS IN A SINGLE SHOT AND THAT IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE SOMETHING TO TAKE THEM ON WITH ON EQUAL TERMS!

Those races will have lower level ships with just as nasty beams but those he can bring by bucketload.

So instead of 1 nasty beam you would have 2 or 3 nasty beams...

You are just exagerating the issue.

 

[Voronesh]

5. Dilgar shouldnt have anything more powerful than raid anyway, they got huge boosts just for competiveness.

Why do people always say this? The priority level does not determine technological advances. It determines how powerful a ship is. Why shouldn't there be big fat Dilgar ships, just because they are low-tech doesn't mean they aren't big and equipped with lots and lots of low-tech weapons. Just because EA beat them, they could've used 20 Novas to defeat the big Dilgar ships.

Uhh you are right, but every other race had maybe, with a big maybe a battle lvl ship at hand. Most of them only had raid. Unless the EA had 6 Nova for every Mishakur, i dont see how they could have won the war.

But then again, how did they lose the EA-Minbari war, of they had such huge masses of ships.

Sry Mishakurs and Sharlins are currently projected at the same lvl, one race is ground to dust, the other isnt....ehhrm.

And before you start to tell me about how Minbari had bigger numbers, the Dilgar had experience, ALOT more of it. The Minbari havent had a fight in their lifetimes. The Dilgar had just finished with conquering a fleck of space.
And on top, EA came out stronger out of that war, so putting them effectlively at even better an overall fleet strength.

Now how did they lose the EA-Minbari war They just won one, that was a little smaller, yes, but they got alot of goodies out of it.

Either one or the other, both dont make sense.

 

[tneva82]

But then again, how did they lose the EA-Minbari war, of they had such huge masses of ships.

Inability to break stealth(and ergo shoot with any efficiency) might have something to do with it Looking at the game stats might not be best way to explain what happened in the story.

 

[Burger]

And before you start to tell me about how Minbari had bigger numbers, the Dilgar had experience, ALOT more of it. The Minbari havent had a fight in their lifetimes. The Dilgar had just finished with conquering a fleck of space.

Minbari haven't had a fight? What was that little run-in with the Shadows 1000 years ago then? They have an entire 1/3 of their population devoted to war.

Minbari had bigger numbers of the big ships. Just watch In The Beginning: 27 Sharlins vs 1 Olympus

 

[thePirv]

No, i'm simply stating a valid concern in that the Drakh don't even have the option to field an Armageddon level ship. Perhaps 2 war level ships is more scary than an Arma level ship, THAT'S BESIDES THE POINT! Having the option to fight fire with fire and take an Armageddon level ship of my own is the issue.

If any other race, say the Narn or Centauri had been left out of Armageddon, those players would have gone batshit and IMMEDIATELY something would have been done to fix the problem. But because it's only 2 smaller fleets, the general consensus seems to be "Well who cares?"

The problem is, the players who Mongoose have just decided to abandon for 6 months to a year care.

 

[Voronesh]

I don't care if Armageddon ships can be easily beaten. I don't care if Armageddon ships are made of slugs and snails and puppy dogs tails, for freak sake. The point people are making (and what other users of this forum are clearly finding it difficult to grasp) is that, and I'll say it for the cheap seats:

THE DRAKH AND DILGAR GOT LEFT OUT OF THE ARMAGEDDON EXPANSION.

Simple as that.

I'm sorry for being so blunt, but I'm sick of reading post after post about how easy it is to take down a ship at that level. I'm not talking about tactics. I'm talking about the Dilgar and Drakh getting the shaft in terms of goodies.

You just got a whole Fleetbook a few months ago. Ppl are still bitching about GEG being too weak. Theres no way to introduce new stuff. Take it slow.

Dilgar? They are just half a year old, goddamit. HBow often do you want new stuff? S&P had a whole new raider fleet dilgar style for free. Not as juicy yes, but theres your new ship.

Its even stated in the fluff as actually being a design from the original Dilgar empire.

Putting Drakh into Armageddon would have meant, that MGP could have just published it into the fleet book. The Release time back then wasnt that long in the difference.

Dilgar are semi, they could have used something, but then again after only 6 months they dont really dont need anything new.

And yes i like Dilgar. I have no problem with them getting nothing, That is not the shaft, after just introducing them.



BTW:
How did you survive 40k? New stuff doesnt necessarily come out for multiple years at all. And certainly not for a full year if the codex is planned. Maybe more. Sure the bigger ones always get some bits and pieces, but thats the same here. You play DIlgar, they arent as important on the whole scale. So you wont get something new all the time. EA is where the shiny toys are, and thats it.

 

[Voronesh]

And before you start to tell me about how Minbari had bigger numbers, the Dilgar had experience, ALOT more of it. The Minbari havent had a fight in their lifetimes. The Dilgar had just finished with conquering a fleck of space.

Minbari haven't had a fight? What was that little run-in with the Shadows 1000 years ago then? They have an entire 1/3 of their population devoted to war.

Minbari had bigger numbers of the big ships. Just watch In The Beginning: 27 Sharlins vs 1 Olympus

First Minbari live what? 150 years if theyre lucky. Nope experience isnt genetic sorry.

27 Sharlins versus the Olympus right. And where are all the Novas used during the Dilgar war all of the sudden????