lastbesthope
Mongoose
Gabriel_Luna said:
Yes, but that was just what the EA thought the Minbari were doing, and why EA thought they were doing it, maybe Neroon could tell us.
LBH
Are the Minbari as bad as the Dilgar?
- Thread starter Greg Smith
- Start date
Yes, but that was just what the EA thought the Minbari were doing, and why EA thought they were doing it, maybe Neroon could tell us.
LBH
Gabriel_Luna
Mongoose
Valid point. We should ask Neroon. He'd sort this whole thing out.
Actually, speaking of Neroon, didn't he claim to have killed 50,000 humans during the war? During his fight with Marcus in Gray 17 Is Missing...I assume that factors in ships his Sharlin killed, perhaps even fleets he commanded, or planets he bombarded, but no matter how you slice it that's a LOT for one commander to claim. Meaning that the Minbari were probably hell bent on killing every human they could get within weapons range...
Anyway, the point is the comparison between the Minbari and Dilgar. I think I'd have to second the opinion that the Minbari are ruthless, while the Dilgar are cruel. Even the Trigati crew, renegades and outcaste, didn't just go off and kill humans. Even they retained honor to the very end.
Given the League's reaction to the Dilgar, I think it's safe to say that cruelty and viciousness are close to racial traits. I suspect the Dilgar have their own version of species honor, but the way they conducted an unprovoked war of aggression (at least, I've never heard any reason given for them to lash out at anyone, let alone _everyone_ ) differs from the Minbari. The Minbari at least thought they had a reason, in the beginning.
So I don't think the Minbari are as "bad" as the Dilgar. Their reasons were different. They might have been as effective as the Dilgar (though they eschewed the Dilgar's methods of waging war, as we know they didn't take Deathwalker's weapons from the Wind Swords), but the reasons behind their actions were very different.
In summary, my take is this: if you poke at the Minbari hard enough you might lose your planet, true, but with the Dilgar, they might flip out on you for no reason other than they don't like the way you were looking at their ship.
Actually, speaking of Neroon, didn't he claim to have killed 50,000 humans during the war? During his fight with Marcus in Gray 17 Is Missing...I assume that factors in ships his Sharlin killed, perhaps even fleets he commanded, or planets he bombarded, but no matter how you slice it that's a LOT for one commander to claim. Meaning that the Minbari were probably hell bent on killing every human they could get within weapons range...
Anyway, the point is the comparison between the Minbari and Dilgar. I think I'd have to second the opinion that the Minbari are ruthless, while the Dilgar are cruel. Even the Trigati crew, renegades and outcaste, didn't just go off and kill humans. Even they retained honor to the very end.
Given the League's reaction to the Dilgar, I think it's safe to say that cruelty and viciousness are close to racial traits. I suspect the Dilgar have their own version of species honor, but the way they conducted an unprovoked war of aggression (at least, I've never heard any reason given for them to lash out at anyone, let alone _everyone_ ) differs from the Minbari. The Minbari at least thought they had a reason, in the beginning.
So I don't think the Minbari are as "bad" as the Dilgar. Their reasons were different. They might have been as effective as the Dilgar (though they eschewed the Dilgar's methods of waging war, as we know they didn't take Deathwalker's weapons from the Wind Swords), but the reasons behind their actions were very different.
In summary, my take is this: if you poke at the Minbari hard enough you might lose your planet, true, but with the Dilgar, they might flip out on you for no reason other than they don't like the way you were looking at their ship.
The Minbari are an oddly portrayed race sometimes - on the one hand they seem to have a respect for life (constantly portrayed in Delenn throughout the series) and yet on the other they are extremely self-righteous and vengeful when provoked.
Some would consider the cold blooded, cowardly and unprovoked murder of their leader in the face of an open handed gesture of peace on a diplomatic mission to be ample justification for war. The EA clearly didn't know what it had done (though their EarthForce commanders were negligent in allowing the commander of Prometheus into a first contact situation), it sought a diplomatic solution.
Unfortunately, the grey council were enraged at the situation, and made a rash decision. A rash decision which was then compounded by the EAs reaction (be it canon or non canon) of attempting to strike back.
