WWII Evo?

[soulman]

Hi all its Alan calling, i was one of the playtesters for WW2 Evo sometime ago, we looked at about 3-4 waves etc...

One of the ideas i had, but i think nobody really got back to me about it, was about bolt action rifles, and semi auto m1`s etc...

My idea for bolt action was simple...

BOLT ACTION
This weapon suppress`s on a 3+ not 2+ as standed...

This would show the slow rate of fire, you can then add to the range of the weapon to show that people had to aim more to hit..

IE/
KA98 RANGE 30"
DAMAGE : 1D6
TRAITS : BOLT ACTION

As for SMG`S
like modern in Evo which is 2D6, the more recoil or smaller barrel etc, the shorter the range.

As for the semi auto weapons, keep then at 1D6 per action, as its the same rate of fire as a pistol..

WEAPON TABLE : USA

45.COLT PISTOL
RANGE 10"
DAMAGE 1D6

GREASE GUN
RANGE 10"
DAMAGE 2D6

THOMPSON
RANGE 15" ( HAD STOCK TO AIM )
DAMAGE 2D6

M1 CARBINE
RANGE 20"
DAMAGE 1D6

M1 RIFLE 24"
DAMAGE 1D6

SPRINGFIELD BOLT ACTION
RANGE 40"
DAMAGE 1D6
" SUPPRESS ON 3+ "


WEAPON TABLE : BRITISH

PISTOL
RANGE 10"
DAMAGE 1D6

STEN GUN
RANGE 10"
DAMAGE 2D6


LEE ENFIELD BOLT ACTION
RANGE 30"
DAMAGE 1D6
" SUPPRESS ON 3+ "

BREN
RANGE 30"
DAMAGE 2D6"
" A ready action, means laying prone etc, and adds maybe a extra 1D6, or extra 10" range.


Anyway as people say keep it simple etc, somebody please playtest the bolt action rule and let me know, it seems right and simple to me....

Cheers all, and keep up the good work
Alan

 

[Anpu42]

I like

 

[The Old Soldier]

While not a strong as making the Suppression after the removal of models, the applling DD with only a 3+ instead of a 2+ is a good subtle change and will work very well.

The only area I still have a small quibble with is Submachine guns in general. These were full automatic weapons that were extremely inaccurate at any distance. Good a suppressing at short ranges. The Thompson while having a stock still was at heart a submachine gun and should not have a longer range, if you plan to keep the dice a 2xD6. Lower all to 8 inches and if you MUST make a difference with the Thompson make it 10" range.

Another reasoning for the short ranges for submachine guns were they are mainly built up areas weapons. That and from a game play purpose, you may be shooting yourself in the foot, when you are fielding entire units that are armed with submachine guns. (Russian Guard anyone?)

Other than that, good work.

 

[Pietia]

The Thompson while having a stock still was at heart a submachine gun and should not have a longer range, if you plan to keep the dice a 2xD6. Lower all to 8 inches and if you MUST make a difference with the Thompson make it 10" range.

Hm... Sten had a stock (collapsible), PPSH had a stock, Grease Gun had a stock (collapsible), German MPs had stocks. If you look hard enough, you'll learn that even some pistols could have stocks attached. TOS is right - don't make the Thompson into a super weapon.

Another reasoning for the short ranges for submachine guns were they are mainly built up areas weapons. That and from a game play purpose, you may be shooting yourself in the foot, when you are fielding entire units that are armed with submachine guns. (Russian Guard anyone?)

Not only built up area weapons, Russians were using them in assaults outside urban areas, and they worked quite well.

 

[soulman]

Hello all its alan calling a quick one before bed..!!!!

Pleased you liked my ideas, sleep on them and toss some dice around at the weekend and see what you feel like...

I like the idea of 3+ to suppress with bolt action, its also easy to say to somebody
" semi and full auto, suppress on 2+, if you have any bolt action its 3+ "
1`s are not counted....etc,etc....

IDEAS....

1. Any mg`s or weapons that can jam, or overheat, maybe if more then 2 x 1`s are rolled you need 2 actions to fix it or just 1 action with a assist gunner/loader..?


2. morters etc...
firer rolls 1d6 to see there the shot lands, the target rolls a 1d10...
If you have somebody calling the rounds in, both roll, then both roll 1d6, walking in rounds for following actions, firer rolls a 1d10, the target rolls a 1d6, meaning that you rounds should be on or close to the target..

" Hope that makes sense, this time of night.." !!!!!

NOTES...
Lets work on the bolt action rifles, and smgs ( semi auto stays at d6 per action etc ).

