Anti initiative sink house rule
- Thread starter Nightmares about Minbari
- Start date
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Nightmares about Minbari said:
Not bad. You might allow exceptions, like scouts or escorts. They'd either operate alone or squadron up with ships they're defending. Alternatively, escorts could act alone so you're not shackled by the anti-init sink nature of the rule. You might want to move your Maximus ahead of your Primus to move it into position to intercept a fighter attack, which you couldn't do if it was squadroned with the Primus, for example.
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Escorts (e2) would be best used as part of a squadron of larger ships, the squadron rules will keep them in range to use their abilities.
Scouts might be worth making an exception for as they have to go off on their own, and scouts generally do things even if used as I-sinks.
Alternatively, you could use this as a guide for telling if your opponant is planning to make serious use of his lighter shiips or just use them as I-sinks. if he doesn't squadron up small units, then he's just an I-s(t)inker, if he squadrons them then he's actually intending to do something useful with them.
Scouts might be worth making an exception for as they have to go off on their own, and scouts generally do things even if used as I-sinks.
Alternatively, you could use this as a guide for telling if your opponant is planning to make serious use of his lighter shiips or just use them as I-sinks. if he doesn't squadron up small units, then he's just an I-s(t)inker, if he squadrons them then he's actually intending to do something useful with them.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
This only applies in large games, though, and of course, some lighter units are capable of serious action alone...
Looking at you, Vorchan... :wink:
Looking at you, Vorchan... :wink:
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Vorchan's may be good, but in a 10 point war priority battle, a lone Vorchan is just a light snack!
Trying to think if there are any other classes of light ship that might need to be an exception, nothing coming up yet.
Trying to think if there are any other classes of light ship that might need to be an exception, nothing coming up yet.
All of this talk makes me want to consider trying the "CHIT PULL" system for initiative that has become increasingly popular in wargames (A Victry Lost, Clash of Giants II).. and is a variation on what you find in games like Memoir44/CommandandColors/Battlelore.
Basically you divide the fleets up in to Commands, and have activation chits for each command, you then put these in a cup and pull away. Whenever a command's chit is pulled, those ships can move. Once per turn during any one of your sides activations you can declare fire.
You could easily say that there are X commands per level so both side always have the same number of commands regardless of number of ships... hrmm.. that might work.
Basically you divide the fleets up in to Commands, and have activation chits for each command, you then put these in a cup and pull away. Whenever a command's chit is pulled, those ships can move. Once per turn during any one of your sides activations you can declare fire.
You could easily say that there are X commands per level so both side always have the same number of commands regardless of number of ships... hrmm.. that might work.
The Hobbybox
Mongoose
The Vorchan isn't a light snack. A single Vorchan or small ship can easily be used as bait to draw an attack in, the 'sacrificial lamb' as it were.
That's basically what init-sinking is all about. It's about presenting a target to your opponent which you don't mind losing.
I have no problem with init-sinking, except in the case of someone going 'All stop' and hiding behind scenery, that's beardy.
Presenting a weak ship as a target is just a tactic.
As for squadrons, I LOVE them!
In actual fact I probably use them too often, just because I like being able to chuck huge numbers of dice out in one go.
That's basically what init-sinking is all about. It's about presenting a target to your opponent which you don't mind losing.
I have no problem with init-sinking, except in the case of someone going 'All stop' and hiding behind scenery, that's beardy.
Presenting a weak ship as a target is just a tactic.
As for squadrons, I LOVE them!
In actual fact I probably use them too often, just because I like being able to chuck huge numbers of dice out in one go.
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Hmmm, Chit Pool, sounds like the worst of all worlds. Makes the whole thing just a random event. No tactical choices, just random chance determining what you can do and when.
Yes because in combat everything always works out exactly like you plan it.. no communication breakdowns.. no sudden judgments.. no commanders going off and doing there own thing.. everything always goes to plan.
Anyway it was just an idea.. one that works quite well in other games.
Anyway it was just an idea.. one that works quite well in other games.
First:
I'm not sure where you got the idea firing wasn't going to occur.
Second: Are you sure you know what tactics means?
I can tell you it absolutely does not take tactics out of the game, this is a technique used in many wargames. It does however require *different* tactics.
But if you're saying you can't formulate maneuvers except using a system like ACTA, then okay I'll believe you.
j.,
I'm not sure where you got the idea firing wasn't going to occur.
Second: Are you sure you know what tactics means?
I can tell you it absolutely does not take tactics out of the game, this is a technique used in many wargames. It does however require *different* tactics.
But if you're saying you can't formulate maneuvers except using a system like ACTA, then okay I'll believe you.
j.,
Right Hand of God
Mongoose
The random chit activation sequence is becomming more and more popular in newly released war games. To say it takes the tactic out of the game is ridiculous. It no more removes tactics than the IGYG system or the initiavtive system in place in ACTA. What it does is present he Admiral with a whole new set of challenges and tactical options. It can make for some nerve racking choices and can swing your style of play from offensive to defensive in one draw. Even if only used for movement with firing taking place the same way it does now it offers a challenge and a change to the current system. It also removes that GODHOOD factor present in so many war games, you as the player know where everything is, you know what is going to move where and when, what it's target will be and you can compensate for any dice rolls that don't go to plan. The chit system, like it or loathe it removes the GOODHOOD factor and requires a little more skill and finess.
