Alternative Bioscanners and Other Stuff

[Jame Rowe]

The way that bioscanners are presented in TMB sorta pisses me off because of the obscenely high TL (though the cybernetics do too, but I'll take care of those later), so I went and wrote up my own version of them, and made some other stuff while at it. No doubt this stuff can be expanded upon, so if anyone has suggestions I'm willing to listen.

Bioscanners
TL 9 3.5 Kg, 15,000 Cr, range of contact.
TL 10, 3 Kg, 25,000 Cr, range of contact but needs not touch.
TL 11, 2 Kg, 35,000 C, range of short/pistol.
TL 12, 1.5 Kg, 45,000 Cr, range of short/pistol, can be attached to computer.
TL 13, 1.2 Kg, 60,000 Cr, range of shotgun, computer-attachable.
TL 14, 0.8 Kg, 100,000 Cr, range of shotgun, computer-attachable.
TL 15, 0.5 Kg, 350,000 Cr, range of rifle, computer-attachable.

Grav Truck
Civilian Grav Truck: TL 10, Flyer (Grav) skill, Agl +0, speed 300 KPH, 1 driver and either 14 passengers, 6 tons cargo, or 6 passengers and accommodations. Closed, sealed. No weapons, may be modified to have either a Machine Gun or a laser. Armor 4, hull 4, structure 3. 400,000 Cr. Displaces 6 tons.

Military Grav Truck
TL 10, Flyer (Grav), Agl +0, speed 400 KPH, 1 driver, 1 gunner, 9 troops or 4 tons cargo. Closed, sealed. Triple laser or triple MG turret. Armor 18, hull 5, structure 5. 650,000 Cr. Displaces 6 tons.

Low-TL Weapons
Sword TL 1, Melee (Large Blade), dmg 3d6+2, heft 1, mass 2. Cr 150.

Bow
TL 0, Archery, Range Assault Weapon, 1d6+3, no auto, Recoil 0, Mass 1, Magazine 1. Cr 40.
TL 1, Archery, Range Rifle, 2d6+1, no auto, Recoil 1, Mass 1, Magazine 1. Cr 60.
TL 2, Archery, Range Rifle, 2d6+3, no auto, Recoil 1, Mass 1, Magazine 1. Cr 70.
TL 7, Archery, Range Rifle, 3d6, no auto, Recoil 1, Mass 1, Magazine 1. Cr 75.

Crossbow
TL 1, Crossbow, Range Rifle, 1d6+3, no auto, Recoil 1, Mass 3, Magazine 1. Cr 65.
TL 2, Crossbow, Range Rifle, 2d6+1, no auto, Recoil 2, Mass 3, Magazine 1. Cr 75.
TL 1, Crossbow, Range Rifle, 2d6+4, no auto, Recoil 1, Mass 3, Magazine 6. Cr 300.

As always, comments (the constructive ones) are welcome.

 

[rust]

I suspect that even these values for a TL 9 Bioscanner might be a bit un-
realistic.

If you listen to the people who are currently working on bionics, "labs on
a chip" and thelike, a mass produced TL9 Bioscanner could well be signifi-
cantly smaller than 3.5 kg and much less expensive than 15,000 Credits,
I think.

Sadly the Traveller technology is, in my view, completely out of touch with
the real world biotechnology developments, and therefore ignores what I
consider the most important technology innovations of the near future.

Someone who had done a little research on bionics and biotechnology
would most probably have written a completely different equipment sec-
tion for Traveller - but unfortunately one that would no longer be compa-
tible with the classical OTU.

 

[AndrewW]

Military Grav Truck
TL 10, Flyer (Grav), Agl +0, speed 400 KPH, 1 driver, 1 gunner, 9 troops or 4 tons cargo. Closed, sealed. Triple laser or triple MG turret. Armor 18, hull 5, structure 5. 650,000 Cr. Displaces 6 tons.

Gun ports for any troops that may be inside to fire from? Maybe call it an APC (Armored Personal Carrier) instead.

 

[captainjack23]

Scouts should have some interesting stuff. X fingers.

 

[aspqrz]

The way that bioscanners are presented in TMB sorta pisses me off because of the obscenely high TL (though the cybernetics do too, but I'll take care of those later), so I went and wrote up my own version of them, and made some other stuff while at it. No doubt this stuff can be expanded upon, so if anyone has suggestions I'm willing to listen.

