Are the Minbari as bad as the Dilgar?

[tneva82]

At first the reason for the war was the death of the leader but after 6 months or a year and the death of thousands it is not about one man dieing. The warrior caste keep going because humans where easy to kill.

No. They kept going because there was still humans left. Minbari don't fight wars for half-measures.

Imagine allied forces stopping half-way before Germans were defeated in WW2...Yeah right. We landed in Normandy but then we stop the war. As if :lol:

Reason for war hadn't changed so why would they stop? Goal not completed. Why stop?

 

[Da Boss]

I am a bit lost, What book is the Garmak Empire talked about in?


With out reading about the Garmak I have to say the Manbari are still pretty bad.

At first the reason for the war was the death of the leader but after 6 months or a year and the death of thousands it is not about one man dieing. The warrior caste keep going because humans where easy to kill.

Yea the warriors got mad about "Star Killer" but how many people are going to go into a fight knowing you are out classed, out gunned and knowing you are going to die? And if my memory is right the Manbari was coming to kill the humans still alive. That is like would be like in WWII showing up after you sink the enemy ship and killing everyone in life boats(sounds evil to me)

the reference is p100-101 of the Centauri republic Source book - in that book the Minbari wiped out every single member of the race and rendered their home planet "devoid of life" - the Centauri watched the first battle and grave robeed the destroyed empire. is it canon - don't know, its sort of MGP Cannon as its in their book - but they do somethimes re-write / ignore previously written stuff. It s how I see the Minbari acting though..............

 

[Natxomann]

The Garmak appeared originally as part of the old Agents of Gaming fluff text for the history of the Minbari federation .

They were rivals to the Centauri in the earlier days of Centauri empire building , and their methods & viewpoints were identical to those of the fanheads .
They also were relative nighbours to the Minbari (who were in reclusive mode by them) , and decided that "the time of Minbari people had passed" , and that they were weak and ripe for conquest , so they attacked a few border worlds of the federation , massacring the local populations of what were essentially border outposts and/or religious retirements , after which the Minbari "showed them the magnitude of their errors" wiping out the Garmak Military , and leaving the Garmak empire too weakened to oppose conquest by the centauri .

The Mongoose crew decided to use the Garmak fluff from AoG , but unfortunately , they decided that the Minbos were genocidal psychos when going to war :roll: ... one of the mistakes of an otherswise good book .

 

[Da Boss]

The Mongoose crew decided to use the Garmak fluff from AoG , but unfortunately , they decided that the Minbos were genocidal psychos when going to war :roll: ... one of the mistakes of an otherswise good book .

Is there anything to say they are not?

I have not got the Minbari source book - does it describe the same incident and also does it talk much about their medthodology in war?

 

[Warhawk]

I have not got the Minbari source book - does it describe the same incident and also does it talk much about their medthodology in war?

I have the first edition Minbari fact book and unless I missed it they don't talk about them at all. It does talk about how the Minbari had 3 great wars 2 of them almost wiped out all the minbari on the planet.

 

[Natxomann]

Argh , the entire Minbari history section of the fact book should be erased from all our civilization records , since is the most silly and horrid thing the Mongoose folks have done to the entire B5 'verse . :x

And before the Mongoose folks get riled with me , that is a constructive criticism , since the rest of the book was really good . :wink:

 

[elizzar]

hi all, in response to this subject, and the one questioning delenn as a war cirminal, aren't we all trying to interpret the actions of minbari through the eyes of humans? unless you subscribe to the almost trek-like view of all aliens being simply funny looking humans it doesn't work. delenn cannot be guilty of war crimes because there is no galactic agreement on such things - this is what makes the babylon 5 advisory council and subsequently the interstellar alliance so revolutionary - no one has considered such forums before between species.
the earth-minbari was caused by pride - on both sides. this is the tragedy of it, especially when one learns of the need for the humans and minbari to unit against the shadows. the minbari warrior caste have their ship gun ports open and use powerful scanning arrays, but the human captain is twitchy and not cleared for first encounter missions. having read into the cuban missile crisis a bit recently and seeing how close humans came to wiping themselves out through miscommunication, well god only knows what a human - alien meeting would really be like ...
also, from 'in the beginning' it seems up to the death of the minbari leader of the rangers (whose name escapes me) [and killed by the centauri remember ...] that the earth-minbari war was limited, in the sense the minbari devastated the outer colonies but left earth and its solar system alone. also not all humans were or are part of the earth alliance. it seems more to me that it the aims of the minbari were to crush the human earth alliance and prevent it ever being a threat again to them, which would include the occupation of earth. but this is simply my human interpretation. perhaps the minbari merely wanted to carve a giant 3 across africa or something, who knows ... :?