Now, as for the Dilgar - they waged their war to conquer others, despite the fact that they surely could've found and colonised another planet peacefully. The Minbari had little interest in the affairs of others - only in defending their federation. And they defend it in a brutal fashion, which is probably why the Centuari have never dared to challenge them.
Some would consider the cold blooded, cowardly and unprovoked murder of their leader in the face of an open handed gesture of peace on a diplomatic mission to be ample justification for war. The EA clearly didn't know what it had done (though their EarthForce commanders were negligent in allowing the commander of Prometheus into a first contact situation), it sought a diplomatic solution.
Unfortunately, the grey council were enraged at the situation, and made a rash decision. A rash decision which was then compounded by the EAs reaction (be it canon or non canon) of attempting to strike back.
Now, as for the Dilgar - they waged their war to conquer others, despite the fact that they surely could've found and colonised another planet peacefully. The Minbari had little interest in the affairs of others - only in defending their federation. And they defend it in a brutal fashion, which is probably why the Centuari have never dared to challenge them.
cthol24601
Mongoose
I seem to remember in the fluff from the fleet book in call to arms etc that while the DIlgar were horridly vicious and cruel to non Dilgar they were extremely loyal and supportive to each other. ie lines like no Dilgar would willing compete with another Dilgar so long as a third party is around. A race that is vicious and cruel all the time simply cannot function as a society they need to have cooperation in order to have technology. I think perhaps the Nazi or Imperial Japanese model might be a good one. Vicious and cruel to non Dilgar (ie inferior) but if you are one you find the society supportive, true to your values and even kind. The Dilgar were also recorded in tremendous acts of desperation (or perhaps courage to borrow from Dlenn's view of Humans in "In the Beginning) through suicidal attacks against earth vessels and kamikaze strikes etc. This clearly belies a sense of self sacrifice and honour for the greater good. Given the Dilgar worked as mercenaries for the Centauri etc if I remember correctly perhaps it is better to see them as a species that was simply not ready for the culture shock of a cosmopolitan galaxy, to which they simply applied their experience with the other sentient Dilgar races too out of response. It makes them reactionarily cruel and vicious acting out of culture shock not cruel and vicious as racial traits.
The Nazis and Imperial Japanese had many cases of people who were good family men and women and seen as kind and supportive to friends etc but were brutally vicious to people considered inhuman. Indeed, if WWII (and countless other genocides and atrocities) showed nothing it was that ordinary men and women can commit horrid atrocities if they believe the victims are some how inhuman or inferior.
Just thinking it allows for richness of character etc. I think in this light Jha Dur from Deathwalker is responding out of bitterness at what she sees as the hypocrisy of the other races in their denegration of the Dilgar which she views of course as superior and pure.
The Minbari are over reactionary and ruthless but not deliberately cruel. I think the comparison with the US after 911 is also a good one. However I don't by the genocide argument simply because the Minbarri didn't seem to do any. They were ruthless military opponents and not shy of indiscriminate collatoral damage, again like the post 9/11 US but were never seen to be attacking civilian targets for the hell of it. Nor did they seem to have the big insecurity chip on their should like the Dilgar (again linking them to the Nazis and Japanese and perhaps the Soviets) I think the claims was more military hyperbole and propaganda describing a ruthless war with horrid carnage rather than a deliberate Nazi or Japanese style genocide and concentration camps of the Dilgar war. Perhaps a comparison of Rome with Carthage is a good example. Destroyed the civilization in a ruthless war of conquest but far from destroyed the whole population of the Carthaginian empire.
However like the Dilgar the Minbarri see all other races as inferior which does let them commit atrocities when it suits them without remorse. Just not with the deliberate cruelty of the Dilgar.
The Nazis and Imperial Japanese had many cases of people who were good family men and women and seen as kind and supportive to friends etc but were brutally vicious to people considered inhuman. Indeed, if WWII (and countless other genocides and atrocities) showed nothing it was that ordinary men and women can commit horrid atrocities if they believe the victims are some how inhuman or inferior.