Bioscanners
TL 9 3.5 Kg, 15,000 Cr, range of contact.
TL 10, 3 Kg, 25,000 Cr, range of contact but needs not touch.
TL 11, 2 Kg, 35,000 C, range of short/pistol.
TL 12, 1.5 Kg, 45,000 Cr, range of short/pistol, can be attached to computer.
TL 13, 1.2 Kg, 60,000 Cr, range of shotgun, computer-attachable.
TL 14, 0.8 Kg, 100,000 Cr, range of shotgun, computer-attachable.
TL 15, 0.5 Kg, 350,000 Cr, range of rifle, computer-attachable.

So, in your take on the real world (tm) things get more expensive in real terms as they increase in tech level.

Just like computers ...

Er.

Wait a minute.

Computers have become less expensive, in real terms, as they increase in tech level.

An Apple IIe (including monochrome monitor, dot matrix printer and external 5.25" disk drive [with 180k single sided disks]) and a whole 64k of memory cost me A$2000 in 1980 ... when, as a young teacher (4th year) I earned around A$12000 pa -- 16% of salary.

By your progression the current model IBM compatible I have (4 MB memory, 22" colour LCD monitor, 1 TB internal hard drive(s), 2 CD/RW drives, and Inkjet Printer), which *actually* cost $3000 should have cost (assuming the IIe was TL7 and we are currently TL9) $4700 or thereabouts. On a wage of (if I were still a 4th year teacher) of c. A$60,000 -- 5% of Salary.

Tech progressions, especially when allowing for the relative drop in prices because of higher productivity and higher relative wages would mean, at worst, the TL15 one would cost a fraction of the price you indicate.

This makes your suggestions ... strange ... to put it mildly. Completely at variance with our experience with the relative price progression of high tech items.

Phil

 

[captainjack23]

The way that bioscanners are presented in TMB sorta pisses me off because of the obscenely high TL (though the cybernetics do too, but I'll take care of those later), so I went and wrote up my own version of them, and made some other stuff while at it. No doubt this stuff can be expanded upon, so if anyone has suggestions I'm willing to listen.

Bioscanners
TL 9 3.5 Kg, 15,000 Cr, range of contact.
TL 10, 3 Kg, 25,000 Cr, range of contact but needs not touch.
TL 11, 2 Kg, 35,000 C, range of short/pistol.
TL 12, 1.5 Kg, 45,000 Cr, range of short/pistol, can be attached to computer.
TL 13, 1.2 Kg, 60,000 Cr, range of shotgun, computer-attachable.
TL 14, 0.8 Kg, 100,000 Cr, range of shotgun, computer-attachable.
TL 15, 0.5 Kg, 350,000 Cr, range of rifle, computer-attachable.

So, in your take on the real world (tm) things get more expensive in real terms as they increase in tech level.

Just like computers ...

Er.

Wait a minute.

Computers have become less expensive, in real terms, as they increase in tech level.

An Apple IIe (including monochrome monitor, dot matrix printer and external 5.25" disk drive [with 180k single sided disks]) and a whole 64k of memory cost me A$2000 in 1980 ... when, as a young teacher (4th year) I earned around A$12000 pa -- 16% of salary.

By your progression the current model IBM compatible I have (4 MB memory, 22" colour LCD monitor, 1 TB internal hard drive(s), 2 CD/RW drives, and Inkjet Printer), which *actually* cost $3000 should have cost (assuming the IIe was TL7 and we are currently TL9) $4700 or thereabouts. On a wage of (if I were still a 4th year teacher) of c. A$60,000 -- 5% of Salary.

Tech progressions, especially when allowing for the relative drop in prices because of higher productivity and higher relative wages would mean, at worst, the TL15 one would cost a fraction of the price you indicate.

This makes your suggestions ... strange ... to put it mildly. Completely at variance with our experience with the relative price progression of high tech items.

Phil

Cutting edge stuff is still pricey. The cost break comes as the better variants of the base product starts to lag behind the cutting edge, but still exceed the base comparison.