 

[Natxomann]

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: perspective

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hi all, in response to this subject, and the one questioning delenn as a war cirminal, aren't we all trying to interpret the actions of minbari through the eyes of humans?

That's the same point I made in the other thread . The Minbari are aliens , not humans , and their psycology and morals should be a little(at least) different to those of humans .

delenn cannot be guilty of war crimes because there is no galactic agreement on such things - this is what makes the babylon 5 advisory council and subsequently the interstellar alliance so revolutionary - no one has considered such forums before between species.

Sorry , but you are wrong here . Ja'Dur was a convicted (in absentia) war criminal , condemned to death for "crimes against the sentience" .
Delenn could not be even judged becuse the Minbari didn't actually commited genocide (no matter what the humans , othes species , or the Minbari themselves believed it would happen after the Minbari reached Earth ) , since Earth or the EA colonies weren't destroyed .
The only thing that can be considered as war crimes (by the human's laws) , is the fact that the warrior caste didn't take military prisoners , but that can be also the way they wage war , or the fact that they were so consumed by hate and revenge (not only about Dukhat , but also of Minbari POWs tortured & murdered by their human enemies) , that they decided not to take prisioners during the war .

the earth-minbari was caused by pride - on both sides. this is the tragedy of it, especially when one learns of the need for the humans and minbari to unit against the shadows. the minbari warrior caste have their ship gun ports open and use powerful scanning arrays, but the human captain is twitchy and not cleared for first encounter missions. having read into the cuban missile crisis a bit recently and seeing how close humans came to wiping themselves out through miscommunication, well god only knows what a human - alien meeting would really be like ...

As I said before , both sides screwed up the first contact , being Dukhat the only that realized (unfortunatelly too late) the dangers created by his warriors "gesture of respect" , while Earthforce command decided to send a trigger-happy officer that was ill-suited as a first contact mission commander... as Sheridan pointed out to Gen. Lefcourt .

also, from 'in the beginning' it seems up to the death of the minbari leader of the rangers (whose name escapes me) [and killed by the centauri remember ...]

Yeah , but remember that NO-One knew about the Centauri involvemente... except the Centauri .
Everyone assumed that some "rogue" elements of one of both sides , that opposed the peace talks , have been responsible for the attack .

the earth-minbari war was limited, in the sense the minbari devastated the outer colonies but left earth and its solar system alone.

Wrong again . The Minbari advanced trough the EA defences for 3 years , until they arrived to the Sol system .
And all human colonies are part of the Earth Alliance , at least during the show's era . And apparently , the only damage caused to the colonies and their populations by the Minbari was related to the actual combat operations , since most colonists survived the war , being under Minbari ocupation (or blockade) after the military garrisons were destroyed .

it seems more to me that it the aims of the minbari were to crush the human earth alliance and prevent it ever being a threat again to them, which would include the occupation of earth. but this is simply my human interpretation. perhaps the minbari merely wanted to carve a giant 3 across africa or something, who knows ...

Sorry again , but the Minbari were clearly fighting to exterminate the human race (both Delenn and the rest of the council admited it , and , towards the end , they all wanted to avoid that , but they found themselves at a loss of how to stop the war) , and until they destroyed the human "warrior caste" and the human capability to wage war (their economical and industrial base) , they wouldn't stop at all ... even if they destroyed the entire poplation of Earth during the process .
At least , the best the humans could hope , was that after the Minbari destroyed Earth and the last remanents of Earthforce , they would "awaken of their madness" (that is , satiate their bloodlust with the death of the vast majority of the human race) , respecting the lives of the survivors of the species , scattered among the colonies and the space of other , neutral governments .