Just thinking it allows for richness of character etc. I think in this light Jha Dur from Deathwalker is responding out of bitterness at what she sees as the hypocrisy of the other races in their denegration of the Dilgar which she views of course as superior and pure.
The Minbari are over reactionary and ruthless but not deliberately cruel. I think the comparison with the US after 911 is also a good one. However I don't by the genocide argument simply because the Minbarri didn't seem to do any. They were ruthless military opponents and not shy of indiscriminate collatoral damage, again like the post 9/11 US but were never seen to be attacking civilian targets for the hell of it. Nor did they seem to have the big insecurity chip on their should like the Dilgar (again linking them to the Nazis and Japanese and perhaps the Soviets) I think the claims was more military hyperbole and propaganda describing a ruthless war with horrid carnage rather than a deliberate Nazi or Japanese style genocide and concentration camps of the Dilgar war. Perhaps a comparison of Rome with Carthage is a good example. Destroyed the civilization in a ruthless war of conquest but far from destroyed the whole population of the Carthaginian empire.
However like the Dilgar the Minbarri see all other races as inferior which does let them commit atrocities when it suits them without remorse. Just not with the deliberate cruelty of the Dilgar.
Celisasu
Mongoose
Are the Minbari as bad as the Dilgar? No. Are they still pretty aweful? Definately. They chose to embark on a campaign of genocide against humanity. Yes, the human captain acted foolishly. Then again so did the Minbari. How after thousands of years in space you don't realize that some species might see open gun ports and powerful sensors capable of disabling your jump drive as an act of aggression I don't know. Maybe they exterminated all of the species who did.
They're also impressively callous about the value of life of non-Minbari. On more than one occasion they've just popped with the idea of killing one person or another so as to deal with a problem, even if the person has done no wrong. Just because it's convenient. Luckily Delenn tends to keep things under control. Heck, the Council system might be all that keeps the Minbari under a semblance of control. Look how quickly the Warrior Caste swooped down upon the Religious Caste once the Council was disbanded. And how quickly members of the Religious Caste were willing to kill their own just out of rumors. Maybe the natural Minbari state is one of extreme aggression.
They're also impressively callous about the value of life of non-Minbari. On more than one occasion they've just popped with the idea of killing one person or another so as to deal with a problem, even if the person has done no wrong. Just because it's convenient. Luckily Delenn tends to keep things under control. Heck, the Council system might be all that keeps the Minbari under a semblance of control. Look how quickly the Warrior Caste swooped down upon the Religious Caste once the Council was disbanded. And how quickly members of the Religious Caste were willing to kill their own just out of rumors. Maybe the natural Minbari state is one of extreme aggression.
cthol24601
Mongoose
I'd go along with that. I also think its interesting that the religious caste go to great pains to conceal just how volatile and violent their culture is and the callousness with which they see other (in their minds lesser races). I think that is a large part of Jha dur's bitterness in Deathwalker, the sheer hypocrisy of the other races, even the simple fact that the superficially pious Minbarri were perfectly happy to use Dilgar illegal weapons and support that research (along with the Centauri and Narn) yet could sit back and pontificate about Dilgar barbarism etc. Not to mention that most of the yonger races have that kind of thing in their history.
The Minbarri may not be as overtly cruel as the Dilgar but the Dilgar were desperate and the Minbarri, when you scratch the surface, can be every bit as unethical, vicious and brutal, like most civilizations even the Vorlons.
One of the things I love so much about the B5 universe is the way in which each race maintains its own definite cultural peculiarities but still runs the moral and ethical gammut, again even the Vorlons. Individuals belonging to races are individuals with their own issues and foibles yet still have a sense of common cultural identity. Very few other Scifi shows have that kind of sublety. Well, outside of Firefly and Farscape anyway.
But back to the original question I quite agree with you and I think that while the Minbarri are secure enough to no need to be reduced to the level of atrocities the Dilgar were if you scratch the surface enough they can be close to as viscous and brutal. Not to mention the Centauri, Narn, Vorlon, Shadow and even parts of Earth gov' such as Psicorp.
The Minbarri may not be as overtly cruel as the Dilgar but the Dilgar were desperate and the Minbarri, when you scratch the surface, can be every bit as unethical, vicious and brutal, like most civilizations even the Vorlons.
