Anti initiative sink house rule

[Right Hand of God]

is initiative sinking such a problem? Don't bite my head off I am asking the question in all honesty. Is it any cheesier than jump point bombs? It seems an inherrent part of the system, you choose the fleet you field, if you decide to use cheap low level ships you pay the price in a lack of survivability and in a poor weapons yield. If you go top heavy you max out on fire power but lack the flexibility to adapt and react. both ends of the spectrum carry penalties but whilst it is a free fleet choice with no min/max options then any fleet composistion is a valid one and you are free to use it to gain the maximum from that fleet. I don't see it as cheesiness or unsportsmanlike it's just a game mechanic that is open to you. Without restricting fleet choices then these things will always be there. I can see why boresight fleets suffer against this, especially those that hide out behind terrain doing nothing, but if your oponent is going to waste ships in a non-offensive capacity, more fool him, it gives him less to shoot you with, just choose your targets you can and pick on them till the numbers are level.

 

[Davesaint]

is initiative sinking such a problem? Don't bite my head off I am asking the question in all honesty. Is it any cheesier than jump point bombs? It seems an inherrent part of the system, you choose the fleet you field, if you decide to use cheap low level ships you pay the price in a lack of survivability and in a poor weapons yield. If you go top heavy you max out on fire power but lack the flexibility to adapt and react. both ends of the spectrum carry penalties but whilst it is a free fleet choice with no min/max options then any fleet composistion is a valid one and you are free to use it to gain the maximum from that fleet. I don't see it as cheesiness or unsportsmanlike it's just a game mechanic that is open to you. Without restricting fleet choices then these things will always be there. I can see why boresight fleets suffer against this, especially those that hide out behind terrain doing nothing, but if your oponent is going to waste ships in a non-offensive capacity, more fool him, it gives him less to shoot you with, just choose your targets you can and pick on them till the numbers are level.

Amen Brother!

 

[Da Boss]

Well, I think we're all agreeing the system is fine as it is, it's more "what are ways to combat people who abuse the system" ..

j.,

Hmm difficult - always someone who is going to try and abuse any system...............still its always nice to hear new ideas despite any perceived inability that I may have to formulate tactics

have fun

 

[Ripple]

I normally would agree with Dave above (and RHoG's original comment) but its not quite that simple. The I-sink issue is only a problem when folks can consistently put ships beyond you ability to affect. Thus you rarely if ever have the ability to whittle down the numbers sufficiently to allow you larger bore sighted weapons to bear.

ie if I can spend a few patrol points to negate the main weapon on a couple of your battle choices I have not lost in the firepower trade, even though I have 'wasted' several slots on non-combatents. Especially if said ships can also affect the battle from their hidden areas in the way that scouts and some carriers can. Swarm fleets such as Triggy's infamous Abbai fleet can also maintain firepower (or actually gain it) by going down and still deny you shots at the majority of swarms concentrated dice.

It is a free choice system, but at least under Arm., the numbers of small ships you could get was ridicules. Dave has a fleet that has yet to be defeated by any boresighted opponent simply due to the number of sinks. If there is no counter choice, then the system has failed and needs to be looked at. If there is no counter choice for one (or one type of) faction, then you need to look at what defines the ships/factions involved and see if that is the base of the issue.

Second ed has addressed the swarm issue to a degree in both buy power of buying down and rebalancing the most over the top low end ships. There are still some concerns locally, but we'll see how it pans out.

The random chit activation does have some cool effects btw, but 'stacking' the chip pile with lots of extra stuff can have the same effect as sinking in some ways.

Ripple

 

[Right Hand of God]

If your oponent is hiding behind terrain then save a ship or two and jump in behind him. Even with just a jump point instead of an AJP you will make your oponent react and move those ships that are hiding. Alternatively head accross the board for them en mass and watch them flee

 

[CZuschlag]

Not so easy. Many scenarios don't allow you to hold ships in Hyperspace, and driving at high speed past an enemy fleet to get at the initiative sinks is often a bad idea against some races with all-round firepower and/or great mobility (new Vree who are now probably masters of the initiative sink, ISA with Bluestar sinks, the Drakh horde of Light Raiders -- now, it's a solid ship -- and the Mass o' Havens).

Now, some factions do have KILLER ways to deal with this kind of fleet now; the weenie-swarm is just asking for doom against the Gaim, new Narn E-mines, and the new (and absolutely vile) Pak'ma'ra Plasma Net. Of course, on the other end, beam-fleets have huge problems, as they can't kill Hull 4 stuff nearly as easily as they used to, and it's often very hard to split a beam --- ask your local Shadow player about trying to hit multiple Hermes with Molecular slicers!