 

[The Greek]

This is not a bad thread, really. My own take:

The Minbari were certainly Genocidal in their actions. in that regard they are as bad as (or arguably worse than) the Shadows (who were just trying to help evolution along and hence improve the universe), perhaps, but not as awful as the Dilgar, who, as has been pointed out, a cruel and unpleasant race. So the reply to the question is no, they are not as bad as the Dilgar.

However they are pretty awful, vengeful, self-righteous, and evil in their persuit of human eradication. The fact they did not finish the job or left behind colonies for later mop-up is neither here or there, their actions were criminal (and probably the Shadows would have been applauding them!)

There is no doubt in my mind that the Minbari were out to 'kill them all', this was explicit in the movie.

However the whole 'uncover the gunports as a sign of respect' thing just came across as laughable. I wish another flashpoint had started the whole mess, I mean the Minbari, whilst alien, would have to be unbelievably dumb to think that that sort of thing was a clever thing to do. (It is one of my pet hates from the show, which, overall, I liked). Uncovering gunports (ie: seem like they are getting ready to fire) is not a smart thing to do, and it is highly unlikely that that sort of action would not have created another such 'ambush' in the past when they encountered some other race.

As for previous Minbari bad behaviour. It is implied by Mollari that this is something that might be expected from them on past experience. But I can give them a pass if they had wiped out races before since it might have occured in the earlier Shadow War, which was a real fight to the bitter end for them and a close run thing.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Natxomann]

The Minbari were certainly Genocidal in their actions. in that regard they are as bad as (or arguably worse than) the Shadows (who were just trying to help evolution along and hence improve the universe), perhaps, but not as awful as the Dilgar, who, as has been pointed out, a cruel and unpleasant race. So the reply to the question is no, they are not as bad as the Dilgar.

If observed closely , the Minbari aren't exactly the nicest people of the B5 universe .
They are rigidly (and unfairly) stratified socially , they are xenophobic and chauvinistic , and certainly they gave free rein to their darkest passions during the war against the Humans and their civil war .

But you must see that unlike the Dilgar , the Minbari never tried to carve an empire at the expense of other races , conquering , slaving & slaughtering them in the process , nor they decided that they had the rigth to began wars against other , weaker races , that could ( and would) be exterminated , and beliving that they were above retribution from their victims... as the Shadows did .

However they are pretty awful, vengeful, self-righteous, and evil in their persuit of human eradication. The fact they did not finish the job or left behind colonies for later mop-up is neither here or there, their actions were criminal (and probably the Shadows would have been applauding them!)

No one said anything different , but you are judging them by human standards , laws & customs ... and the Minbari are Aliens

However the whole 'uncover the gunports as a sign of respect' thing just came across as laughable. I wish another flashpoint had started the whole mess, I mean the Minbari, whilst alien, would have to be unbelievably dumb to think that that sort of thing was a clever thing to do. (It is one of my pet hates from the show, which, overall, I liked). Uncovering gunports (ie: seem like they are getting ready to fire) is not a smart thing to do, and it is highly unlikely that that sort of action would not have created another such 'ambush' in the past when they encountered some other race.

You are missing two very important points here .

- First: The Minbari have been isolated for almost a thousand years , and the experience in alien relations of the warriors that decided to approach the human warships was literally Nil , so they acted as they would if they were greeting Minbari warships .

- Second: The Minbari are alien (again) . On top of that , their lifestile is very formal & ritualized , so if they want to atack a ship , I suspect that they would openly announce their intentions , so being fired at without announcement was considered as a dishonorable , uncivilized , and utterly compemptible treason that demanded bloody retribution .

(In fact this is a point that I think explains why the Minbari warriors had a hard time fighting against Earthforce . I think that after a thousand years of peace , and given the highly ritualiced lifestile of the Minbari people , the warriors grew accostumed to expect a "ritualiced" stile of warfare , and they were totally unprepared to face an enemy that fought in just the opposite fashion , in a very dinamic way)

- Third: The Minbari went mad with grief ater the humans killed the most beloved & revered leader since the time of Valen (remember , the Soul Hunters defined him as "the pinnacle of Minbari evolution") , and they are a little "special" where their leaders are concerned .