The Apple IIe was a top of the line niche item, early tech 7. A more reasonable comparison would be to a screaming quad dual processor desktop, with a raid array, maxed out advanced RAM and super high end graphics - which can easily run 13,000 + , or about 16% of a 80K salary. And it might qualify for tech 8.

One can buy a cheap marine Radar that is about as good as a military cutting edge radar from tech 5/6 for a couple hundred dollars; way less than it cost the government in WW2, and it's way smaller; but, a cutting edge military radar system....well, you can imagine its still a bit pricey.

 

[aspqrz]

The Apple IIe was a top of the line niche item, early tech 7. A more reasonable comparison would be to a screaming quad dual processor desktop, with a raid array, maxed out advanced RAM and super high end graphics - which can easily run 13,000 + , or about 16% of a 80K salary. And it might qualify for tech 8.

One can buy a cheap marine Radar that is about as good as a military cutting edge radar from tech 5/6 for a couple hundred dollars; way less than it cost the government in WW2, and it's way smaller; but, a cutting edge military radar system....well, you can imagine its still a bit pricey.

Yeah, sure.

However, compare the functionality of the Apple IIe vs a modern cutting edge personal computer ... versus the minimal increase in functionality for the bioscanners proposed for massive increases in cost.

Then also consider who on earth in Traveller is going to buy that 350,000 Cr (US$825,000) Bioscanner.

This isn't some Monty Haul DnD game where that'd be small change from the PC's next raid on a Dragon horde ... this is something that will resemble the "Real World" (tm).

Apart from cutting edge research in some University or Government Lab somewhere, for someone with money to waste on something that offers such minimal improvement for maxed out cost, what are actual PCs gonna buy in the "Real World" ... something for a lot less than $825,000 with only slightly less functionality.

Just like today I'll buy the computer I described whereas back in 1980 all I could buy was the Apple IIe.

Listing things with minimal or no real improvement over previous models at massive increases in price is great if you're running a game where the PCs are government agents with an unlimited budget but for the typical Traveller Free Trader campaign its a nonsense.

Even Spycraft would make the utility of such a device ... minimal ...

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

Actually, the problem is created by the completely broken nature of economics of any description in Traveller.

We're meant to believe that at TL9 a Bioscanner costs 15,000 Cr (US$37,500) ... and that an "Average" Standard of Living is 1200 Cr a month (US$3000 per month).

Then we're meant to believe that a TL15 Bioscanner costs 350,000 Cr (US$825,000) ... and that an "Average" Standard of Living is 1200 Cr a month (US$3000 per month).

See the problem.

When I started teaching in 1977, a first year Teacher's salary was A$10,414 pa ... now? Its around A$55,000.

According to the inflation rate, $10414 1977$ works out as approx $36500 2008$. So wages have increased 200% more than they should have adjusted by inflation ... and I can assure you that, relative to a whole grab bag of similar professional salaries in Australia, teacher's salaries have gone up by *less* than the average (we've just fought a moderately bitter pay case and all the facts and figures were trotted out ad nauseam) for the period. So I am being conservative.

A $2000 Apple IIe in 1980 would be worth, as a straight inflation modified value, $5000 today (that's A$, multiply by 0.6 to get equivalent US$ prices).

As a percentage of salary? Around 20% in 1980. At inflation adjusted terms, around 10% today.

Assuming a similar sort of wage progression, we could reasonably assume that wages will go up at roughly 500% over TL7-TL9, which would mean that 1200 Cr "Average" SoL at TL7 would be 6000 Cr SoL at TL9.

If TLs represent some level of real technological change (and the historical ones all do) then there is (and for the historical ones there is) always going to be a significant change in wages compared to costs ... that is, wages go up relative to prices. Without exception.

The increase is always quite significant ... though, of course, when looking at the "lower" TLs the difference isn't obvious to modern eyes since the overall SoL is so grindingly low.

What the Cost of Living Chart should have done, something, from memory, that was done in one of the GURPS Traveller supplements (tho I had issues with the methodology and conclusions, as did many others, at least it was an attempt to come to grips with the issue) and, IIRC, one of the MegaTraveller supplements, was, of course, to have a multiplier for Cost of Living at different TLs.

Someone with 1200 Cr Imperial at TL1 is living the local equivalent of an omnipotent god lifestyle while at TL15 it's strictly povvo.

