Anti initiative sink house rule

Nightmares about Minbari said:
To Davesaint:
Init sinking is just totally beardy in that it is using the technical rules to create situations on the table top that simply couldn't happen in the real world for gamesmanship advantage.

If you can't recognise EXCESSIVE use of init sinks as beardy, then, well, there's nothing I can say that wouldn't be offensive so I'll stop now.

Got a silly idea to prevent init sinking.

Any ship that hasn't played a constructive part in the battle in three turns is automatically considered destroyed, giving the enemy double standard victory points.

PS it's been one of those weeks!

who says my small ships aren't playing a constructive part of a battle. The Hermes(IMHO the most busted Partol ship in 1ed) was used to bombard my opponents fleet from range. The bluestar is used for eliminating crippled ships and screening the fleet from other fast maneuverable ships that my opponent fields.

With the Brakiri, I tend to run a lot of Brikortas. They are skirmish level hulls. Does this mean that the fleet is beardy?

If I run the Drazi and don't take warbirds and sunhawks I lose, period. The reliance on boresight weapons to too great for them to take few numbers of large ships.

The Hyperion and the Omega are worthless if you do not have initiatve sinks so that the boresight beam can get on target.

The problem is the quality of the ships that people can use as initiave sinks, not the sinks themselves. If all patrol level ships were as combat capable as a Haven, we would not be having this discussion because no one would take them.

Of course in 2nd edition, the Haven is a really good buy.


The tradition in all Navy's is the small ship to go into harms way. Why would a future navy not use that concept? Corvettes and Frigates are cheaper to build and mantian the the large battle level hulls. They are your pickett ships.


Dave
 
The point I was trying to make here, is not whether small ships play a constructive part in a game, and that not every race has access to them, no I'm sorry thats not what I'm eluding to at all.

I use small ships all the time, but they play a constructive part in my battle plan, which DOES NOT including laying about behind scenery or hanging at the back of the table JUST so that I can move them minimum distance OR not at all with ALL STOP. NOW THAT IS NOT USING SMALL SHIPS CONSTRUCTIVELY, THAT IS INITIATIVE SINKING, AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS THAT IS DAMN RIGHT BEARDY AND MANIPULATING THE RULES.

Power-gaming, which is what the above is, makes a good game rubbish in my opinion. It becomes fun for the one person who spent and entire night of his sad little life, dreaming up, what is a broken list and then proceeds to wipe the floor with his opponent in a completely unsporting manner.
For those people who like that kind of game, good for you, but I'm glad I don't know anyone like that or play against any. The people that I play ACTA with are fair, decent and sporting people, who play in the spirit of the game and we all enjoy ourselves. Manipulating rules to the extent where you have dozens of small ships to Initiative sink, and bring one or two HEAVY ships in, or bringing about hyperspace bombs while I'm thinking about it, is wrong and rules should be brought in by the Powers that Be at MGP to stop that.

The whole reason I started playing ACTA in the first place was because it was a fun game, that nobody from the lesser plane of powergaming, seemed to have corrupted yet. It was a change from the numerous GW games and other assorted games that were all about powergaming. Sadly the renaissance peroid for ACTA seemed to have vanished, and it has jaded me, I only hope that some of this dross has been attended to in 2e.

Oh and to liken the playing of a wargame with model ships, to REAL naval combat is a little bit silly, because lets be honest it's nothing like current modern era naval combat. The arguement that modern navies don't bomb around with lots of bigs ships, but lots of small ones, is largely due to government defense budgets and the inherant costs of building massive warships, thus limiting what can actually be achieved to small "tactical" warships in larger numbers. I'd just like to point out though, if you are going to make that link, that you don't see navies using an I go - You go system of warfare, and neither do you see Navy frigates and destroyers moving about 25m and stopping to confuse the enemy so the bigger cruisers can get more shots in.

For those people that like to use lots of smaller patrol level ships, with a couple of heavy weights, to make good use of int. sinking, and then claim that you are doing it because its a tactical way of gaming similar to modern warfare . . . and the "oh my poor narn and drazi fleets can't win a game without int. sinking . . sniff sniff" I say this:
You don't fool anyone with half a brain cell with that sob story, you are beardy, and why don't you try playing tactically and try getting the most out of your fleet whilst playing in the spirit of the game. You never know, you might actually enjoy the challenge, suffer the occasional loss, and feel so much better when you start beating people with a fleet that you've actually worked hard to make good.

Alternatively get a centauri fleet! :D

Apologies, rant over, and though that might have come across as harsh, I didn't set-out to offend anyone. Honest.
 
if you are not making use of ur patrol ships by all stopping them out of sight then you are losing firepower you have paid for. ok they init sink but so what. its useful against a few fleets but most will just tear your main fleet apart then come after your patrol ships hiding behind that asteroid field.