One of the things I love so much about the B5 universe is the way in which each race maintains its own definite cultural peculiarities but still runs the moral and ethical gammut, again even the Vorlons. Individuals belonging to races are individuals with their own issues and foibles yet still have a sense of common cultural identity. Very few other Scifi shows have that kind of sublety. Well, outside of Firefly and Farscape anyway.
But back to the original question I quite agree with you and I think that while the Minbarri are secure enough to no need to be reduced to the level of atrocities the Dilgar were if you scratch the surface enough they can be close to as viscous and brutal. Not to mention the Centauri, Narn, Vorlon, Shadow and even parts of Earth gov' such as Psicorp.
Celisasu said:
Then again maybe this wasn't intended but was simply case of bad luck with less-than-advanced technology of EA.
Dunno. Thousand year of suppressed problems might snap back pretty fast. Not sure if even not-breaking the council would have really held the civil war back(except for few years).
The facts, as we know them, are simple. We blundered, they got angry, they lashed out... If they were children at this point we'd expect what happened, but these were two fairly advanced civilizations. I don't care how angry you are, or hurt you are that you're beloved leader was killed. You do not claim millions of lives for that one! By God that's worse than the penalties imposed by the Centauri on Narn lives should one of them be killed by the other.
I know that people say the Grey Council regretted their actions but where do they show it. It's obvious they had the power to stop the war they eventually do... the key word there is eventually. These people allowed a conflict they didn't belive in to continue. That meant the loss of thousands, if not millions more human lives... why because though they regretted the decision to start the war they lacked the backbone to stop it.
I honestly think at times like that we see a person (or civilizations) true face. The Minbarri are ruthless and heartless when it comes to non-Minbarri... hell further in the series we see this applied even within their own race.
Think about it. De'Lenn is on of the most "Minbarri" characters we know (though shes half human most of the show), but she's capable of causing harm when necessary and even when it's not. For simply asking about the Setai De'lenn threatens to crush/kill G'kar. For threatening the man she cares about De'Lenn threatens to destroy earth ships. For offending him Lenier shows his rage and strength to Marcos. Although alot of these things are romantic and great drama, they show the heart of the Minbarri.
Their reactions are often out proportion to what ellicited them.
Are they worse than the Dilgar, judgement call... No. But they're just as bad. The difference is the Minbarri get a chance to redeem themselves because no coalition of worlds gathered and was strong enough to take them down. The Dilgar were wiped out so they never get that chance.
I know that people say the Grey Council regretted their actions but where do they show it. It's obvious they had the power to stop the war they eventually do... the key word there is eventually. These people allowed a conflict they didn't belive in to continue. That meant the loss of thousands, if not millions more human lives... why because though they regretted the decision to start the war they lacked the backbone to stop it.
I honestly think at times like that we see a person (or civilizations) true face. The Minbarri are ruthless and heartless when it comes to non-Minbarri... hell further in the series we see this applied even within their own race.
Think about it. De'Lenn is on of the most "Minbarri" characters we know (though shes half human most of the show), but she's capable of causing harm when necessary and even when it's not. For simply asking about the Setai De'lenn threatens to crush/kill G'kar. For threatening the man she cares about De'Lenn threatens to destroy earth ships. For offending him Lenier shows his rage and strength to Marcos. Although alot of these things are romantic and great drama, they show the heart of the Minbarri.
Their reactions are often out proportion to what ellicited them.
Are they worse than the Dilgar, judgement call... No. But they're just as bad. The difference is the Minbarri get a chance to redeem themselves because no coalition of worlds gathered and was strong enough to take them down. The Dilgar were wiped out so they never get that chance.
cthol24601
Mongoose
Totally. I completely agree with you here. I find, the lit, while sketchy leads me to the conclusion that the Dilgar, outside of the malevolent nature of the regime, are the kind of insular people that are supportive to other Dilgar but see other races as not reallysentient (essentially dog doodoo on a stick). The Minbarri are much the same but they have the chance, experience and the lack of fanatical urgency created by the threat of extinction from a sun going Nova. I think the Dilgar, if they had time, would have ended up much like the Centauri, a conquering arrogant civilization but far from lacking redeeming qualities. One of the strengths of B5 compared to other Sci-fi like Star trek, is that within the parameters of race and culture there is a lot of individual variation and growth. Even amongst the Vorlons.