The only thing i was thinking off, was at longer ranges, people with smg`s would switch only to aiming and firing single shot, so you could have 2 ranges, short for 2d6 attack, and longer for 1d6.

MY REASONS

In war films, i never see the smg guy not shoot because he`s out of range, he justs shoots single shot to support the rifle guys, its only at close range he`s deadly...

In my Ghost recon skimish system based on evo, i have a trait called auto, which means all assault rifles get to use 2d6 at half range

IE/
AK range 20"
Damage 1D6

Trait : AUTO - can fire using 2D6 upto 10", and 1D6 upto 20"

For WW2 smg`s etc you could have the following

STEN GUN
RANGE 20"
DAMAGE 1D6

TRAIT : BURST - can fire with 2D6 up to 10"

Do please have a think on this idea, maybe watch a couple of war films or band of brothers, and you see what i mean...

If not we can Bin this idea and stick to finishing the bolt action rules etc...

Cheers all

Alan

 

[The Old Soldier]

My god MAN!! Never make the rules based on what you saw in a war movie!!! That and I never heard of a sumachine gun that could fire one round at a time!! I could be wrong, but I really doubt it.

Jamming of MGs should only be used IF the weapons was noteworthy of doing just that. Otherwise don't use it.

Mortars should be classified by type. Some are extemely light such as the Japan's knee mortar. These should be semi direct fire weapons. Others would use LOS from other units. The main rule book from BFE could be used as is with drift being cut down to a D6 with LOS.

SMG should basically be all the same 8" 2xD6. Don't mess with that formula please. And stop watching war movies, and read a good book on the subject.

 

[soulman]

Morning Old soldier........

Don`t worry i read alot of good books, as well as Movies too

Thompson can be fired semi,but i cannot find a book with ranges at the moment, of course its a short ranged weapon, but since the tabletop battlefield is smaller anyway..

I will drop that idea to keep the threads moving forward

Yes mortars should be like Dropped bombs from Evo...

Well its friday, lets see what the rest say by the end of the day on bolt action etc....

Alan

 

[Richgo22]

Very nice suggestions made. . . very good.

I like supression on 3+ instead of 2+ for bolt actions. Very smooth rule.

I would give .44 and bigger pistols and SMG (Thompson) a +1 (.44+ pistol 1W6+1, Thompson 2W6+1). But let the range be the same for all pistols and SMGs (6 or 8 inches).

I would differ the Bren and BAR more from "real" MGs, like we did before in this tread.

I back up TOS, WWII Evo should be more than paint job for BFE. It has to generate its own feeling to be successful.

The rules suggested this far realy rock. They would be worth a game of its own.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Richgo22, Now please, I do not want to sound like a know it all. Because I am not. But the Thompson would not have any more strenght than the other weapons of it's time. Sure the bullet is large, but it doesn't kill any more or less than other weapons. The +1 on a firearm should only be used or powerful MGs such as the .50 cal. Otherwise you would have the thompson able to chew thru light and some medium armor.

Other than that, we are in agreement.

 

[duskdealer]

i agree with what's being said, but when looking at setting up MGs, German Falschrimjager (paratroops) used to brace MGs on the loader's shoulder to quicken the process.

Simple solution to SMGs would be to give them two profiles.

Long range profile being mostly ineffectual to represent short controlled bursts given as supporting fore to riflemen

Short range profile being the dreadly sustained bursts that people think of.

As Old soldier says the .45ACP round of the Thompson may be heavier slightly but damage would be negligable, and accuracy was worse. There is a reason we now use 5.56mm rounds in automatic weapons. Lower caliberes are more accurate.

 

[soulman]

Yes indeed to that, i don`t like adding any extra to the standed D6 dice, as the only problem with evo is the 2 for 1 roll, since hitting and damaging your target is one roll, one does not balance the other...

I had this chat months ago with the ww2 playtesters about main tank guns on ww2 tanks etc...

Thats the nice thing about TRAITS, they flesh out the basic rules...

In my ghost recon games, any bullets upto 9mm are WEAK, which is a +1 to the armour roll, and something like the P90 has AP, which is a -1 to the same roll, 5.56 stays has a standed roll of course.

The above is my own evo system, so don`t get it mixed up with standed evo...

All we need to do is take the 2 page evo basic rules, add BOLT ACTION rules if you like them of suppress on 3+
ADD
Using grenades in open areas....

Once that is done, lets work on one army at a time, infantry only, we can start on the 3 major ones
USA
BRITISH
GERMAN

work on the infantry squad-command-support( mg, anti tank,mortar) -sniper.

Do this for all 3, then work on 2 tanks each maybe....

Should get it all done in under a week tops....