I have used a 5 ship hyperion fleet and it did very well TBH. ok it was against abbai the league so we were likely to win init but not everyturn. sometimes you just have to shoot whats available.
 
Centauri_Admiral said:
and the "oh my poor narn and drazi fleets can't win a game without int. sinking . . sniff sniff" I say this:
You don't fool anyone with half a brain cell with that sob story, you are beardy, and why don't you try playing tactically and try getting the most out of your fleet whilst playing in the spirit of the game.
Have you ever tried using a Drazi fleet? It's tough being boresight-only. It means you can only aim at enemy ships which have already moved. For every init sink your opponent has, you lose firepower.

Agree with your 2nd paragraph though.
 
Hear, hear, Centauri_Admiral. Init sinking is manipulation of the game system to achieve a result that couldn't be achieved otherwise. It makes tactical sense to move less valuable ships first and save bigger ones for later in the turn, but when you're taking silly numbers of patrol or skirmish units for the express purpose of init sinking, you're taking things too far.

I'd be quite happy to see boresights vanish, and get replaced by some other means of representing limited-traverse weapons. The left/front and right/front arc weapons in BFG would work for the Omega and G'Quan, and ships like the White Star and Drazi vessels are agile enough to abstract out weapon aim limitations...
 
Burger said:
Centauri_Admiral said:
and the "oh my poor narn and drazi fleets can't win a game without int. sinking . . sniff sniff" I say this:
You don't fool anyone with half a brain cell with that sob story, you are beardy, and why don't you try playing tactically and try getting the most out of your fleet whilst playing in the spirit of the game.
Have you ever tried using a Drazi fleet? It's tough being boresight-only. It means you can only aim at enemy ships which have already moved. For every init sink your opponent has, you lose firepower.

Agree with your 2nd paragraph though.

I do understand what you mean here [post rant calming peroid has now allowed more oxygen to my brain] but I have seen drazi used reasonably well, but against an opponent that wasn't trying to beat the drazi into the ground. What I'm saying is, is that his opponent wasn't being beardy and didn't have a beardy fleet roster. It was a game between two guys that were playing with sportsmanship first, the spirit of the game second, and actually winning it third. Thats how I play; and its from that kind of understanding that I formulate my opinion.

I personally wouldn't attempt to out int. sink a drazi player just to be a git; I would try and beat him in another way using my fleets strength whilst trying to keep the game fun for both of us.

I think here we three different types of people posting on this board:
1. Those anti-initiative sinking because they think its being a beardus maximus when it is taken to the extreme.
2. Those who agree with using int.sinking to a [certain extent] especially for fleets like the drazi [okay I conceed its hard to even use the fleet tactically without making some use of int.sinking]
3. Those that make unreasonable use of int.sinking in fleets that have no logical or tactical reason for needing to do so. I.e Beardus Maximus.

Anyway, anyone making excessive use of int.sinking OR hyperspace bombing for that matter, in my presence will need some kevlar bodyarmour. :twisted:
 
katadder said:
anyone can use smaller ships, they are generally just less powerful though so you may start with smaller ships and init advantage but you will lose ships quicker too.

Not all fleets have them - Shadows? :)
 
Centauri_Admiral said:
Burger said:
Centauri_Admiral said:
and the "oh my poor narn and drazi fleets can't win a game without int. sinking . . sniff sniff" I say this:
You don't fool anyone with half a brain cell with that sob story, you are beardy, and why don't you try playing tactically and try getting the most out of your fleet whilst playing in the spirit of the game.
Have you ever tried using a Drazi fleet? It's tough being boresight-only. It means you can only aim at enemy ships which have already moved. For every init sink your opponent has, you lose firepower.

Agree with your 2nd paragraph though.

I do understand what you mean here [post rant calming peroid has now allowed more oxygen to my brain] but I have seen drazi used reasonably well, but against an opponent that wasn't trying to beat the drazi into the ground. What I'm saying is, is that his opponent wasn't being beardy and didn't have a beardy fleet roster. It was a game between two guys that were playing with sportsmanship first, the spirit of the game second, and actually winning it third. Thats how I play; and its from that kind of understanding that I formulate my opinion.

I personally wouldn't attempt to out int. sink a drazi player just to be a git; I would try and beat him in another way using my fleets strength whilst trying to keep the game fun for both of us.

I think here we three different types of people posting on this board:
1. Those anti-initiative sinking because they think its being a beardus maximus when it is taken to the extreme.
2. Those who agree with using int.sinking to a [certain extent] especially for fleets like the drazi [okay I conceed its hard to even use the fleet tactically without making some use of int.sinking]
3. Those that make unreasonable use of int.sinking in fleets that have no logical or tactical reason for needing to do so. I.e Beardus Maximus.

Anyway, anyone making excessive use of int.sinking OR hyperspace bombing for that matter, in my presence will need some kevlar bodyarmour. :twisted:

I'll remember the term Beardus Maximus next time I run into the Tertius/Prefect/Prefect/3 Corvans fleet in the next 1st ed. tournament I play in.