Doing it the other way, having a modifier for prices, doesn't work anywhere realistically at all.

Overall, this is what makes the prices for Bioscanners and anything else available across a variety of Tech Levels quite ... ridiculous :shock:

Phil

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

To defend Jame, he did just follow the progressions that are shown in the books. He didn't make the rules, he just followed them.

 

[Jame Rowe]

To defend Jame, he did just follow the progressions that are shown in the books. He didn't make the rules, he just followed them.

Yes, exactly. If I were to do it the way I really want, I'd have it begin at about 50,000 Cr and get cheaper. Edit: Oh, and I think I may have presumed a base of TL 11-13. So a TL 15 bioscanner may well be that expensive, for a TL 12 citizen...

Military Grav Truck
TL 10, Flyer (Grav), Agl +0, speed 400 KPH, 1 driver, 1 gunner, 9 troops or 4 tons cargo. Closed, sealed. Triple laser or triple MG turret. Armor 18, hull 5, structure 5. 650,000 Cr. Displaces 6 tons.

Gun ports for any troops that may be inside to fire from? Maybe call it an APC (Armored Personal Carrier) instead.

Hadn't thought about it, actually. Yes, it does; it's subsumed into the cost of armor. The civilian version doesn't, since it's just a small grav-truck.

 

[captainjack23]

The Apple IIe was a top of the line niche item, early tech 7. A more reasonable comparison would be to a screaming quad dual processor desktop, with a raid array, maxed out advanced RAM and super high end graphics - which can easily run 13,000 + , or about 16% of a 80K salary. And it might qualify for tech 8.

One can buy a cheap marine Radar that is about as good as a military cutting edge radar from tech 5/6 for a couple hundred dollars; way less than it cost the government in WW2, and it's way smaller; but, a cutting edge military radar system....well, you can imagine its still a bit pricey.

Yeah, sure.

However, compare the functionality of the Apple IIe vs a modern cutting edge personal computer ... versus the minimal increase in functionality for the bioscanners proposed for massive increases in cost.

Then also consider who on earth in Traveller is going to buy that 350,000 Cr (US$825,000) Bioscanner.

This isn't some Monty Haul DnD game where that'd be small change from the PC's next raid on a Dragon horde ... this is something that will resemble the "Real World" (tm).

Apart from cutting edge research in some University or Government Lab somewhere, for someone with money to waste on something that offers such minimal improvement for maxed out cost, what are actual PCs gonna buy in the "Real World" ... something for a lot less than $825,000 with only slightly less functionality.

Just like today I'll buy the computer I described whereas back in 1980 all I could buy was the Apple IIe.

Listing things with minimal or no real improvement over previous models at massive increases in price is great if you're running a game where the PCs are government agents with an unlimited budget but for the typical Traveller Free Trader campaign its a nonsense.

Even Spycraft would make the utility of such a device ... minimal ...

Phil

I was assuming that the high level bioscanners would be mainly for research and milspec use. Although the boom in commercial and recreational night vision equipment suggests that won't always be the case.
So, we obviously are looking at this from two different directions. Cost for cutting edge vs cost for function; plus it seems that your main issue is the rules system - and I've learned that that it isn't useful to mix theory about real world systems with presentation of the rules to implement them.

Jame's description of the functional increase is rules based, and yes, the rules of traveller really are wonky when one considers tech increase. But, as long as traveller still has its amazingly non-linear tech increase, and odd assumptions about economics it's going to be hard to discuss accuracy.

So, yes, an equiv computer for what an apple II could do is about 4-500 $ with peripherals; and really is mostly for the case, monitor and keyboard.
By tech 8 or 9 they should be essentially free and , I dunno, a biological implant, or a floating personal admin nanobot. Without starting a "what is traveller fight" it really seems to me that realistic extrapolation of the future isn't traveller's brief .[/quote]


edit: clarified what was "wonky"

 

[aspqrz]

To defend Jame, he did just follow the progressions that are shown in the books. He didn't make the rules, he just followed them.

Um.

"To be fair, Lemmings just follow the lead and all die because the first one jumps over the cliff"

Hardly a recommendation, I would have thought :wink:

I understand what you're saying, it just ... annoys ... me.