Obviously it's not for everybody but give it a go you might like it. 5 points of raid is a little small for this type of activation but 5 points of battle should see it work well, activate by squadron or by ship type. Use a pack of cards and not down what card activates what ships and away you go.
Obviously it's not for everybody but give it a go you might like it. 5 points of raid is a little small for this type of activation but 5 points of battle should see it work well, activate by squadron or by ship type. Use a pack of cards and not down what card activates what ships and away you go.
Random activation completely blows for boresighted ships. Say you've just lined up your Victory to make the killing blow using the Lightning Cannon on an Octurion... and suddenly because of a dice roll, you have to move the Victory before the Octurion has moved. You are unable to fire the LC.
Right Hand of God said:
I have played it and variations on the theme - what I don't like is not being able to plan ahead - it also brings an additional random /luck element in - which you either like or not. It may work with movement but would def not want it for firing...........
I have not, thus far, had a problem with the present ACTA system - it is quick and easy and makes a change form the I go you go system - which I also play.
My statement on firing is that I don't tend to use any ships to hang back and usually have Scouts/Patrol boats whatever to get in the thick of things - last tournament I was at had my surviving Corvan trying to do some damage on a Narn Battlecruiser in the last turn - it died but hey.........
but again the good thing is if people want to play a variant opn the system they can -but I like the present system
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
I personally have under utilized squadrons, my current campaign I'm fielding Drakh and while it has been suggested to use them as a finesse fleet, they do have a potential to be a very aggressive hammer fleet with a squadron of six heavy raiders. (EDIT: I'm not really sure if a squadron of the heavy raiders would prove cheddar, even if they're close in color. The F 12 B,DD,SAP,P certainly pushes it.)
NaM - have you considered switching the squadron limit from being associated with the largest ship to being dependant on the Priority of the engagement or the FAP of the engagement? e.g. Priority-4 engagement would allow two squadrons plus one squadron for each command bonus?
I think the big problem I'm seeing with either the YGIG or RND Chit is that it's a slow representation of fleet movement. B5Wars uses individual ship initiative for movement. There is also some like Full Thrust in which you write out all the movement commands secretly and all are revealed at once so movement is simultaneous. All four are trying to simulate what would be a real time movement and all have their problems and require shifts in how you process your tactics.
NaM - have you considered switching the squadron limit from being associated with the largest ship to being dependant on the Priority of the engagement or the FAP of the engagement? e.g. Priority-4 engagement would allow two squadrons plus one squadron for each command bonus?
I think the big problem I'm seeing with either the YGIG or RND Chit is that it's a slow representation of fleet movement. B5Wars uses individual ship initiative for movement. There is also some like Full Thrust in which you write out all the movement commands secretly and all are revealed at once so movement is simultaneous. All four are trying to simulate what would be a real time movement and all have their problems and require shifts in how you process your tactics.
Da Boss said:Right Hand of God said:
I have played it and variations on the theme - what I don't like is not being able to plan ahead - it also brings an additional random /luck element in - which you either like or not. It may work with movement but would def not want it for firing...........
I have not, thus far, had a problem with the present ACTA system - it is quick and easy and makes a change form the I go you go system - which I also play.
My statement on firing is that I don't tend to use any ships to hang back and usually have Scouts/Patrol boats whatever to get in the thick of things - last tournament I was at had my surviving Corvan trying to do some damage on a Narn Battlecruiser in the last turn - it died but hey.........
but again the good thing is if people want to play a variant opn the system they can -but I like the present system
Well, I think we're all agreeing the system is fine as it is, it's more "what are ways to combat people who abuse the system" ..
j.,
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
To be honest my gaming group is relatively free of init sink obnoixousness, and the house rule was as much about changing the dynamic in favor of squadrons as it was about stopping I-stinking.
Certainly prefer alternating ships rather than the alternate turn style game (GW style), as you get more occasions to make tactical choices.
My problem with the chit system is that it removes a degree of choice from the game, replacing tactical choice with random chance. Yes, this may be more realistic, but it doesn't appeal to me. AFter all, if I wanted realistic naval combat, I'd be in the navy. This is a hobby for me that I do for fun.
Oh, Bostich, are you intending to just be insulting? Please let me know, so I can take appropriate offense, get upset, throw toys out of pram and otherwise give you the rise you might be trying to provoke. Your comment was somewhat rude, but not particularly well aimed, so not sure who your trying to insult, please be more specific.
Certainly prefer alternating ships rather than the alternate turn style game (GW style), as you get more occasions to make tactical choices.
My problem with the chit system is that it removes a degree of choice from the game, replacing tactical choice with random chance. Yes, this may be more realistic, but it doesn't appeal to me. AFter all, if I wanted realistic naval combat, I'd be in the navy. This is a hobby for me that I do for fun.
Oh, Bostich, are you intending to just be insulting? Please let me know, so I can take appropriate offense, get upset, throw toys out of pram and otherwise give you the rise you might be trying to provoke. Your comment was somewhat rude, but not particularly well aimed, so not sure who your trying to insult, please be more specific.
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Bostich: OK, I'll put the deuling swords back in the box.
Been that sort of a day, got made redundant so might be looking for insult. All sorted!
Been that sort of a day, got made redundant so might be looking for insult. All sorted!