- Fourth: The humans , which faced extinction , succumbed also to their worst instincts due to their desperation , so they weren't exactly models of behaviour against the Minbari POWs , torturing & murdering them... fuelling the Minbari madness/hate against humanity .

- Fifth: I shall go to bed now

 

[cthol24601]

"But you must see that unlike the Dilgar , the Minbari never tried to carve an empire at the expense of other races , conquering , slaving & slaughtering them in the process , nor they decided that they had the rigth to began wars against other , weaker races , that could ( and would) be exterminated , and beliving that they were above retribution from their victims... as the Shadows did . "

Well to be honest neither did the Dilgar until they discovered the Sun was about to go Nova and desperately needed to conquer territory and claim new homelands. Indeed I don't see they act much differently to how any other B5 race would under the circumstance. Indeed humans have acted much the same with far less provocation and panic. The Minbari acted similiarly through the series but were softened by communicating to other races via the religious caste that tended to soften and conceal (and who were often embarassed by) the ruthless and xenophobic aspects of their culture. Indeed it seemed like Jha Dur (by all accounts the worst of the Dilgar) and the Minbari warrior caste got along just fine much to the embarrassment and chagrin of the religious caste.

On another note, it strikes me however that one of the great strengths of B5 over a lot of other similar sci fi shows is that a beings race is not as determinist as it is on Star Trek. Each of the races runs the gammut from despicable to the noble and compassionate, strong and weak etc and the characters have very individual journeys to travel which occur within the context of their race and heritage but are not defined by them. Delenn, Londo, Vir, G'Kar, Garibaldi etc all go through this.

On this line I would wonder if it is worth discussing this in terms of race but instead should look at it in terms of governments and rules etc. In the EA Minbari war the problem is not so much going to war but the way in which the Warrior caste went about the conduct of the war once unleashed from religious restrictions. Similarly for the Dilgar going out and conquering a world as a new homeland, even being ruthless about it, is quite understandable but their conduct was beyond the pale (even if driven by panic and isolationist xenophobia). Our history is full of wars of conquest fought for loss of homeland through famine or catastrophe (Ancient Israelites come to mind here) the Dilgar acted in much the same way.

This conduct however is quite a different matter to the ethics and values of any individual Dilgar or Minbari you might happen to meet. Indeed humans have routinely acted as bad as the Dilgar and Minbari do on the show (historically speaking) but we do not feel the need to be prescriptive of human characteristics based on the actions of governments as we are of the Minbari and Dilgar.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Timestheus]

"But you must see that unlike the Dilgar , the Minbari never tried to carve an empire at the expense of other races , conquering , slaving & slaughtering them in the process , nor they decided that they had the rigth to began wars against other , weaker races , that could ( and would) be exterminated , and beliving that they were above retribution from their victims... as the Shadows did . "

Well to be honest neither did the Dilgar until they discovered the Sun was about to go Nova and desperately needed to conquer territory and claim new homelands. Indeed I don't see they act much differently to how any other B5 race would under the circumstance. Indeed humans have acted much the same with far less provocation and panic. The Minbari acted similiarly through the series but were softened by communicating to other races via the religious caste that tended to soften and conceal (and who were often embarassed by) the ruthless and xenophobic aspects of their culture. Indeed it seemed like Jha Dur (by all accounts the worst of the Dilgar) and the Minbari warrior caste got along just fine much to the embarrassment and chagrin of the religious caste.

On another note, it strikes me however that one of the great strengths of B5 over a lot of other similar sci fi shows is that a beings race is not as determinist as it is on Star Trek. Each of the races runs the gammut from despicable to the noble and compassionate, strong and weak etc and the characters have very individual journeys to travel which occur within the context of their race and heritage but are not defined by them. Delenn, Londo, Vir, G'Kar, Garibaldi etc all go through this.

