Beyond "TL 8 with Starships"

[Sigtrygg]

I agree, but this is where the big opportunity for campaign design comes in. We don't need to depend upon Mongoose or any other authority. Big opportunity for 3PPs. Clement Sector dips a toe in by saying that most worlds are completely distinct from one another and have very different cultures. I take this approach but then say that the mass of sophonts who regularly use interstellar travel are a culture distinct from any world, who understand the culture of travellers but leave a wide birth for other cultural differences. This takes a lot of work, and there is space for some 3PP to provide their view.

It's not so much the differences between cultures, at the same TL, I am talking about how cultures and societies change as TLs advance. Traveller long ago settled into "yanks in space" and hasn't really moved from that, despite the Third Imperium being very different to a liberal democracy.
American culture dominating Travellers regardless of TL or government type in the 57th century.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Just out of curiosity... What would be a better method for a point of reference for sophonts (us) who have never experienced any non-Earth-based civilizations?

Ability to utilise energy sources, tranport and materials technology, something like

Technology level	Energy generation	Transport	Materials	Communication
1	muscle	foot	stone, wood, leather	shout very loudly, drums
2	fire	animal, boat	textiles, brick, some metals	smoke, beacons
3	furnace, wind, water	wheeled, sail	metal smelting, ceramics, glass	semaphore
4	steam engine	rail, steamship, balloon	mass produced steel	optical telegraph
5	internal combustion	motor vehicles, airship	steel alloys	electric telegraph
6	electricity	aircraft, rockets	aluminium electrolysis, polymers	telephone, radio, TV
7	nuclear fission	stealth aircraft, reusable rockets	advanced composites	antisocial media
8	nuclear fusion	gravitics	transparent aluminium composites	neuralink

 

[Spirit of '77]

It's not so much the differences between cultures, at the same TL, I am talking about how cultures and societies change as TLs advance. Traveller long ago settled into "yanks in space" and hasn't really moved from that, despite the Third Imperium being very different to a liberal democracy.
American culture dominating Travellers regardless of TL or government type in the 57th century.

I was talking about both dimensions, tech and culture, as you are correct that tech also drives culture. And you are spot on about the rather dull state of the Third Imperium. A neo-feudal technocracy run by a Noble caste with unregulated MegaCorporations ought to be a lot more interesting and morally nebulous!

 

[Sigtrygg]

It was very much more interesting when you go back to Kinunir and its rumours table, adventure events, and library data. Research Station Gamma is pretty indicative of Imperial shenanigans, or even some of the Twilight's Peak rumours.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I was talking about both dimensions, tech and culture, as you are correct that tech also drives culture. And you are spot on about the rather dull state of the Third Imperium. A neo-feudal technocracy run by a Noble caste with unregulated MegaCorporations ought to be a lot more interesting and morally nebulous!

My problem is that when I game, I do not want to go to the same type of world We live in currently. For this reason I do not do a lot of dystopian games. Life is depressing enough. I can look out My window and see a world corrupted by the rich and powerful and squashing the people. So, when I run Traveller, some of those things exist, but they are mostly planetary and not interplanetary. The Megacorps may not care about people, but most of them aren't actively trying to enslave the galaxy, some yes, but it is more on the down-low on planets owned by the megacorps. Planetary problems, the Emperor turns a blind eye. Interstellar "enslavement" and the Emperor may yank their Imperial Charter. So, they stay in line, mostly, kinda, ish...lol... Same with the Nobility. Stay mostly in line or get your Patent of Nobility rescinded.

 

[CordwainerFish]

I stand by my longstanding complaint - associating years from our history with Traveller TLs was completely unnecessary and endlessly misleading.

Plus, I see no reason not to play Trav in the future of 1977. Interstellar travel is in and cyberpunk is out.

 

[Geir]

The current TL definition has had to be tweaked at every major edition. If you insist on Classic Traveller charts as canon, we should have reached TL10 in 2000:

View attachment 4064

We are CLEARLY in a different technological age than the 1970's, despite the lack of antigravity. I'll stand with more recent definitions of TL8 as the information age. In any case, a particular advance doesn't instantly develop as soon as the nominal date ticks over. Plenty of scope for early fusion and air/rafts to arrive in the next few decades.

If you carry that chart forward by decades, we'd be TL12 now.
Well. Hand computer (or is that TL11? - charts without lines are hard on my eyes). I got me one of those (hand computers, that is... I have eyes too, but never mind... But otherwise, not so much of the other stuff for TL11 or 12. Or 10 or 9, and only half of 8.

 

[Condottiere]

Not really.

You could make the assumption that seven was the magic number of default and averageness, and coincidentally, the termed decade when the game was published.

Technological level eight would be the anticipated next step in technological evolution.

Technological level twelve was the high point of the Second Imperium, and the start of the Third.

Technological level nine was step beyond, demonstrated by the interstellar travel through the understanding and application of gravitation.