Sure, in most games ... "most" games probably not running for more than a year or so, if that, it doesn't matter at all.

However, if you have (or want to try for) a long term campaign, the inconsistencies will inevitably cause problems one way or another ... eiither because you let the players "solve" them, which will inevitably bend the background out of all resemblance to the OTU (not a bad thing to my mind, but, agreed, a problem to some ... few? many? most?) or because they start to realise that you're railroading them from "logical" solutions to the issues to prevent them changing anything

But I suspect long term campaigns are relatively rare, so it probably doesn't make any difference to most players or GMs.

Intellectually annoying to me, but, hey, who cares 8)

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

... it seems that your main issue is the rules system - and I've learned that that it isn't useful to mix theory about real world systems with presentation of the rules to implement them.

Not really.

Other iterations of Traveller ... GURPS Traveller and, IIRC, Megatraveller, at least *attempted* to come to grips with cross TL prices and wages.

I, personally, think the attempts were flawed, but they did work, after a fashion, and gave at least the inkling of a feel of how the real world would (and has, historically) reacted to such things.

I strongly suspect that there will be some more on dealing with this problem in the eventual Mongoose version of Merchant Prince or, at least, I hope there will be. I suspect even the absolutely no change to the OTU" purists will probably want it, too.

I just think it really wouldn't have hurt to include a simplified version in the core rules. YMMV of course.

Phil

 

[kristof65]

One of the things I've found helpful to do when trying to work out prices for equipment across tech levels isn't to try and compare a certain of level of relative performance, but to ask What can $1000 (or whatever amount) buy me?"

Frex, the previous example of an Apple II vs a high end computer today is a lot harder to work out than figuring out the relative performance differences in computers that you could get by spending $1000.

In 1984, a $1000 would buy you a C64 with a 5.25 floppy disk drive that has to be hooked to a TV and no software. Today that same $1000 will buy you a pretty nice laptop, preinstalled with an OS, and probably a decent office suite of software, and maybe even a printer. In the late 90s, that $1000 would have barely gotten you a decent desktop with an OS.

For the most part, I think the progression of pricing for equipment should pretty much be the highest price for the first 1-2 TLs that the equipment appears, then about 3/4 to 1/2 that for the next TL, and then stabilizing at 1/3 to 1/10 for the remaining TLs, with size getting smaller, and capabilities bigger - something like this*:

TL8 5000CR 10kg
TL9 2500CR 8kg
TL10 1000CR 4kg
TL11 1000CR 2kg
TL12 1000CR 1kg
TL13 1000CR 0.5kg
TL14 1000CR 0.25kg
TL15 1000CR 0.1kg

This is for off-the-shelf, commonly available versions of the equipment. Cutting edge stuff at each TL will cost more, and weight and capabilities will be more in line with the TL's above.



*Note this table is to show my idea of a ideal progression, it isn't for any specific peice of equipment.

 

[rust]

Other iterations of Traveller ... GURPS Traveller and, IIRC, Megatraveller, at least *attempted* to come to grips with cross TL prices and wages.

I found the way GURPS Traveller handled the problem quite useful, espe-
cially after I made some comparatively minor changes to adapt the sy-
stem to the specific situation in my setting.

It seems to me that the GURPS system only begins to break down when
there are extreme differences in the technology levels - and thereby the
wealth levels and living standards - of planets within the same political
and economic entity (so, yes, it would become problematic in the OTU -
but the economy of the OTU is hugely implausible anyways).

Besides, even the very simple conversion table in CT Trillion Credit Squa-
dron is a good way to make the economy of a setting at least somewhat
more plausible by generating prices acording to technology levels.

 

[DCAnsell]

In MTU, I handle this in a fairly simple way, if only because my players would bludgeon me if I tried to get too complex.

So: TL of introduction (TLOI) - full price
TLOI +1 - half price
TLOI +2 or more - 1/4 price

I don't change weights of equipment items, or other stats, unless someone specifically looks for a more advanced bit of gear, in which case we negotiate, but usually it boils down to 1/2 weight or better stats/capacity = double the price it would be at that tech level.