Before monday, lets fix "Bolt action ", semi auto stays the same at 1d6 per action, and smg`s/auto at 2d6 per action.

I guess work on usa or germans first..?

Over to you, time for a bath....

 

[duskdealer]

agreed to working on infantry first as these are the core of any army.

Could you give bolt action the 3+ suppression as they are slower firing, but in keeping with your idea for ghost recon give them AP due to the more accurate fire that they can deliver, this would see them balanced out in the long run, with the more rapid firing semi autos cancelled out by the accuracy of more controlled rifle fire from a bolt/lever action.

Definately think traits are needed to help distinguish similar weapons.

 

[soulman]

Hi dustdealer, pleased you like the suppression on 3+, it now means the 2+ of the semi auto means a higher rate of fire, and then going into 2d6 and 2+ for smg`s.

So with one simple idea we have 3 different weapons.

The only thing is the mp44 assault rifle, since its a long range smg type weapon, do we give it 2d6, and a say 15" to 20" range..?

We could give it a range on say 12" with 2d6, and 1d6" upto 24"

Less dice rolling then adding extreme range to it...

One trait i use for modern assault rifles is 2d6 for half range..
Ie/
M4
20" range
damage 1d6
Trait : burst
2d6 up to 10"

This shows people go auto at closer ranges, and with more recoil only at close range too.

I don`t mind adding extra range only on the 2d6 mp44 if you wish...

Over to you DD

 

[Richgo22]

When we come to WW2, which peroid and theatre is to be taken? MP44 ist quite late. I would not differ the MP44 too much form modern assault rifles, to maintain game balance (the gun is still elected one of the best guns in the world).

After all, I agree on you thoughts on the Thompson. It is best to keep things simple rulewise. I did not thought of the narrow stat window in Evo and the armour penetration effect a +1 would have.

I would streamline the weapons stats as much as possible. Better leave the traits ot the troopers. The only thing, as mentioned before, is the difference betwenn "light" MGs, like Bren and BAR, and the MG 34 and 42. That would be the big differnce between German and Allied infantry forces in weapon terms.

SMGs never should get the set up rule.

Grenades in the open can be handeld as the greandes in BFE. Let them have a 3 inch fire zone and a range of 6 inches. Roll a D6-1 for every model in the fire zone for grenades in the open, to differn them from grenades in structures (which make the concission worse). Every hit counts as two for ssupression.
This could be added to BFE as an optional rule too.

 

[The Old Soldier]

If you don't set a year or at least a campaign guideline BEFORE you make the stats and special features for the army list first, you just are spinning your wheels with stats. Lot of wasted time and energy.

 

[Pietia]

Yes, plan big but start small, guys. The project is going to grow fast anyway - if you don't get bored and stop working on it after a week or so...

 

[duskdealer]

agreed, need to pick a theatre, or two. Think D-day would be a good starting point as it involves UK USA and Germany, the three most played armies.

Perhaps stat up a US army section, a british rifle section and a wermarcht infantry section as test units for play testing, and then look as bringing in the big boys, the Falscrimjager,US rangers , commandoes, paratroops and the like.

 

[Anpu42]

I think Africa would be a better Starting place.
It was the Place that the Germans still had Honor and Respect. It also alows you to Run a long term Capain and not have it end in a year.

 

[Richgo22]

1. I would start with Kursk and Stalingrad, mean eastern front. These (and others in this period 42-43) are the biggest, most decisive and most bloody battles of the war.
Both armies field now famous tanks, artillery and anti-tank guns. Even the infantry weapons of both sides are still famous. Every wargamer in the world has heard of the battles fought.

2. History: It is not true that the Wehrmacht did better or worse in Africa (there were historically proofed plans to eradicate the African coast jews). Rommel was a very political officer, but great pains were taken after the war to save the one "German hero officer". Efforts for genocide were taken in Africa, but did not come to life. Plans and orders were clear.
The "african honour stuff" is is a legend of the 70's. It is also true that the Wehrmacht commited mass murder in serveal war theatres (I will not comment on the fact that war is a bloody mess and other armies did and do the same).
The best German officers of the war (Manstein, Guderian) served in the eastern front (after France).

 

[soulman]

Once my normal computer comes back from repair, i can put together the stats etc i was testing with the mongoose boys for playtesting etc...

I did come up with a little list of TRAITS to flesh out each army etc...

I was on a website the other looking at WW2 weird war type stuff with zombies, and power armour, will make a nice spin once the standed ww2 rules are done....

I`m busy next weekend playing airsoft, but i have a army list of the basic forces for D-DAY etc, and well can go from there...

Unless COD4 on the 360 comes out of course..!!!