If you want you can find Beardy fleet compositions in any races fleets. How many people felt triggys 5 Milani and 10 Tiraca fleet beardy? Was it beardy because he had initiative sinks? No, he chose it because it maximized the firepower in the fleet.

Again, the problem with initiative sinks is really 2 fold.

1st - is how the PL breakdowns work. When you gain more firepower from choosing smaller ships than the one above it or at the PL level of the fight it encourages it.

2nd - The quality of the patrol and skirmish level ships available to certian races that are not available to others. How many people find issue with the Hermes, Sagitarious, Maximus, Ka'tan, but don't concern themselves with the Torotha, Sunhawk, Zorr, and others? This is a balance issue not a tactics issue.

So, if you didn't have such a beneficial breakdown of the PL's and the ships weren't as good as the Higher PL level ships on a point for point basis, this wouldn't be an issue.


Dave
 
Whoops, got a live one here!

For the record I've got nothing against a spread of ships in a fleet, and obviously it is tactically sound to move the smaller stuff first. For example a war priority minbari fleet will probably have a pair of Leshath scouts, lurking on the fringes of the battle and moving early in the turn. However they will still be contributing with scout abilities and may well turn in to engage if opportunity permits.

However there is a line which once crossed changes the nature of the game, removing the 'fun' along the way. I've wargamed in every environment from the uber-competative to the out-and-out silly and I'm personally much happier in the middle ground.

The original house rule was just an attempt to keep things managable, and I'm open to any alternatives that other people have come up with?
 
I am with you Minbari hater.

I have been silently watching this post.

I actually agree with you. I sinks just don;t "feel" right to me for soem unknown rereason.

Yet as a Drazi AND Narn lover, I am reluctent to do anythign about it in my game group.

Me and a buddy had a Narn vs Drazi support raider champaign going, and it degenerated into I sink nighmarish boordoom for us both. (We are not chessy gits, its just that one guy wins and it appears that the I sink made a difference, so next game losser player drops a raid vessel for a binch of patrols, and finds HE know has the edge, etc etc etc, till we have 15 ships per side in raid battles!)

I feel the solution is to have a movement phase I based for each class of ship.

For Example

Roll for I then move/fire War vessels
Roll for I then move/fire Battle vessels

etc etc..

I already think soem woudl say this woudl slow thegames down. I don;t think by a lot. I don't know if I have the order right, perhaps big ships should move last.

I have not play tested this yet so its a ot of theory right now.
 
I don't think there is much wrong with the rules for initiative and movement per say. I don't have a problem with them in my games. The problem here is the beardus maximus level of player.

Through watching, and contributing, to the mass rantings of this thread [and I'm sure there have been, and will be, many of this ilk] I've decided to put into the operation the following counter-measure to beardy gits making over judicious use of int. sinking and thus turning the game sour.

I'm going to pack up my figures, call the game in the opponents favour, and then proceed to tell him/her what a complete socially inept reprobate that person really is. That I'd rather pull out my own finger nails than play him/her ever again, that it is completely "not fun" to play that person, and that they need to go out; and get themselves a life.

The rest of us normal wargamers in the meantime can have some fun without those representing the beardus beardus clan. YAY!!!!! :D :D :D :D
 
I don't make much use of squadrons, because the initiative disadvantage is generally worse than the firing first advantage. Depends on the opponent's fleet though, sometimes I do use them.
 
The other purpose of the house rule that started all this was to encourage the use of squadrons, to see how they would work.

Even in a heavy init sink'd game squadrons can be useful, by the way. as you can have your two or three biggest ships squadroned together so they move as the last thing you move, which might be after everything else. a pair of Sharlin or Sharkaan in a squadron make a big impression.
 
I actually like your original house rule, Nightmares blah blah. Just make sure you add the racial init bonus and any command bonus present in the fleet, and count fighters seperately.
 
LDTD: Then your the first! Something to have around as an option for you then, hope it provides at least one fun evening.

Command bonus was already included. Not so sure about the racial bonus, as the races with the highest boneses generally use bigger ships (thinking Minbari, Vorlon and shadow here)

And I've thought of an alternative. Small ships in a big battle are unlikely to be operating alone, they are more likely to operate in squadrons where they can do something. So you COULD say that any ships two or more priorities below the battle are too small to operate independantly in a fleet engagement and have to operate as part of a squadron. How you'd define how many to put into a squadron is up to you, but perhaps say that each squadron has to equal a ship one priority level below the battle.

Just an off the cuff suggestion.
 
Nightmares about Minbari said:
Just out of curiosity, how much use do people make of squadrons in their games?

It depends on what I am fighting against. If my opponent was using a small number of high PL ships, I would likely use squadrons due to the firepower advantage.

Dave
 
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