Three other bits I use, as well:
1. Mustering out benefits are always TL 12 or less
2. If an item has to be imported from off-world cost doubles
3. If the location where the purchase takes place is especially isolated, cost doubles. Numbers 2 and 3 are cumulative, so buying items on backwater planets where everything is shipped in cost four times what it would elsewhere.

 

[AndrewW]

In 1984, a $1000 would buy you a C64 with a 5.25 floppy disk drive that has to be hooked to a TV and no software. Today that same $1000 will buy you a pretty nice laptop, preinstalled with an OS, and probably a decent office suite of software, and maybe even a printer. In the late 90s, that $1000 would have barely gotten you a decent desktop with an OS.

$1,000 back then would have bought more then just the C64 and 1541 disk drive. Could have thrown in a printer and monitor for that and still had some leftover.

 

[kristof65]

In 1984, a $1000 would buy you a C64 with a 5.25 floppy disk drive that has to be hooked to a TV and no software. Today that same $1000 will buy you a pretty nice laptop, preinstalled with an OS, and probably a decent office suite of software, and maybe even a printer. In the late 90s, that $1000 would have barely gotten you a decent desktop with an OS.

$1,000 back then would have bought more then just the C64 and 1541 disk drive. Could have thrown in a printer and monitor for that and still had some leftover.

I had to go back and look at my year book to see when I took my high school electronics class. 1982 would have been the correct year for a C64 and disk drive at $1000. I know that, because a friend of mine's grandfather donated $1000 to the electronics lab specifically so they could buy a computer, and that is all the electronics teacher got for the money. A year or two later, and they had come down considerably in price. I know I spent about $600 for my C64 setup a couple years later.

All that is beside the point. Take $1000 and look at any period of time - what you get for the money changes considerably.

 

[GypsyComet]

In 1984, a $1000 would buy you a C64 with a 5.25 floppy disk drive that has to be hooked to a TV and no software. Today that same $1000 will buy you a pretty nice laptop, preinstalled with an OS, and probably a decent office suite of software, and maybe even a printer. In the late 90s, that $1000 would have barely gotten you a decent desktop with an OS.

$1,000 back then would have bought more then just the C64 and 1541 disk drive. Could have thrown in a printer and monitor for that and still had some leftover.

Of course, by "printer" you mean a noisy and slow dot-matrix. The first commercial laser printer was still a year away and would cost $5000, and ink-jets were years away. The monitor was monochrome (though you could get fuzzy color on a converted TV), and the floppy disk used rather delicate media that stored a whopping 320 kilobytes. The hardshell floppies were introduced to the market at the end of 1984, as was the mouse. Personal scale hard drives were a couple years away still, and would start at a magnanimous 10 megabytes of capacity for a stupid amount of money.

 

[aspqrz]

One of the things I've found helpful to do when trying to work out prices for equipment across tech levels isn't to try and compare a certain of level of relative performance, but to ask What can $1000 (or whatever amount) buy me?"

Frex, the previous example of an Apple II vs a high end computer today is a lot harder to work out than figuring out the relative performance differences in computers that you could get by spending $1000.

In 1984, a $1000 would buy you a C64 with a 5.25 floppy disk drive that has to be hooked to a TV and no software. Today that same $1000 will buy you a pretty nice laptop, preinstalled with an OS, and probably a decent office suite of software, and maybe even a printer. In the late 90s, that $1000 would have barely gotten you a decent desktop with an OS.

For the most part, I think the progression of pricing for equipment should pretty much be the highest price for the first 1-2 TLs that the equipment appears, then about 3/4 to 1/2 that for the next TL, and then stabilizing at 1/3 to 1/10 for the remaining TLs, with size getting smaller, and capabilities bigger - something like this*:

TL8 5000CR 10kg
TL9 2500CR 8kg
TL10 1000CR 4kg
TL11 1000CR 2kg
TL12 1000CR 1kg
TL13 1000CR 0.5kg
TL14 1000CR 0.25kg
TL15 1000CR 0.1kg

This is for off-the-shelf, commonly available versions of the equipment. Cutting edge stuff at each TL will cost more, and weight and capabilities will be more in line with the TL's above.

*Note this table is to show my idea of a ideal progression, it isn't for any specific peice of equipment.

Yes. A very cogent series of points. I largely (95%) agree.

If only something like it was used in Traveller :wink:

Phil