I find the Dilgar as a forgotten race really fascinating for role playing in this respect. I just bought into the crucile and I think it gives a lot of insight into how the Dilgar can be configured as a fascinating multi-faceted race for the RPG. QUite a lot of potential for gothic outsider (in the literary not bad fashion sense of the term) role-playing within the B5 universe. Actually the woman from Crusade gives me ideas as a way of constructing a Dilgar survivor as a character or NPC template.
I find the Dilgar as a forgotten race really fascinating for role playing in this respect. I just bought into the crucile and I think it gives a lot of insight into how the Dilgar can be configured as a fascinating multi-faceted race for the RPG. QUite a lot of potential for gothic outsider (in the literary not bad fashion sense of the term) role-playing within the B5 universe. Actually the woman from Crusade gives me ideas as a way of constructing a Dilgar survivor as a character or NPC template.
Whether someone is good/bad/evil is all a matter of our individual perseption.
Is it bad to act out of fear, paid or anger? Because this is what caused the Minbari to act, anger, fear and pain of loss, to end a threat they percived.
You can not say that becuse some Minbari realised that they were acting wrongly that they had the ablity to stop the war.
When a culture who have spent generations imposing order and control over their emotions finaly lose themselvs to these very emotions (which was inevitable) the result is bound to be disaster on a tremindeus scale that will snowball out of all control.
The Minbari acted as a race not as individuals. Can one elephant stop a stamped once it has began?
But do we have the right to condem any socity for this? Is there anyone who can claim to have never acted out of fear, pain or anger, or to have not regetted their actions having done so?
Is it bad to act out of fear, paid or anger? Because this is what caused the Minbari to act, anger, fear and pain of loss, to end a threat they percived.
You can not say that becuse some Minbari realised that they were acting wrongly that they had the ablity to stop the war.
When a culture who have spent generations imposing order and control over their emotions finaly lose themselvs to these very emotions (which was inevitable) the result is bound to be disaster on a tremindeus scale that will snowball out of all control.
The Minbari acted as a race not as individuals. Can one elephant stop a stamped once it has began?
But do we have the right to condem any socity for this? Is there anyone who can claim to have never acted out of fear, pain or anger, or to have not regetted their actions having done so?
"Is it bad to act out of fear, paid or anger? Because this is what caused the Minbari to act, anger, fear and pain of loss, to end a threat they percived. "
"The Minbari acted as a race not as individuals. Can one elephant stop a stamped once it has began?
But do we have the right to condem any socity for this? Is there anyone who can claim to have never acted out of fear, pain or anger, or to have not regetted their actions having done so?"
You can say the same thing about the Dilgar. They acted in panic, the knowledge that one's homeworld is a ticking bomb can do that. They went crazy together and they did crazy things. I know people say that they tortured and that's the huge dividing line... but the truth is how many of us in pain haven't tried to drag others into the muck with us. Imagine losing the thing that defies your very culture. Imagine having to hide it because there are countless enemies out there who will take advantage of your weakness... then imagine the dash to find a solution, the people who you would step on in the name of expediency (hell we do the same thing in rl and don't consider our gov't evil (IMO)).
But you make my argument for me. I don't say that either race is evil only that the Minbari come out of it looking better in the end because they have a chance to redeem themselves.
"You can not say that becuse some Minbari realised that they were acting wrongly that they had the ablity to stop the war.
When a culture who have spent generations imposing order and control over their emotions finaly lose themselvs to these very emotions (which was inevitable) the result is bound to be disaster on a tremindeus scale that will snowball out of all control. "
Ahhh, but I can say that simply because when they wanted to they did. They didn't explain themselves, they simply issued the order and for the most part it was obeyed. They Grey Council always had the power they just lacked the will. Now, I'm certain that stopping earlier would have been problematic for other reasons... (by the time they did stop I'm certain alot of that rage had been exorcised with blood and death)... but how much more so that they made them stop on the eve of victory... No... I won't accept that the Grey Council that had the power to stop these people on the porch of victory against the humans couldn't have also had the power to stop them earlier.