 

[rinku]

As I said. Every edition has changed that chart.
Mongoose goes with "somewhere between 7 and 8".
I guess that's where we'll stay until we get commercially viable fusion, or antigravity, or reactionless drives, or FTL.
Just keep adding stuff to TL7 as required. AI, clones, print on demand equipment or body parts, anargathics...

 

[Condottiere]

In the meantime, Five Hundred Parsecs From Home.

 

[Sigtrygg]

"A pre-stellar society can reach orbit reliably and has telecommunications satellites. Computers and integrated circuits become ubiquitous. At the time of writing, Earth is currently somewhere between TL7 and TL8."
T CRB 2024

 

[dragon3r]

It's not so much the differences between cultures, at the same TL, I am talking about how cultures and societies change as TLs advance. Traveller long ago settled into "yanks in space" and hasn't really moved from that, despite the Third Imperium being very different to a liberal democracy.
American culture dominating Travellers regardless of TL or government type in the 57th century.

People write what they know, TL's, setting, is window dressing where the character's story takes pre-eminence, like this:

This is a work of Art
Art doesn't work here anymore. My brother Jim joined the Marines, came home in a box. I was selected for the Army, Dad just looked at me, 'Don't go' his eyes said, he couldn't lose another. I went, wasn't gonna be a coward, draft dodging Blue Falcon. After my tour, back home from fighting insurgents in a god forsaken hell hole, Dad was gone, two packs and a twelver a day had taken him. Sitting in his chair on the porch I looked out at Jim's rust bucket in the yard, on blocks, weeds growing up around it, Peepaw had picked her up new off the lot. Boy what a victory that day we got that old V8 roaring to life, all smoke, and fumes, the three of us covered in grease, and dirt.

Ma had made me a couple of sandwiches for the trip, I was off to the Scout Corps, didn't feel like hanging around my hometown, getting a job at the autofac. She made her best effort to smile, she had a new guy hanging around, and that's fine, this wasn't my home no more. After the Scouts, I guess I just drifted a while, then a guy came into the dive, said there was a 10 kay signing bonus for auxiliaries. That weren't nothing, so I signed up.

I don't know how it looks from the outside, maybe all starbucks and mickey d's (indeed I worked at one as a kid); though the story above connects with any American. Tells us why they are an adventurer, might not work for others, I don't know.

Easy though to translate in game: one term Army, one in the Scouts, and the last a drifter. Writing what you know is the simplest way to do it.

 

[Condottiere]

Science fiction tends to be a reflection, perspective, and commentary, on current society, and future trends.

 

[dragon3r]

There's a context, if the games have blanks, fill them in like mad libs. Both D&D and Trav are from the rust belt, so like when you see the book say: "Pre-Fabricated Cabin (6) Cr10,000. Modular unpressurized quarters ..." I mean, got a cluster just up the road, and those aren't too bad, only a few regular shootings, whatever else crime. Hear the sheriffs going up the road to there a bit. Indy/GenCon is only an hour south.

 

[Condottiere]

If you mean why so many scenarios feature deserted, and/or rural locations, less details to fill in.

 

[dragon3r]

Yes, usually something barren, or the opposite, an ultra futuristic urban environment. I like the "High Frontier" art from the 70's too, a lot of my games take place around these sort of communities.

Space Colony Artwork 1970s

 

[rinku]

Traveller and D&D have Midwest roots, though the former steel belt hadn't been widely seen as in trouble when they were laid down in the 70's.

You're probably on safe ground that the deindustrialisation of the belt, as well as the big stock market crash, influenced the Rebellion and TNE.

Mongoose was founded in Swindon in 2001, so I don't know how much of a Rust Belt aesthetic informs their take on things.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Swindon is in the affluent south and has seen very little of the industrial collapse that was forced upon other regions of the UK.

 

[Condottiere]

The show is a mockumentary based in a branch of fictional British paper company Wernham Hogg (where "life is stationery") located in the Slough Trading Estate. The branch is run by general manager David Brent (Ricky Gervais), aided by his team leader and Assistant to the Regional Manager Gareth Keenan (Mackenzie Crook).

Patrick Baladi as Neil Godwin:
Brent's counterpart at the Swindon branch and eventually his immediate superior. He is young, suave, handsome and hard-working, a more successful manager than Brent, and respected by his staff.

 

[Golan2072]

Do gravitics and fusion tech in MGT2 become significantly cheaper as the TL advances? (haven't explored CSC or the vehicle sourcebook yet...). My head canon is that at TL12, grav cars with full flight capabilities, which do not need refueling (Fusion+ cells last for a long time IIRC), are as commonplace as ground cars in TL7, and that by TL15, you will have floating buildings and cities everywhere. But I'm not sure how canonical the cheap gravitics and fusion are. TL8 Air/Rafts are very expensive, after all, too expensive to be ubiquitous among the general civilian population most likely.