On this line I would wonder if it is worth discussing this in terms of race but instead should look at it in terms of governments and rules etc. In the EA Minbari war the problem is not so much going to war but the way in which the Warrior caste went about the conduct of the war once unleashed from religious restrictions. Similarly for the Dilgar going out and conquering a world as a new homeland, even being ruthless about it, is quite understandable but their conduct was beyond the pale (even if driven by panic and isolationist xenophobia). Our history is full of wars of conquest fought for loss of homeland through famine or catastrophe (Ancient Israelites come to mind here) the Dilgar acted in much the same way.

This conduct however is quite a different matter to the ethics and values of any individual Dilgar or Minbari you might happen to meet. Indeed humans have routinely acted as bad as the Dilgar and Minbari do on the show (historically speaking) but we do not feel the need to be prescriptive of human characteristics based on the actions of governments as we are of the Minbari and Dilgar.

Just my 2 cents worth.

As a minor side point the Warrior Caste at least had no problem employing a Dilgar butcher on a scientist supplying them with weapons. We do not know what the Religious or Worker Caste thought of this though the WArriors probably made sure they didnt know so they couldnt complain even if they wanted to.

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

The Windswords employed Deathwalker. We are told they are a very radical and scary sect within the warrior caste...like any group of people, the Minbari (and Warrior Caste) have their stable and their unstable members.

 

[Timestheus]

The Windswords employed Deathwalker. We are told they are a very radical and scary sect within the warrior caste...like any group of people, the Minbari (and Warrior Caste) have their stable and their unstable members.

Which is why I said minor point. I remembered something about it being just some of the Warriors.

AT the same time though it makes you wonder. The rest of the Warrior Caste never wondered where the Windswords were getting all this new technology?

Me thinks a wink, nudge, and blind eye were turned by the other members of the Warrior Caste who didnt want to ask questions they didnt absolutely have to ask.

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

No, it's in the same episode. The Council looked into it, but only after the war. They covered it up out of shame, when they figured it out. During the war they were too busy and just told them to take their wmd's and get lost. (Also bear in mind that to the Minbari, saving face for another is a very good thing to do, so covering for the Windswords would have been a honorable act in their eyes)

 

[Timestheus]

No, it's in the same episode. The Council looked into it, but only after the war. They covered it up out of shame, when they figured it out. During the war they were too busy and just told them to take their wmd's and get lost. (Also bear in mind that to the Minbari, saving face for another is a very good thing to do, so covering for the Windswords would have been a honorable act in their eyes)

LOL, so we have an entire society that has convinced itself that being corrupt is honorable.

 

[B_Steele]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, proves the sanctity and perfection of the Hexad Hive of the Gaim. Without such silliness as expansionism and religion to mire them with emotions, they are utterly flawless.

Just ask them.

8)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

-Bry

 

[Natxomann]

LOL, so we have an entire society that has convinced itself that being corrupt is honorable.

No . What you have is an estire culture that is convinced that to protect other's honour is honorable , not their corruption .

It is imperfect , but that is what all the B5 universe cultures are...

 

[cthol24601]

Still I guess it comes down to the point Jha'dur makes about the way in which the Minbari, centauri, Earthers, league worlds etc get extraordinarily sanctimonious in their moral superiority when all o them are likely to act in a similiar fashipon to the Dilgar under a lot less provocation.

Still the problem is that unlike the Minbari, Centauri, Narn and Earthers who show both compassion and equivalent levels of atrocity to the Dilgar we never see any other Dilgar besides a psychotic mass murdering dictator so we never see the full spectrum of people and morality as we do most of the other races. The windswords, and sizeable portions of the warrior caste are in ideological sympathies with the Dilgar as are parts of the Centauri and certainly psi corp but their stranglehold on power etc is seen as an aberration not as representative of the race. We never get that luxury with the Dilgar and just see them through a "Joseph Mengele" equivalent and the experience of holocaust survivors. We never (to follow the Nazi parallel) see their Rommel or Jorgan Elser equivalents or deal with post war reconstruction etc as we do with other races.

 

[Da Boss]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, proves the sanctity and perfection of the Hexad Hive of the Gaim. Without such silliness as expansionism and religion to mire them with emotions, they are utterly flawless.

Just ask them.

8)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

-Bry

Funny thats just the sort of thing my current Gaim character would say - for we shall inherit the galaxy