In the end though this all "IMO". We never get to see the Dilgar (save one) we never get to know them as a race... I assume they weren't complete issolationists which means beofre the War they had soem interactions with others... They didn't just pluck and kill everyone they meet (that's the Strieb). The beauty of JMS's world is that we have this rich history... with holes in it. There are alot more stories to tell. As much as I yearn to hear the story of the Telepath War I always want to know waht happened in the Dilgar war... to learn what kind of ppl they were before massive panic set in. Though I don't judge either race worse than the other ... I do have to admit that there is a part of me that understands what the Dilgar did a little bit better. I can't explain why that is ... I only know it is. I comprehend the raving madness of losing someone you love and revere but the proportion is so out of whack. The stark terror of a countdown on your homeworld ... the I can understand the proportion there ... more (dont get me wrong ... it's still out of whack though).
"The Minbari acted as a race not as individuals. Can one elephant stop a stamped once it has began?
But do we have the right to condem any socity for this? Is there anyone who can claim to have never acted out of fear, pain or anger, or to have not regetted their actions having done so?"
You can say the same thing about the Dilgar. They acted in panic, the knowledge that one's homeworld is a ticking bomb can do that. They went crazy together and they did crazy things. I know people say that they tortured and that's the huge dividing line... but the truth is how many of us in pain haven't tried to drag others into the muck with us. Imagine losing the thing that defies your very culture. Imagine having to hide it because there are countless enemies out there who will take advantage of your weakness... then imagine the dash to find a solution, the people who you would step on in the name of expediency (hell we do the same thing in rl and don't consider our gov't evil (IMO)).
But you make my argument for me. I don't say that either race is evil only that the Minbari come out of it looking better in the end because they have a chance to redeem themselves.
"You can not say that becuse some Minbari realised that they were acting wrongly that they had the ablity to stop the war.
When a culture who have spent generations imposing order and control over their emotions finaly lose themselvs to these very emotions (which was inevitable) the result is bound to be disaster on a tremindeus scale that will snowball out of all control. "
Ahhh, but I can say that simply because when they wanted to they did. They didn't explain themselves, they simply issued the order and for the most part it was obeyed. They Grey Council always had the power they just lacked the will. Now, I'm certain that stopping earlier would have been problematic for other reasons... (by the time they did stop I'm certain alot of that rage had been exorcised with blood and death)... but how much more so that they made them stop on the eve of victory... No... I won't accept that the Grey Council that had the power to stop these people on the porch of victory against the humans couldn't have also had the power to stop them earlier.
In the end though this all "IMO". We never get to see the Dilgar (save one) we never get to know them as a race... I assume they weren't complete issolationists which means beofre the War they had soem interactions with others... They didn't just pluck and kill everyone they meet (that's the Strieb). The beauty of JMS's world is that we have this rich history... with holes in it. There are alot more stories to tell. As much as I yearn to hear the story of the Telepath War I always want to know waht happened in the Dilgar war... to learn what kind of ppl they were before massive panic set in. Though I don't judge either race worse than the other ... I do have to admit that there is a part of me that understands what the Dilgar did a little bit better. I can't explain why that is ... I only know it is. I comprehend the raving madness of losing someone you love and revere but the proportion is so out of whack. The stark terror of a countdown on your homeworld ... the I can understand the proportion there ... more (dont get me wrong ... it's still out of whack though).
Timestheus
Mongoose
As a side note against the Minbari. Members of the Warrior Caste were quite willing to start the war up all over again when Dukats body was stolen by the Religous Caste and they assumed that a human did it.
It is also fairly obvious that this was NOT a bluff.
A final point against the Minbari. They are a race of petulent brats. They named Sheridan "Starkiller" because he destroyed their precious warship. A warship that had destroyed dozens of EA ships and thus killed thousands of humans. A race that arrogant and immature just deserves to die.
It is also fairly obvious that this was NOT a bluff.
A final point against the Minbari. They are a race of petulent brats. They named Sheridan "Starkiller" because he destroyed their precious warship. A warship that had destroyed dozens of EA ships and thus killed thousands of humans. A race that arrogant and immature just deserves to die.
Gabriel_Luna
Mongoose
I don't disagree that the Minbari are a bit petulant and full of themselves, but I will point out one thing: they didn't hate him just because he blew up their ship. They hated him because he did it with a sneak attack, and not in honorable combat. ("honorable combat" in this case meant the humans were totally outclassed, so it's no different than an expert duelist picking a fight with someone he knows he can defeat, but that's how they see it, I think) So to them, "Starkiller" meant more "assassin" than "enemy commander who beat us once".
It doesn't change the fact that they attempted genocide though...
It doesn't change the fact that they attempted genocide though...
Timestheus
Mongoose
Gabriel_Luna said:
That would merely make them immature arrogant hyprocrites as well. The Minbari used a dead in space flyer to entice the Earth Force fleet into position so that the Minbari warship coming out of hyperspace could destroy most of the ships with the hyperspace vortex.
It also makes the Minbari complete and utter cowards considering the huge advatange they have in ships and technology and yet the STILL had to use deception to take out most of the EA ships.
Minbari = Arrogant, Brutal, Racist, Immature, Hypocritical, Cowards
Timestheus said:
Yeah I sort of agree esp last statement but with the priviso like Humans, Centauri, Narn (Shadows and Vorlons?) some of them are and some are not...........?
It always amuses me that many of the races that go on and on about honour basically cheat in battles - Klingons/ Minbari - yeah its honourable for us to shoot you when you can't shoot back :roll: The Kurita's and Clans (BattleTech) had "honour" systems and committed genocide more than the others......the Dilgar prob had a wierd honour system (check out the great story in the fan fiction pages)!
any race who goes on about honour - shoot them in the back before they do it to you...............
Timestheus
Mongoose
Da Boss said:It always amuses me that many of the races that go on and on about honour basically cheat in battles - Klingons/ Minbari - yeah its honourable for us to shoot you when you can't shoot back :roll: The Kurita's and Clans (BattleTech) had "honour" systems and committed genocide more than the others......the Dilgar prob had a wierd honour system (check out the great story in the fan fiction pages)!
any race who goes on about honour - shoot them in the back before they do it to you...............
At least in Sci-Fi "honor" seems to require that the foe be considered the equal of yourself for you to be required to deal with them honorably.
Actually at least in some historical societies this was true too. The Japanese Samurai were big into honor yet they had no problem butchering peasants when they felt like it.
Why?
Because peasants were beneath them and not worthy of inclusion in their little honor society.
Also if you win it dosen't matter what you did to win because you can write the history and make it out to your version of events. The winner is always the good guys because they write the history that way. Thats why we have the Minbari as so strange they didn't win and so can't write the history to suit them and EA didn't win and so can't write the history to suit themselves.
Warhawk
Mongoose
I am a bit lost, What book is the Garmak Empire talked about in?
With out reading about the Garmak I have to say the Manbari are still pretty bad.
At first the reason for the war was the death of the leader but after 6 months or a year and the death of thousands it is not about one man dieing. The warrior caste keep going because humans where easy to kill.
Yea the warriors got mad about "Star Killer" but how many people are going to go into a fight knowing you are out classed, out gunned and knowing you are going to die? And if my memory is right the Manbari was coming to kill the humans still alive. That is like would be like in WWII showing up after you sink the enemy ship and killing everyone in life boats(sounds evil to me)
With out reading about the Garmak I have to say the Manbari are still pretty bad.
At first the reason for the war was the death of the leader but after 6 months or a year and the death of thousands it is not about one man dieing. The warrior caste keep going because humans where easy to kill.
Yea the warriors got mad about "Star Killer" but how many people are going to go into a fight knowing you are out classed, out gunned and knowing you are going to die? And if my memory is right the Manbari was coming to kill the humans still alive. That is like would be like in WWII showing up after you sink the enemy ship and killing everyone in life boats(sounds evil to me)
